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[Flo_Evans]

I'm saying its not a clear case of defense, backed up by the recommendation he be charged. So that in a trial, you have evidence/depositions etc. To reach a conclusion of guilt or innocence.




With your link, what are you saying?

I'm saying the lead detective, who interviewed Zimmerman, didn't think there was enough evidence to arrest him and turn charges over to the DA. He was pressured to do so.

In the end he was right, there was not enough evidence to convict him.

You claimed that every case of self defense must go to trial, this is simply not true. The police collect evidence, and if they think they have enough they turn it over to the prosecutor who bring it to trial.

 

[Playsation_]

You realize hoodies are banned in some countries right? They ARE associated with criminals, they just also happen to be too popular to do anything about it in the US (they're associated wtih things like college athletics as well here).

You do know it was raining that night? ... Wearing a hoodie in that fashion makes sense.
Or you expected him to walk in the rain naked?

 

[MThanded]

You realize hoodies are banned in some countries right? They ARE associated with criminals, they just also happen to be too popular to do anything about it in the US (they're associated wtih things like college athletics as well here).

It was raining. Weird justification here.

 

[GQman2121]

There's nothing wrong with asking someone questions.

Him getting out of the car allowed the situation to escalate, him having a gun allowed the situation to escalate. Him being mounted by Martin allowed the situation to escalate.

Lets boil this down to the simplest possible situation.

Ignore everything leading up to the moment.

You're in a fight. The person has you on the ground and has a large rock that they've hit you in the head with once and are about to hit you again. You're dazed.

Are you afraid for you life? What force can you use to stop this person?

Neither party should have escalated, but whether zimmerman is justified or not boils down to that moment, and under Florida law he could use deadly force to defend himself, and therefore the jury acquitted him.

So basically you're saying, Trayvon would have been better off beating Zimmerman to death and then claiming self defense for himself, right?

His only crime is seemingly not having a gun of his own to defend himself in a better way than with his fist.

This is Florida, do or die motherfuckers.......

 

[Derwind]

This victim role of black people is the true joke, everybody and anything is against us, my opinion.

.

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[nOoblet16]

By the way are we absolutely 100% sure that Zimmerman profiled him racially? couldn't he have profiled him based on his clothes and presence in the area alone?

The police report mentions that Martin was wearing a hoodie which prompted Zimmerman to get curious due to a local gang doing the same. We know for sure that there was vandalism going around in the neighbourhood cause by the local gang and Zimmerman wanted to catch whoever was causing it, so if he assumed or doubted that Martin could've been a member of the local gang based on his clothes OR him lingering around houses that got vandalised then it can be seen why he was curious before and even after the dispatch suggested not to follow.

Of course what followed were a series of bad decisions resulting in Zimmerman shooting Martin dead.

 

[commedieu]

ughhh. Nevermind. I don't care about you flamebait anymore. Think what you want i don't care. Maybe because i spelled wrong victim name i have some hidden agenda.

I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. You're saying it was a mistake. Thats fair. People are frustrated at the moment, I'm one of them.

 

[crisdecuba]

I think one of the real, nearly unspoken issues that I'm getting from this entire ordeal, including the juror's statements, is that people seem to think it's totally ok that Zimmerman saw a black kid walking down the street, and, because there was a series of break ins in the neighborhood by black youth, made the connection in his head that, "Well, if one black person committed a crime in this neighborhood, all blacks that fit the profile of that one black person must be a criminal as well."

That is not cool, and that is the definition of racial profiling. If the burglars had been white males, and Zimmerman made the connection that "white male = criminal," it would still be racial profiling, and it would still be wrong.

The jurors of this case clearly didn't see anything wrong with Zimmerman suspecting Trayvon, despite Trayvon not actively doing anything to suggest he was up to no good. And, as has been pointed out, it was 7 in the evening. Who breaks into a home on a Sunday night? The day before a work week, when the family is usually at home?

Also, The 7/11 Trayvon was walking from wasn't in the gated community, and we know that Zimmerman had been following him from before Trayvon even entered the community. We know this, because, if I remember correctly, Zimmerman stated that he passed Trayvon, then waited at the clubhouse, and started following him again by vehicle when he passed him (and entered the gated community). So, Zimmerman had made a judgment call about Trayvon and what he was about, before he entered the community, and before he started "acting strange, like he was on drugs or something."

Despite the jury being pointed out time and again Zimmerman's intent to follow and detain, they brushed it aside because, "hey, Trayvon was suspicious for some reason, and it's totally ok for a 'boy of color' to be detained by a non LEO because the complete stranger following him wants to detain him."

Trayvon had no obligation to explain himself, and, Zimmerman's own recorded account, Trayvon tried to get away by running. Zimmerman didn't let him get away. He followed him, and, according to Rachel, who heard the start of the altercation, questioned what Trayvon was doing in the neighborhood, and did Trayvon swing a punch? No, he asked Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" As as an adult, Zimmerman could have de-escalated the situation by saying he was with neighborhood watch and didn't recognize him. But instead, Zimmerman said nothing, and I feel that at this point, he tried to detain Trayvon by pulling his gun, and then the fight happened. I don't discount Rachel's observations. It doesn't matter if her testimony lacked eloquence. She reported what she heard. And it's routinely dismissed because of "reasons." But Zimmerman's account, which, I'm sorry, evidence does not corroborate, is taken as gospel truth.

Evidence shows that Zimmerman was not being pummeled. He took at least 1-3 punches to the face tops, and 1-2 blows to the concrete, which could have happened when he first hit the ground. This does not vibe with his account of being mounted MMA style and his head slammed against the ground "25+ times."

The jury seemed to ignore the physical evidence (including lack of Zimmerman's DNA on Trayvon; lack of defensive wounds on Zimmerman, as, I'd imagine, someone who is fighting for their life would have), and just took Zimmerman's account as true, despite admitting that there were "lies and exaggerations."

But hey, he only killed a 17 year old, and he's "learned his lesson." I'm sure dead Trayvon is glad to know that his death taught Zimmerman a valuable life lesson.

So, I just stepped into this thread. The way I learned about the TM / GZ initially was through what I heard on the news (mainly MSNBC), but I didn't really study up on it until after the trial ended. I've read through the Wikipedia article about the shooting. Is there anything inaccurate in the entry that you would want to clarify and cite references to? The reason I ask is because after reading through the article, I can see how the jury came to a not-guilty verdict.

But to your main point - that TM was clearly racially profiled - based on what I found in the Wikipedia article, and after listening to the phone audio from the 911 call, I don't see definitive proof of that. The main thing that I used to think was the "proof" was GZ telling the police "It's a black guy," and the impression I had that this was an all white neighborhood and whatnot. But what I hear in the audio is that GZ was asked the ethnicity, to which he responded that he looked black, and the neighbor was decently racially diverse.

These things make it plausible in my mind that racial profiling isn't the only viable explanation. There isn't definitive proof of racial profiling as far as I can see.

 

[linsivvi]

Ascii Picard is best Picard.

 

[.GqueB.]

My construction boss was a cartoonishly racist redneck.
But he hired a black guy. Guess who complained? The Mexicans. Every other word out of their mouths was 'mayate' until the guy found a better job.

Well he said the same race.

By the way are we absolutely 100% sure that Zimmerman profiled him racially? couldn't he have profiled him based on his clothes and presence in the area alone?

The police report mentions that Martin was wearing a hoodie which prompted Zimmerman to get curious due to a local gang doing the same. We know for sure that there was vandalism going around in the neighbourhood cause by the local gang and Zimmerman wanted to catch whoever was causing it, so if he assumed or doubted that Martin could've been a member of the local gang based on his clothes OR him lingering around houses that got vandalised then it can be seen why he was curious before and even after the dispatch suggested not to follow.

Of course what followed were a series of bad decisions resulting in Zimmerman shooting Martin dead.

This is my take on it as well...

no one really wants to hear this take though. But this is what I think happened which is why I don't like the fact that race is being so passionately injected into this.

 

[Vahagn]

By the way are we absolutely 100% sure that Zimmerman profiled him racially? couldn't he have profiled him based on his clothes and presence in the area alone?

The police report mentions that Martin was wearing a hoodie which prompted Zimmerman to get curious due to a local gang doing the same. We know for sure that there was vandalism going around in the neighbourhood cause by the local gang and Zimmerman wanted to catch whoever was causing it, so if he assumed or doubted that Martin could've been a member of the local gang based on his clothes OR him lingering around houses that got vandalised then it can be seen why he was curious before and even after the dispatch suggested not to follow.

Of course what followed were a series of bad decisions resulting in Zimmerman shooting Martin dead.

We know he saw 3 objective things about Martin because he identified them correctly. He saw that he was a black male, he saw that he was in his late teens, he saw the type and color of his clothes. The rest of the stuff he added on "suspicious" "asshole" "fucking punk" "on drugs" are all subjective assertions he projected onto Martin.

Maybe it's the clothes that set him off, maybe it's the gender. But most likely, it's the combination of race/hoodie/gender. Which begs does the question, Do black males have to walk around in suits all day long just so prejudiced non-black people don't overreact?

Is there anything wrong with anyone, black or not, wearing a hoodie at any point in time, particularly in the rain at night when it's cold?


The assertion that Zimmerman may not have racially profiled Martin if Martin was in a suit is ludicrous. It is not the responsibility of black men in this country to act in a way to dispels the prejudices and assumptions of white men, it is the responsibility of white men to stop being irrationally prejudiced.

 

[Yoritomo]

So basically you're saying, Trayvon would have been better off beating Zimmerman to death and then claiming self defense for himself, right?

His only crime is seemingly not having a gun of his own to defend himself in a better way than with his fist.

This is Florida, do or die motherfuckers.......

Trayvon would have been better off not mounting his opponent and repeatedly punching him.

I don't think the disparity of force was great enough to justify deadly force, but I wasn't on that Jury.

You don't fight, ever. There is never a reason to strike another individual unless it is to defend yourself from physical harm and if you press any advantage you have past the point of reasonable force you risk the other persons life and your own freedom.

 

[MThanded]

Well he said the same race.


This is my take on it as well...

no one really wants to hear this take though. But this is what I think happened which is why I don't like the fact that race is being so passionately injected into this.

Profiling has less to do with the phone call and more to do with the subsequent actions. And I would not care so much about the racial implications of this case if the defense did not do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0e1iKj1sgc

They called a witness to explicitly justify the profiling. So even in their mind they understand that the race of the victim was relevant.

It is very easy to remove the race of the victim as he is deceased...

 

[commedieu]

I'm saying the lead detective, who interviewed Zimmerman, didn't think there was enough evidence to arrest him and turn charges over to the DA. He was pressured to do so.

In the end he was right, there was not enough evidence to convict him.

You claimed that every case of self defense must go to trial, this is simply not true. The police collect evidence, and if they think they have enough they turn it over to the prosecutor who bring it to trial.

A few things, it was called a clear case of self defense. Thats what I'm refuting. The lead detective, who I quoted, said that he didn't believe zimmermans account. This is all in response to clear cases of self defense, this was not a clear case of self defense. In clear cases of self defense, where evidence backs up the persons account, yes. Being on the 911 operator while the rapist is coming in, and you asking permission to shoot, is clear self defense. Even then, the family of the rapist might pursue. People get trials.

This one wasn't, which is why it was propelled to try the man.

There is more than enough evidence to convict zimmerman of self defense, but you couldn't if you had the mindset that he was doing the community a service, and learned a good lesson.

 

[perineumlick]

This victim role of black people is the true joke, everybody and anything is against us, my opinion.

Well, at least black people know where you stand. I like my racists out in the open. Well done!

 

[linsivvi]

Trayvon would have been better off not mounting his opponent and repeatedly punching him.

Good thing that this is not a proven fact then.

 

[Vahagn]

Trayvon would have been better off not mounting his opponent and repeatedly punching him.

I don't think the disparity of force was great enough to justify deadly force, but I wasn't on that Jury.

You don't fight, ever. There is never a reason to strike another individual unless it is to defend yourself from physical harm and if you press any advantage you have past the point of reasonable force you risk the other persons life and your own freedom.

I like how you ignored everything I said. Well done.

 

[Kettch]

So basically you're saying, Trayvon would have been better off beating Zimmerman to death and then claiming self defense for himself, right?

His only crime is seemingly not having a gun of his own to defend himself in a better way than with his fist.

This is Florida, do or die motherfuckers.......

Except that he's a kid, and isn't allowed to protect himself with a gun.

But hey, shooting him with one is just fine.

 

[Omegasquash]

Trayvon would have been better off not mounting his opponent and repeatedly punching him.

I don't think the disparity of force was great enough to justify deadly force, but I wasn't on that Jury.

You don't fight, ever. There is never a reason to strike another individual unless it is to defend yourself from physical harm and if you press any advantage you have past the point of reasonable force you risk the other persons life and your own freedom.

Which it's ENTIRELY reasonable to think and suspect that Trayvon Martin did. In his mind it's extremely likely that he was defending himself. From a man following him, in his neighborhood, in a dark rain.

I get what you're saying, but the instigation still lies (in many minds on this board) solely on Zimmerman.

 

[Yoritomo]

I like how you ignored everything I said. Well done.

I was replying to GQman2121. Well done.

 

[Perkel]

Here's why you "ignoring" everything up to that point is such a dumb/prejudiced/possibly racist thing to do.


Let's stop identifying with Zimmerman for a second, and lets stop embellishing about Trayvong having a rock and bashing your head in which isn't true.

Let's say YOU'RE Trayvon, and someone in the middle of the night is chasing you, in a car, and you see it and you run away, he gets out on foot and he chases you some more. At some point you two meet and a fight escalates. You're unarmed, this other person who is a stranger and has been chasing you has a concealed weapon which you don't know about.

Do you 1) Throw the fight or 2) Fight for your life because you have the right to defend yourself and you want to make sure that this person who has relentlessly been pursuing you is unconscious or incapacitated before you give up your winning position?


Ignoring all the events leading up to the fight is just a way for you to essentially claim that Trayvon doesn't have the right to defend himself. That he has the OBLIGATION to throw the fight, and if he decides to try to win, he can be justifiably murdered.

Excellent post.

 

[wildfire]

I think one of the real, nearly unspoken issues that I'm getting from this entire ordeal, including the juror's statements, is that people seem to think it's totally ok that Zimmerman saw a black kid walking down the street, and, because there was a series of break ins in the neighborhood by black youth, made the connection in his head that, "Well, if one black person committed a crime in this neighborhood, all blacks that fit the profile of that one black person must be a criminal as well."

That is not cool, and that is the definition of racial profiling. If the burglars had been white males, and Zimmerman made the connection that "white male = criminal," it would still be racial profiling, and it would still be wrong.

If I had a time machine I would have you as part of the prosecution if I had the power to appoint as well.

 

[Yoritomo]

Which it's ENTIRELY reasonable to think and suspect that Trayvon Martin did. In his mind it's extremely likely that he was defending himself. From a man following him, in his neighborhood, in a dark rain.

I get what you're saying, but the instigation still lies (in many minds on this board) solely on Zimmerman.

Was he defending himself from an unlawful use of force?

 

[commedieu]

I was replying to GQman2121. Well done.

you going to reply to him?

Was he defending himself from an unlawful use of force?

self defense doesn't have to be in response to force. It can be the simple feel of a threat. In FL.

 

[MThanded]

Excellent post.

Is this sarcasm. You were in here earlier saying this would be a nonissue if they were both black.

 

[Vahagn]

I was replying to GQman2121. Well done.

clearly, because my post dispelled all the nonsense you wrote. "Fighting is wrong, ever." Except when you're in fear because you think you're being hunted down in the middle of the night, which you think is irrelevant, because Trayvon's reasonable fears are irrelevant. All that matters is how George felt. Poor poor Georgey, he was scared when his nighttime lynching started to go wrong.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Trayvon would have been better off not mounting his opponent and repeatedly punching him.

I don't think the disparity of force was great enough to justify deadly force, but I wasn't on that Jury.

You don't fight, ever. There is never a reason to strike another individual unless it is to defend yourself from physical harm and if you press any advantage you have past the point of reasonable force you risk the other persons life and your own freedom.

I don't think this can be repeated enough. Seems people believe that a creepy ass cracker tailing them is justification for a fist fight. It's not, and you are either going to end up dead or with assault charges if that is your response.

 

[otapnam]

By the way are we absolutely 100% sure that Zimmerman profiled him racially? couldn't he have profiled him based on his clothes and presence in the area alone?

The police report mentions that Martin was wearing a hoodie which prompted Zimmerman to get curious due to a local gang doing the same. We know for sure that there was vandalism going around in the neighbourhood cause by the local gang and Zimmerman wanted to catch whoever was causing it, so if he assumed or doubted that Martin could've been a member of the local gang based on his clothes OR him lingering around houses that got vandalised then it can be seen why he was curious before and even after the dispatch suggested not to follow.

Of course what followed were a series of bad decisions resulting in Zimmerman shooting Martin dead.

I havnt heard any reports about any specific gang.

From what Ive read/heard there had been burglaries in the area and the witnesses always described black males in the area at the time of the crime

Zimmerman actually found out a few months after one of these burglaries it was indeed a black male he had seen himself in the area.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

She already had her mind made up before the trial even started.

 

[Liha]

Well, at least black people know where you stand. I like my racists out in the open. Well done!

That is it, everybody with a another opinion is a racist. Is this still a democracy or a fascist state?

 

[GQman2121]

Trayvon would have been better off not mounting his opponent and repeatedly punching him.

I don't think the disparity of force was great enough to justify deadly force, but I wasn't on that Jury.

You don't fight, ever. There is never a reason to strike another individual unless it is to defend yourself from physical harm and if you press any advantage you have past the point of reasonable force you risk the other persons life and your own freedom.

Fuck you.

I don't think this can be repeated enough. Seems people believe that a creepy ass cracker tailing them is justification for a fist fight. It's not, and you are either going to end up dead or with assault charges if that is your response.

You too.

You're making terrible assumptions of what happened to justify that a kid was murdered for walking home.

 

[commedieu]

I don't think this can be repeated enough. Seems people believe that a creepy ass cracker tailing them is justification for a fist fight. It's not, and you are either going to end up dead or with assault charges if that is your response.

He did call zimmerman a nigger as well. But, i know that doesn't fit the message you're telling blacks at the moment.

Continue.

 

[Xenon]

clearly, because my post dispelled all the nonsense you wrote. "Fighting is wrong, ever." Except when you're in fear because you think you're being hunted down in the middle of the night, which you think is irrelevant, because Trayvon's reasonable fears are irrelevant. All that matters is how George felt. Poor poor Georgey, he was scared when his nighttime lynching started to go wrong.

Wow...

 

[Perkel]

Is this sarcasm. You were in here earlier saying this would be a nonissue if they were both black.

What his post has anything to do with race. He showed from Trayvon side how things looked in comparison to Zimmerman point of view ? I said CASE would be nonissue for public if both of them would have same skin colour and we wouldn't have this thread in first place.

 

[Yoritomo]

Excellent post.

Even if a fight is provoked, it can still be an unlawful use of force. This isn't the school yard. Had Zimmerman not had a gun Trayvon would have been on the hook for assault which is preferable to being dead, but the assault escalated to a situation where there was a disparity of force and the jury determined Zimmerman protected himself with a lawful use of deadly force.

 

[Vahagn]

I don't think this can be repeated enough. Seems people believe that a creepy ass cracker tailing them is justification for a fist fight. It's not, and you are either going to end up dead or with assault charges if that is your response.

lmao

The Florida Self Defense Law states you have the right to use lethal force if you have reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death and that injuries are not necessary to be sustained


There are a shit ton of people in the world who think a teenager being chased in the middle of the night by car and then on foot when he tried to run away is reasonably scared and in fear of great bodily injury. So he can't use fists, but Zimmerman can use a gun?

FFS, stop with the double standards.

 

[Playsation_]

I am a normal citizen. I can judge it morally, but not legally. We have judges and lawyers for that. The world is not perfect, accept it, tomorrow is a another day. I am an opponent of manhunt and that happens at the moment. Zimmerman is not guilty, treated him like a human and don`t hunt him.

Well, anyone who is currently hunting GZ is definitely not reading this forum.
GZ got away with murder, and we all must deal with it. OJ is a fine, very fine example.

 

[MThanded]

Even if a fight is provoked, it can still be an unlawful use of force. This isn't the school yard. Had Zimmerman not had a gun Trayvon would have been on the hook for assault which is preferable to being dead, but the assault escalated to a situation where there was a disparity of force and the jury determined Zimmerman protected himself with a lawful use of deadly force.

He wouldn't have confronted a stranger so brazenly and we probably would have never heard the names George Zimmerman and/or Trayvon Martin. Actually, it was only a matter of time that his happened with GZ. So if it wasn't TM it would have been someone else.

 

[Yoritomo]

Fuck you.



You too.

You're making terrible assumptions of what happened to justify that a kid was murdered for walking home.

He was killed in self defense per the jury for beating another man's head against concrete.

 

[Draft]

I would certainly classify killing suspicious loiterers as above and beyond the normal scope of neighborhood watch work.

 

[Mononoke]

He wouldn't have confronted a stranger so brazenly.

Even had he not shot Martin, still would have been assault.

Although I do agree with you about people acting differently when they have a gun on them.

 

[Vahagn]

Even if a fight is provoked, it can still be an unlawful use of force. This isn't the school yard. Had Zimmerman not had a gun Trayvon would have been on the hook for assault which is preferable to being dead, but the assault escalated to a situation where there was a disparity of force and the jury determined Zimmerman protected himself with a lawful use of deadly force.

the all white jury, in the south.

You think an all black jury would have determined that? Or do you just think white people are naturally more capable of being objective than black people. Pretending that the jury's position is the only reasonable position is absurd.


And arguing that Trayvon punching a stalking Zimmerman when he was scared should be on the hook for assault, but Zimmerman killing Trayvon when he was scared should be acquitted, is some more double standard bullshit. Zimmerman could shoot Trayvon because he doesn't think the threat will end till he's dead. But Trayvon can't knock Zimmerman unconscious because he has no reason to believe Zimmerman won't get up and keep chasing him if left conscious?


DOES TRAYVON MARTIN HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND HIMSELF OR NOT?

 

[Yoritomo]

He wouldn't have confronted a stranger so brazenly.

People exchange words all the time without ever using violence.

 

[commedieu]

Even had he not shot Martin, still would have been assault.

Like Zimmerman's police record.

 

[wildfire]

It's ok bro. Don't let this douche get to you.

 

[Flo_Evans]

He did call zimmerman a nigger as well. But, i know that doesn't fit the message you're telling blacks at the moment.

Continue.

I'm telling everyone. Escalating a verbal confrontation into a physical one is fucking stupid.

 

[MThanded]

People exchange words all the time without ever using violence.

George Zimmerman said he never announced himself. Not sure what you are getting at.

 

[Rayis]

I am a normal citizen. I can judge it morally, but not legally. We have judges and lawyers for that. The world is not perfect, accept it, tomorrow is a another day. I am an opponent of manhunt and that happens at the moment. Zimmerman is not guilty, treated him like a human and don`t hunt (kill) him.

Sure, black people should just accept the fact they're racially profiled and great injustices are committed against them and just shut up and deal with them.


I'm sorry honey but I don't think you're thinking about this too deeply

 

[linsivvi]

Why are we arguing the event based on Zimmerman's account again? Something that even the sympathetic juror doesn't believe, but acquitted him anyway?

 

[Vahagn]

People exchange words all the time without ever using violence.

Everything you've said suggests you don't think Trayvon has any rights. No right of self defense, no right to stand his ground.


You're blaming Trayvon for punching a stalking Zimmerman but defending Zimmerman for killing Trayvon for a bloody nose and some 2 cm head scrapes. You clearly lack any kind of colorblind objectivity, stop feigning it and gtfo this thread with your racist shit.