Wired: Final Fantasy Isn’t Dying. It’s Already Dead

I sorta agree. Since Sakaguchi left the soul has been ripped out of the franchise. They lack emotion, care and love. He always made it a point to make sure you cared about the characters and plot. I say this all the time but play Lost Odyssey. It's so criminally underrated on 360 and is more Final Fantasy than any FF game this gen. You even love the kid characters in that game and how many JRPGs can you say that for? You see the struggle of the immortals and the burdens they have to carry. Great characters in that game.

FF12 was the first game in the franchise without him and I can't think of a more forgettable story/characters beside FFXIII in the franchise.
 
There hasn't been a good Final Fantasy since 10.

The last great one before that was 8.

7 is Heavenly Sword levels of bad.

And the rest are just mediocre.

I mean, X-2? :lol

10>8>>>>Skyler from Breaking Bad>>>>>

I've deleted the rest of them from my memory
 
FF has been struggling for me definitely. They haven't hit big with me since XII. I look back at the PS2 era and get the nostaligic fuzzies. Nothing this gen.

I am not ready to say dead yet, though. FFXV could be good. Remains to be seen.

They really need to straighten up the story and characters, though. Toriyama should not be in charge of this department. Give him some other job, or have someone direct him, but for Yevon's sake DO NOT give him full reign over story and characters.

FF characters used to be widely appealing! VII and X had some of the most iconic RPG characters! Heck, not just any franchise can co-star in a crossover with freakin Disney for Pete's sake.
 
It was the Jpop overflow, plain and simple. Especially with the introduction of X-2. I completely lost touch with the franchise after that. And I was a HUGE fan up to X.
 
jcm said:
You're awfully righteous for a guy who just posted numbers that don't back you up without understanding what they are, and then claimed that your guess is probably right anyway. Why not just admit you're mistaken, like you're asking others to do?

All of the worldwide sales numbers that come from Square Enix are shipment numbers, period. Worldwide sell through numbers don't exist.
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I'd be less pissed if certain posters didn't continuously use the 6.6 million figure as a sales number rather than a shipment number over and over despite being told again and again that they are wrong. At the very least I looked up the numbers, found the information, and made an effort to make a decent estimate of what 13 sold, which those members never did and instead demanded proof that the sales number was lower than the shipment number they were fed.

If you haven't tried searching and asking around, how do you know worldwide numbers don't exist? The Japan numbers exist (with LTD), the NA numbers exist (NPD released data for the first month at least), the sticking point is EU (even the UK sales tracker only releases a ranking, not actual numbers). Assuming EU numbers aren't significantly greater than NA numbers, currently it is highly unlikely FF13 has passed 6 million worldwide.
 
Batigol said:
There hasn't been a good Final Fantasy since 10.

The last great one before that was 8.

7 is Heavenly Sword levels of bad.

And the rest are just mediocre.

I mean, X-2? :lol

10>8>>>>Skyler from Breaking Bad>>>>>

I've deleted the rest of them from my memory
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I actually laughed. bravo.
 
AlphaDump said:
It was the Jpop overflow, plain and simple. Especially with the introduction of X-2. I completely lost touch with the franchise after that. And I was a HUGE fan up to X.
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You should give XII:International a try at least. It was a breath of fresh air from the stale norm of the series' past.
 
Talon said:
The Tifa thing is missing the point. Tifa wasn't the focal point of that game.

This coming from someone that doesn't care for FF7.

Square played up Lightning as a serious, mature protagonist for 13. She was the focal pount of 13. A male Cloud sans pouting.

Now they're fucking with her cup size to solely titilate.

Square hilariously bungled Final Fantasy this generation.

On top of that, JRPGs clearly are no longer the massive AAA blockbusters they used to be in years past.

I loved FF12 and really wish Matsuno got to finish his vision, but I think that title made more sense as a Tactics Ogre game.
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I kinda feel like Lightning's breast size expansion is, pardon the pun, getting blown out of proportion. Yeah, Toriyama has been nothing but creepy about her nonstop, but I mean, let's not forget that her actual character was ruined long before the boob job hijinks began, people. XIII-2 Lightning is a pale shadow of the one in XIII.
 
The brand had a few bad games. It's not like the brand can't come back after one good game. You bet the "revival of Final Fantasy" is a trope that everybody would love to hype up.
 
CorvoSol said:
I kinda feel like Lightning's breast size expansion is, pardon the pun, getting blown out of proportion.
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Lakers-Fan-Takes-Off-Sunglasses.gif
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Good. Good. Unleash the PUNishment.
 
They got me at 7 and lost me after 10, but god damn those four games were amazing for me. I'm holding out hope for 15 but I'm really sceptical at this point.
 
CorvoSol said:
I kinda feel like Lightning's breast size expansion is, pardon the pun, getting blown out of proportion. Yeah, Toriyama has been nothing but creepy about her nonstop, but I mean, let's not forget that her actual character was ruined long before the boob job hijinks began, people. XIII-2 Lightning is a pale shadow of the one in XIII.
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It's really salt in the wound, if you will. Insult to injury.
 
I think the 'Final Fantasy Cycle' could be the new 'Sonic Cycle' now that one is largely defunct.

Game Announced -> Fans anticipate it as the Second Coming -> 6 years pass -> "Worst FF Game / Franchise Destroyed"
(Rinse and Repeat)
 
I think Final Fantasy stopped being a must-have, system-selling series after X, so if that's how you define being dead, it's true. Oh sure, it can still sell well, but new games in the series have nowhere near the universal cultural impact in gaming that they once did. Final Fantasy is just another game in a world of "cinematic" games. It does nothing unique or special that can't be found in dozens of other games; you might even say it's a victim of its own popularity in that it inspired game developers to flood the market with "deep" story-based games.
 
Can't they just leave the women with the same cup size!?!?!? It was confusing enough when Yuna went from a C/D-cup to an A-cup in FFX-2!
 
I think most people would agree that X was a critical and commercial success (and is loved between and amongst fans), so "not that bad" is kind of dishonest. This is like saying Eyes Wide Shut or Shawshank Redemption are mostly ok or something similarly feckless. And I take personal offense to anyone shitting on 12.

If the point is that 13 was disappointing, 13-2 shouldn't have happened, and 13-3 is an industry laughing stock, point taken. But why be so dramatic?
 
Y2Kev said:
I think most people would agree that X was a critical and commercial success (and is loved between and amongst fans), so "not that bad" is kind of dishonest. This is like saying Eyes Wide Shut or Shawshank Redemption are mostly ok or something similarly feckless. And I take personal offense to anyone shitting on 12.
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There's a certain type of oldschool fan who hated FFX. Between a rather linear pilgrimage, the death of airships and full world travel, and the occasionally silly Tidus (and the shock of anime voice acting in general), I don't think everyone saw it as a knock out of the park.

But it does signify that Kohler is one of those people who hasn't been that sympathetic to FF for well over a decade. He's not at all alone.. But in a way it's natural for some people and FF itself to grow apart.
 
The corporate culture at SE and its failure to find and promote talent and remove failures means expecting good games from them is a thing of the past.

In any healthy studio making a mediocre release in a flagship series like FF13 would prompt a shakeup not a trilogy. Let alone abject failures like the 3rd Birthday, FF14, FF:ATB (2nd worst ranked iphone game out of thousands!) or FFvs13's development hell.

Shit like Toriyama's continued employment despite his repeatedly poorly received output speaks volumes about what SE's future output will continue to be like.
 
BocoDragon said:
There's a certain type of oldschool fan who hated FFX. Between a rather linear pilgrimage, the death of airships and full world travel, and the occasionally silly Tidus, I don't think everyone saw it as a knock out of the park.

But it does signify that Kohler is one of those people who hasn't been that sympathetic to FF for well over a decade. He's not at all alone.. But in a way it's natural for some people and FF itself to grow apart.
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Who cares though? I didn't say everyone liked it and if you don't you don't count. I said most did. FFX consistently ranks high in the polls run by Famitsu, too. My point was that it's generally very well liked and to imply otherwise is silly. And freaking Sakaguchi introduced the development team for 12, so it is asinine to say that things started spiraling out of control when he left and use that as an example.

Sakaguchi sucks and his post-FF games are proof of that. Everyone needs to deal with it and worship the actual genius behind the FF5-6-7 in the battle system designers, the artists, the character designers, and most of all Yoshinori Kitase.

I can't be assed discussing people chasing after phantoms with Nintendo-era FF nostalgia. I'm going to go have more vodka grumble
 
I'm sure I'm not the only person who put 13 on, went into that 1st boss fight (the FF7 ripoff), and wondered whether the game was actually HD.
 
spunodi said:
I think the 'Final Fantasy Cycle' could be the new 'Sonic Cycle' now that one is largely defunct.

Game Announced -> Fans anticipate it as the Second Coming -> 6 years pass -> "Worst FF Game / Franchise Destroyed"
(Rinse and Repeat)
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Let's be honest: that fanbase had to put up with Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06, and Sonic Unleashed all in a row. I don't care what you say, no main Final Fantasy (excluding XIV) has ever fallen to those depths. They had a legit reason to cry "Sonic is dead".
 
It pains me to say it, but I think it's impossible to argue against the main points of the article.
Oh how the mighty creative and inspirational heights they have fallen from. Everything I've seen of LR is very out of touch and embarrassing, too.

FF15 doesn't inspire much hope either, but I do hope they eventually remember what got them where they are in the first place and rebuild their pedestal with dome fresh blood and talent.


Edit: totally disagree on the Sakaguchi sucks argument. I thought Lost Odyssey and particularly Last Story were some of the best this gen. One with it's old school design and fresh coat of paint, one for fresh design and innovative approach, both for writing.
 
Saying Final Fantasy is dead a little bit like saying Star Wars is dead. I mean there hasn't been a good Star Wars movie in years, and now it's not even Lucas's baby any more, but who's totally sworn off of them?
 
I've thought the same ever since they got rid of Sakaguchi. His stories came from a place of real, personal pain. Then they got the fucking shallow, fashion-focused Nomura to helm the games. Yeah, no thanks.
 
Callo Merlose said:
I've thought the same ever since they got rid of Sakaguchi. His stories came from a place of real, personal pain. Then they got the fucking shallow, fashion-focused Nomura to helm the games. Yeah, no thanks.
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Embarrassing. Nomura has never helmed a Final Fantasy.
 
CrimsonCrescendo said:
Normura hasn't been involved beyond character designing since FF VII.
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It's a good thing character designs have no bearing on plot or the quality of the characters.

Y2Kev said:
Embarrassing. Nomura has never helmed a Final Fantasy.
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He hasn't helmed a game but his characters have been shitting them up. FF's plot and story have never been good, but the addition of his character makes it more pronounced.

FF is slowly dying, but I wouldn't say it's dead yet. It's supposedly only 1 main entry which stunk it up this gen, but that single main number entry spawned some fucken horrible games. It basically took the stink of XIII and spread it across an entire console gen.
 
Y2Kev said:
Who cares though? I didn't say everyone liked it and if you don't you don't count. I said most did. FFX consistently ranks high in the polls run by Famitsu, too. My point was that it's generally very well liked and to imply otherwise is silly.
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I'd say FFX was a common jumping off point for a certain type of oldschool fan.. I spent the better part of the 2000s hearing from people complain about how FF is "anime" now, and FFX started it, etc. I never saw it as a game with a unanimous good reaction... I understand why Kohler would mention it in a long musing about FF decline, saying it was "ok".

But of course, VIII was also a common jumping off point. So was X-2, XII, XIII. This series changes so much, and not everyone is interested in anime storytelling past a certain age, that it seems perfectly natural to leave behind some people. It doesn't imply decline just because some people dropped FF... Only if overall sales/critical reception is bad.
 
Y2Kev said:
I think most people would agree that X was a critical and commercial success (and is loved between and amongst fans), so "not that bad" is kind of dishonest. This is like saying Eyes Wide Shut or Shawshank Redemption are mostly ok or something similarly feckless. And I take personal offense to anyone shitting on 12.

If the point is that 13 was disappointing, 13-2 shouldn't have happened, and 13-3 is an industry laughing stock, point taken. But why be so dramatic?
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Well said.

Frankly, the article is ridiculous. According to a couple different sources I found, X and XII are among the top 10 best selling PS2 games of all time. And though chances are XI is nowhere close to being among the best selling FF games, it still managed to be the most profitable in the long run, and continues to be a well loved game today. XIII took the polarization (wrong word?) within the franchise to a whole new level, and was legitimately disappointing, yet it undoubtedly met SE's expectations in terms of sales. As for XIV, no one should try to downplay what a disaster that game was and continues to be for SE, but it also makes little sense to pretty much totally ignore the great praise surrounding the improvements Yoshida's team have made. Lastly, and perhaps the most obvious thing, is the obvious excitement for XV really somehow less important as a data point than the existence of boob physics in a spin-off?

This article is no better than some of the Kotaku stuff people hold up as so damning. I'm surprised so many seem to be taking it seriously.

WolvenOne said:
The franchise itself isn't dead, but the FF8 team. (The guys responsible for 8, 10, and 13,) shouldn't be let anywhere near the franchise ever again, EVER! Honestly, I'm surprised Square hadn't learned their lesson on this after 8, though I suppose 10 wasn't too bad.

I'm enjoying FFXIV ARR however, and I have reasonable confidence in XV.
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Aside from VIII and X both being amazing, the biggest problem with this post is that it's totally wrong to imply the same teams made those games and XIII. You say you have reasonable confidence in XV, yet you'd apparently forbid some of the core people behind it to ever work on FF games again. :p
 
CrimsonCrescendo said:
Let's be honest: that fanbase had to put up with Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06, and Sonic Unleashed all in a row. I don't care what you say, no main Final Fantasy (excluding XIV) has ever fallen to those depths. They had a legit reason to cry "Sonic is dead".
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Yes, though disagree on Unleashed (it was half an excellent game and half a mediocre one, rather than the actual pure insults otherwise listed, though Heroes is dead nostalgic for me).

So in timespan, Sonic Heroes was 2003, by my reckoning at Sonic Unleashed (2008) it was good again - more widely agreeable is that Colours was at 2010. So about 7 years let's say.

FFX was 2001 and that was a divisive game in many ways, doing away with many of the traditional Final Fantasy aspects and introducing to the series many things people have debated caused weakness in the franchise. Prior to this I think VIII was the most divisive but the bad taste quickly washed away by IX for many. However, gaps between numbered entries became bigger, going MMO with some numbered iterations alienated fans who grew up with it as an offline franchise (still annoys me that they're mainline games). Each game is in some way divisive. Hyperbolic articles are arising about the current state of the franchise. So I'm over a decade into hoping I get 'that' feeling with a Final Fantasy again that I haven't really felt since IX. Sonic came back in a shorter time though the suffering was arguably greater.
 
rockx4 said:
It's a good thing character designs have no bearing on plot or the quality of the characters.
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It doesn't. Normura literally draws the characters and calls it a day. He has no input as to their personality, character arc, or anything else. Blame Normura if you don't like the way the characters look, blame the director and script writers if you don't like the characters themselves.
 
Y2Kev said:
Sakaguchi sucks and his post-FF games are proof of that. Everyone needs to deal with it and worship the actual genius behind the FF5-6-7 in the battle system designers, the artists, the character designers, and most of all Yoshinori Kitase.
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I don't think he sucks, but he certainly doesn't turn everything he touches to gold. A lot of people give far too much reverence to Sakaguchi to the point where they seriously believe he was the solitary reason why the series was ever good, and that his leaving instantly killed the series, which can never be good again. It's absurd. There were, and are, a number of talented individuals working at Square that were responsible for the creation of everyone's favorite Final Fantasy games.
 
CrimsonCrescendo said:
It doesn't. Normura literally draws the characters and calls it a day. He has no input as to their personality, character arc, or anything else. Blame Normura if you don't like the way the characters look, blame the director and script writers if you don't like the characters themselves.
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I does, shitty aesthetic designs are part of the character...
 
rockx4 said:
It's a good thing character designs have no bearing on plot or the quality of the characters.



He hasn't helmed a game but his characters have been shitting them up. FF's plot and story have never been good, but the addition of his character makes it more pronounced.

FF is slowly dying, but I wouldn't say it's dead yet. It's supposedly only 1 main entry which stunk it up this gen, but that single main number entry spawned some fucken horrible games. It basically took the stink of XIII and spread it across an entire console gen.
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Nomura draws to spec.

Square Enix sucks. It is one of the biggest failure stories of this gen. The mismanagement is incredible. But I definitely do not attribute this to Nomura. That is hilarious. He's barely had anything to do with it at all. In fact, the games he's actually directed have all been pretty well received and sold well.
 
Y2Kev said:
Embarrassing. Nomura has never helmed a Final Fantasy.
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It's amazing how often I see people assume that Nomura is in charge of all things Final Fantasy.

My interest in the recent Final Fantasy games is pretty much non existent, but I am aware that there are multiple directors and teams within Square-Enix that make these games. When people say that Final Fantasy is over they always seem to assume that the creators of the last game are in charge of all of them. I have zero interest in anything XIII, but I have enjoyed the gameplay in Kingdom Hearts and that has made me interested in XV. My dislike of XIII has zero affect on what I think XV will be like because it is being made by different people.
 
Pardon me for not wanting to read through 17 pages, but did we all discuss how Wired basically copied a Kotaku article?

Because that's the troubling thing to me.
 
Xisiqomelir said:
I'm sure I'm not the only person who put 13 on, went into that 1st boss fight (the FF7 ripoff), and wondered whether the game was actually HD.
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I don't really understand what you mean by that. You thought it looked bad or that it was standard definition? In any case I feel that is quite silly, thoughts on FFXIII aside, outside of some poor character models and textures it still stands out pretty well and certainly at the time it was a pretty incredible visual experience. The backgrounds are incredibly full of life and in constant movement, especially the opening with the ships in the background fighting and flying about.
 
i completely skipped FF this generation, and I suspect many have done so too.

ff15 looks pretty good though, might get that if it turns out good.
 
If FF is dead, what does that make Silent Hill?
 
Y2Kev said:
Nomura draws to spec.

Square Enix sucks. It is one of the biggest failure stories of this gen. The mismanagement is incredible. But I definitely do not attribute this to Nomura. That is hilarious. He's barely had anything to do with it at all. In fact, the games he's actually directed have all been pretty well received and sold well.
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I don't consider him the main reason, but I think the character designs in XIII were horrible. I just look at the art from XIII, XIII-2, XIII-3 and it makes me lose interest in future FF games.
 
Y2Kev said:
Sakaguchi sucks and his post-FF games are proof of that. Everyone needs to deal with it and worship the actual genius behind the FF5-6-7 in the battle system designers, the artists, the character designers, and most of all Yoshinori Kitase.
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I would say Hiroyuki Ito deserves a name drop more in this instance. Seeing as he designed all the core systems FFs are known for, and having directed 6 and 9, which are typically among the most favoured.
 
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