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[MWS Natural]

Considering the prosecution has the power to refuse a limited amount of potential candidates I'm wondering if they screwed up or everyone else was clearly worse. If the latter, I would have a dim view of Florida.

Sanford, Florida Wiki:

Jackie Robinson in 1946
On October 23, 1945, the Brooklyn Dodgers announced that they had signed Jackie Robinson assigning him to their International League team, the Montreal Royals.
Branch Rickey, Brooklyn Dodgers General Manager believing he "knew" Florida, thought his team could train there ruffling as few feathers as possible. Robinson and his wife were instructed by Rickey not to try to stay at any Sanford hotels. He and his wife didn’t eat out at any restaurants not deemed “Negro restaurants." He didn't even dress in the same locker room as his teammates.
As soon as the citizenry became aware of Robinson's presence, the mayor of Sanford was confronted by a "large group of white residents" who "demanded that Robinson...be run out of town."

On March 5, 1946, the Royals were informed that they would not be permitted to take the field as an integrated group. Rickey was concerned for Robinson’s life and sent him to stay in Daytona Beach. His daughter, Sharon Robinson, remembered being told, "The Robinsons were run out of Sanford, Florida, with threats of violence."


In his 1993 book, "A Hard Road to Glory: A History Of The African American Athlete: Baseball" tennis great Arthur Ashe wrote in response, Rickey "moved the entire Dodger pre-season camp from Sanford, Florida, to Daytona Beach due to the oppressive conditions of Sanford.

 

[kirblar]

Well, you're gonna get yourself DEFINITELY killed instead of slim chance killed for starters. Heard the expression "don't bring a knife to gun fight"? Definitely don't bring your hands.

If I believe they are likely going to shoot given either option, only one gives a chance of preventing the shot.

 

[wildfire]

Didn't the dispatcher say "We don't need you to do that?"

Either way, the problem with constantly claiming that the police (the dispatcher is a civilian) ordered GZ to do something which he disobeyed is a misrepresentation of the truth. Using it as an argument muddles whatever other points you're making by essentially using a falsehood as part of your argument.

He should have listened to the dispatcher, but it's pretty obvious to me what he was thinking: "If I stay here, the fucker will get away, if I wait for the cops, the fucker will get away, I need to do something"

Again, not judging his actions, just viewing the situation objectively.

I already agreed with you it wasn't an order. I only disagree with you that the wording they use excuses Zimmerman electing to follow Martin.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

What's to say it wasn't because he was a hoodie-wearing teenager rather than a black hoodie-wearing teenager?

Who's to say? I can't tell you what would of happened beyond the fact he wouldn't have brought up the black burglars. The fact is in this case he thought it was a black teenager which lead him to build the narrative that he was one of the burglars.

 

[Pandaman]

He wasn't. Not sure why our reaction would be shocking to you.

Because it sounds like opting for suicide to keep yourself from dying.

Nevermind the assumption that you are indeed being stalked, nevermind the assumption that if you were the stalker means bodily harm. Let's assume you're being followed by jack the ripper dressed as jason vorhees. At what point does attacking someone with a weapon become a good idea? are you cornered or what?

Hell, even the responses given betray the problem with the scenario. Luchashaq suggests attacking them before they can draw, which calls into question just how threatening they're being or how likely they are to shoot a fleeing target if they haven't even drawn a weapon. Attacking that person seems like a really good way to get them to draw though.

 

[xnipx]

If trayvon would have beaten George to death after being followed from the store and noticing george had a gun would he have been acquitted?

Would George have gotten attempted murder had trayvon survived? At least assault with a deadly weapon?

 

[User Name Here]

Regardless of what the operator said, the operator wasn't a cop, they were a civilian. Their opinion/advice was just that.

I agree that he shouldn't have pursued him though, or attempted to confront him, assuming he confronted him (for a citizen's arrest, or to stall for time), but we don't know who confronted whom.



Speaking multiple languages isn't necessarily some sign of greater intellect. I speak three languages fluently because I lived in three different countries in the first decade of my life. You pick that shit up automatically when you're that young. Is Rachel mentioned specifically by her? I can't seem to find it, but I'm also very tried this morning so my eyes may just be failing.

I think it's pretty obvious that her "Above and Beyond" comment meant that he did more than he should've, and as a result caused an unfortunate situation to occur.

I can also easily see someone getting convinced against second degree murder, there isn't enough evidence to prove that GZ killed TM in cold blood. So keep in mind that the Jury was really split in a 3 - 2 - 1 way on this, with the majority believing him to be innocent of both charges.



I don't know why people are so quick to take this out of context. He was a guy on the neighborhood watch, which means he was concerned about his neighborhood more than the average joe. I don't mean this in some as some sort of pat on the back, but rather that it needs to be taken into account that this guy was ok with spending his evening in a car, looking out for would-be criminals. Secondly, the neighborhood had suffered a recent crime spree. It isn't as if he based his decision on the sole factor that someone was walking down a street at night.

So he was overzealous as mentioned?

So.... When you're overzealous you tend to develop a bias; When you develop a bias, you tend to intentionally or unintentionally confirm said bias -- often acting on them in some way; When you act on them in some way, you often make mistakes; When you make mistakes, you are often being reckless; When you are reckless, it is often due to negligence; When you are negligent, unfortunate circumstances arise; When unfortunate circumstances arise, they sometimes result in the lost of life; When that unfortunate circumstance results in the loss of life, you are being criminally negligent....


So criminal negligence resulting in manslaughter?

like what?

self defense for me would be to run. Then again we don't know quite how everything played out.

Fight or flight response. You would choose flight, he chose fight. Neither of you deserve (deserved in his case) to/or should die.

Is anyone else bothered that the juror seems to be on a first name basis with the accused(though i suppose now he's the acquitted)?

Well how else would the juror score a book deal?

 

[dan2026]

So one guy gets like 9 months in prison for a facebook threat and then this nut gets away with murder.

Justice.

Why was he carrying a gun anyway?

 

[Camp Lo]

Why the hell was this nut carrying a gun anyway?

To feel like a big man.

 

[Meier]

12 jurors are required only for capital cases when the death penalty is being considered (in Florida)

Huh, no kidding -- thanks for the info. I honestly thought 12 were always used in any circumstance. I got a jury duty summons once that was sent to my parent's house in Orlando but it was well after I'd moved away from the state. Thus far, I haven't been on jury duty anywhere.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

So did TM try to run away when GZ confronted him, or did GZ prevent TM from running away?

 

[YoungHav]

I knew he would get acquitted when 5/6 of the jury was revealed. They have an unreasonable fear of black males themselves so of course Trayvon is 1/2 way responsible for his own death.

 

[Row]

http://news.yahoo.com/-juror-says-z...ut-that-race-was-not-an-issue--010659567.html


Her initial Q&A with the counsel


Why Did They Let Her on the Zimmerman Jury?: The strange, strange case of juror B37.-Slate



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...rosecutors_let_her_on_the_trayvon_martin.html

Can't stuff like this lead to a retrial? Some of her comments are absolutely ridiculous

 

[JB1981]

So did TM try to run away when GZ confronted him, or did GZ prevent TM from running away?

No one really knows.

 

[jmls1121]

So one guy gets like 9 months in prison for a facebook threat and then this nut gets away with murder.

Justice.

Why was he carrying a gun anyway?

'merica

 

[CrankyJay]

Huh, no kidding -- thanks for the info. I honestly thought 12 were always used in any circumstance. I got a jury duty summons once that was sent to my parent's house in Orlando but it was well after I'd moved away from the state. Thus far, I haven't been on jury duty anywhere.

I guess it depends on the state. I was on a 12 person trial jury for attempted murder here in NY state.

 

[Evolved1]

Is this the lady that was on ACooper yesterday? Because I honestly couldn't listen to her speak... it was too awkward. I think she has a learning disability.

 

[faust666]

Either way, the problem with constantly claiming that the police (the dispatcher is a civilian) ordered GZ to do something which he disobeyed is a misrepresentation of the truth. Using it as an argument muddles whatever other points you're making by essentially using a falsehood as part of your argument.

He should have listened to the dispatcher, but it's pretty obvious to me what he was thinking: "If I stay here, the fucker will get away, if I wait for the cops, the fucker will get away, I need to do something"

.

You don't even need to go as far as saying it wasn't an order because of the audible difference from the running sound to quiet shortly after Zimmerman says OK to the dispatcher, the comment about losing him, and the location of the start of the conflict being where Zimmerman would have been where the call ended to dispatch suggests that he did in fact listen to the dispatcher. I suppose you can argue he hung around the top of the "T" hoping to catch a glimpse of him, but for at least 2 minutes he stopped following because there was no one to see to follow.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

It isn't a fair view to have, the reasons Zimmerman believed that Trayvon was one of the burglars are because he looked suspicious and because he thought he was black. He calls the police stating he sees a kid acting suspiciously when asked about the race he thinks that he's black. He drew connected the dots and came to the conclusion that Trayvon must have been the one who burgled their neighbours, how is it not about race?

Zim didn't think he was suspicious. Once he saw TM he had already tried and convicted him. To Zim, TM was already guilty. We get enough of it on 911 call "fucking punks" "always get away." Zim didn't jump out his vehicle and chase Martin on foot for being suspicious, Zim thought he was chasing a sure criminal. During the whole event Zim's mindset was to stop a dangerous criminal hence he went to confront Martin after a foot chase. That is what is infuriating with his profiling. Zim had no doubt that Martin was a hardened criminal on the way to or from a crime, which is why he went so far after him. I bet in his pea brain he was already thinking of the newspaper headlines of him catching a dangerous criminal. All TM was doing was walking home from the store, talking on the phone while being black. For Zimmerman TM was guilty on sight.

 

[Vilix]

So one guy gets like 9 months in prison for a facebook threat and then this nut gets away with murder.

Justice.

Why was he carrying a gun anyway?

Because he could. Doesn't me he should've though.

 

[Jarmel]

"Victim blaming" has no relationship to this case whatsoever. The point of the trial was we couldn't establish who the aggressor was.

According to the jurors, they felt Martin was responsible for his own death. If they couldn't tell who was the physical aggressor then how is Martin responsible then?

 

[Polari]

Why was he carrying a gun anyway?

Because unfortunately the law says he's allowed to.

 

[TheOMan]

Well said.

Don't forget that any charge has to be proven 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

So, define reasonable doubt for me. Then define what beyond a reasonable doubt means. Does that mean no doubt whatsoever? A little doubt? What is reasonable in this case?

 

[Hari Seldon]

I really don't understand what is so "shocking" about any of this .. At the end of the day the jury had only one question to ask themselves. Did Zimmerman have any fear for his life when he pulled the trigger. The conclusion they came to was "yes" he was in fear for his life. It doesn't matter who profiled who, who was doing or saying what, or who started what. Nothing else matters at that point. That is the way the "stand your ground" law works. Who cares what a juror said, or what her children are doing. The law is what it is. End of story.

Yeah I don't care about that law myself and if you want that law changed (if your state upholds it) Then make yourself heard to change it.

Your partly right, but this is not an application of stand your ground. This is ordinary old self defense. What GZ did would have been legal in all 50 states.

Self Defense - you have no ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

Stand Your Ground - you have the ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

The evidence says that GZ was on the ground and being pummeled by Martin. He had no ability to flee. There is no evidence that GZ started the fight. He was located in a public area doing nothing illegal and then was attacked. This is therefore not an application of Stand Your Ground.

 

[MThanded]

So one guy gets like 9 months in prison for a facebook threat and then this nut gets away with murder.

Justice.

Why was he carrying a gun anyway?

 

[Polari]

According to the jurors, they felt Martin was responsible for his own death. If they couldn't tell who was the physical aggressor then how is Martin responsible then?

One juror, I think. And yeah, although I said differently earlier in the thread, I disagree with that perception. The sad truth is we don't and will never know.

 

[wildfire]

I knew he would get acquitted when 5/6 of the jury was revealed. They have an unreasonable fear of black males themselves so of course Trayvon is 1/2 way responsible for his own death.

:|

You do realize that's a racist statement?


I'm only bringing this up because having a lower opinion based on how they look and not by their actions is what left us with this clusterfuck in the first place.

It would be prudent if we all worked on how we react to people without prejudging them, as hard as that may be.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

No one really knows.

It was all part of the plan. Have GZ not testify so the prosecution doesn't poke any holes in his statement.

Unbelievable.

 

[Hari Seldon]

So, define reasonable doubt for me. Then define what beyond a reasonable doubt means. Does that mean no doubt whatsoever? A little doubt? What is reasonable in this case?

It means no reasonable doubt. So if you can think of a reasonable scenario that doubts the prosecution, then it is not beyond reasonable doubt. This is apposed to unreasonable doubt, which would be that aliens killed Martin.

 

[.GqueB.]

According to the jurors, they felt Martin was responsible for his own death. If they couldn't tell who was the physical aggressor then how is Martin responsible then?

Wasn't it clear who the aggressor was? I thought the question was who started it?

 

[dan2026]

Because unfortunately the law says he's allowed to.

While I know everyone and their dog can buy a ton of guns in the US.
I honestly didn't think you were allowed to just walk the streets with firearms.

In the UK you can't carry a knife without good reason!

 

[JavyOO7]

If I read the gawker article correctly, she won't get that book deal anymore. At least for now. Twitter put a stop to that.

http://gawker.com/cocky-womans-twitter-campaign-puts-an-end-to-juror-b-799797793

And the juror statement:

https://twitter.com/sharlenemartin/status/357001737313329153/photo/1

 

[Jarmel]

Wasn't it clear who the aggressor was? I thought the question was who started it?

Following someone isn't illegal.

 

[Polari]

While I know everyone and their dog can buy a ton of guns in the US.
I honestly didn't think you were allowed to just walk the streets with firearms.

In the UK you can't carry a knife without good reason!

Yeah we're a little more sane over here.

 

[Loudninja]

Your partly right, but this is not an application of stand your ground. This is ordinary old self defense. What GZ did would have been legal in all 50 states.

Self Defense - you have no ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

Stand Your Ground - you have the ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

The evidence says that GZ was on the ground and being pummeled by Martin. He had no ability to flee. There is no evidence that GZ started the fight. He was located in a public area doing nothing illegal and then was attacked. This is therefore not an application of Stand Your Ground.

You got to be kidding me.

 

[.GqueB.]

Following someone isn't illegal.

I know. Trayvon Martin was the aggressor but isn't the main question how the altercation even started?

Edit: never mind it's the same thing.

 

[MThanded]

If I read the gawker article correctly, she won't get that book deal anymore. At least for now. Twitter put a stop to that.

http://gawker.com/cocky-womans-twitter-campaign-puts-an-end-to-juror-b-799797793

Yeah I was watching the twitter fallout last night. The CNN interview didn't help much.

 

[CrankyJay]

I'm glad the book deal fell through.

 

[Xenon]

If trayvon would have beaten George to death after being followed from the store and noticing george had a gun would he have been acquitted.

The fact that George was on the phone with the police when the indecent took place would have been a major hurdle for Trayvon's defense team. The number of times George had reported incidents without any physical altercations could end up being brought up. Also shouting "What are you doing here?" is not exactly threatening. Still they would not have had a good witness of the altercation and who started it. There is a good chance reasonable doubt could be established.

 

[DragonSworne]

Following someone isn't illegal.

Doing something legal doesn't disqualify you from being the aggressor.

 

[polyh3dron]

like what?

self defense for me would be to run. Then again we don't know quite how everything played out.

Next time somebody wants to fatally shoot you, try running away from them and let me know how that goes.

 

[No Love]

It's the exact same reason the person reacting to a bully gets punished in school.

No kidding, right?

This is fucking disgusting. Can the prosecution push for a mistrial? Because this was a goddamn joke. Who allowed these people on the jury!?

Your partly right, but this is not an application of stand your ground. This is ordinary old self defense. What GZ did would have been legal in all 50 states.

Self Defense - you have no ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

Stand Your Ground - you have the ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

The evidence says that GZ was on the ground and being pummeled by Martin. He had no ability to flee. There is no evidence that GZ started the fight. He was located in a public area doing nothing illegal and then was attacked. This is therefore not an application of Stand Your Ground.

How is it self defense when you follow someone in your car WITH A GUN, and despite the authorities telling you "BACK AWAY, DON'T GET OUT OF THE CAR", you get out of your car and come up to someone and physically confront them? And then shoot them and claim "self defense/stand your ground"?

You wouldn't have to "stand your ground" if you weren't following someone and going up to them in the first place!

This must be a sick joke, or some people just live in an alternate reality. Makes my head spin.

 

[User Name Here]

:|

You do realize that's a racist statement?


I'm only bringing this up because having a lower opinion based on how they look and not by their actions is what left us with this clusterfuck in the first place.

It would be prudent if we all worked on how we react to people without prejudging them, as hard as that may be.

Hey logic, how's everything? You good?

 

[wildfire]

While I know everyone and their dog can buy a ton of guns in the US.
I honestly didn't think you were allowed to just walk the streets with firearms.

In the UK you can't carry a knife without good reason!

Newsflash dude. In some states you don't even need your weapon to be concealed.

Open carry is the greatest law invented. Hoo rah!

Hey logic, how's everything? You good?

Why don't you break it down and show where an incongruity was made.

 

[effzee]

Of all the stupid things she said, claiming RACE had nothing to do with it, is willingly being naive.

Was infuriated before even more so now.

 

[Vestal]

No kidding, right?

This is fucking disgusting. Can the prosecution push for a mistrial? Because this was a goddamn joke. Who allowed these people on the jury!?

from my understanding unless there is evidence of jury tampering or coercion then double jeopardy trumps all.

 

[.GqueB.]

Of all the stupid things she said, claiming RACE had nothing to do with it, is willingly being naive.

Was infuriated before even more so now.

Lol why would she ever say that?

 

[TheOMan]

It means no reasonable doubt. So if you can think of a reasonable scenario that doubts the prosecution, then it is not beyond reasonable doubt. This is apposed to unreasonable doubt, which would be that aliens killed Martin.

Yeah, I get that - but I guess I didn't word my previous post well. What would be reasonable in this case? All we have is one obviously fabricated story. So to me, that would believing that would be unreasonable. So what would be reasonable here?

 

[Eidan]

Everything about this goddamn case becomes more and more infuriating.

 

[Gold_Loot]

Your partly right, but this is not an application of stand your ground. This is ordinary old self defense. What GZ did would have been legal in all 50 states.

Self Defense - you have no ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

Stand Your Ground - you have the ability to flee, your life is in danger, you can respond with deadly force

The evidence says that GZ was on the ground and being pummeled by Martin. He had no ability to flee. There is no evidence that GZ started the fight. He was located in a public area doing nothing illegal and then was attacked. This is therefore not an application of Stand Your Ground.

Fair enough , and noted. Thank you.. I think the point still stands though.