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[badb0y]

Having a stronger GPU on paper does not necessarily mean that the real time performance will be that better. It really depends on how well you can feed the GPU with the right data and at the right time. It's all about GPU utilisation. I think the eSRAM in Xbox One will play a big hand in this.

Nope. eSRAM was put in because of the lack of bandwidth DDR3 memory has. Any other spin to make it into "special sauce" is wrong.

Having a stronger GPU on paper does not necessarily mean that the real time performance will be that better.

That's exactly what it means especially when both chips are coming from the same vendor with the same underlying architecture.

 

[thuway]

Water is wet etc.

 

[Synless]

Devs wont release games with different FPS on the different consoles, they'll bring them to parity even if it means holding back the PS4 version slighty

When has this ever been the case? Never.

 

[professor_t]

Yes, because the PS3 deserved it.

Carmack is honest and calls it how it is.

Pretty much.

The PS3 produced some amazing games, of course, but from a development perspective it was a nightmare.

And people are saying he's being politically correct in equating the two consoles? What path of political correctness leads to the open ridicule of a pillar of Microsoft's console strategy? You people aren't serious, right?

He's being careful because he hasn't actually tested them yet.

 

[Loofy]

I'm not saying that. He said that more powerful hardware will show an improvement graphically for multiplatform games. I'm saying the reality is that it hasn't been so in the past for a variety of reasons.

I think that most multiplatform games on Xbox One and PS4 will look virtually identical for the same reasons.

Im sure they'll 'look' virtually identical. For the same reason a person with a 7770 can run a game that looks exactly the same as a person whos running a 7850. But they wont run the same.

 

[FairXchange]

It's more like a 3fps frame rate hit.

The PS4 GPU is significantly stronger than the Xbone's on paper. I follow PC GPUs closely and this sort of power gap typically yields a considerable performance difference. I'd be downright amazed if this only resulted in an average of 3fps performance difference, as you suggest or others are also alluding to.

I'm expecting noticeable difference, perhaps not immediately from multiplatform titles, but certainly from 1st party games with the first years and after.

That's my personal feeling, I had a similar outlook on how PS3 would perform relative to 360, and I think anyone who has played TLOU knows what I mean.

 

[Chobel]

Given the recent information that the eSRAM can be written and read to at the same time, under the right circumstances. Bandwidth could be very high. And if latency is lower for eSRAM then there are circumstances where that might help to achieve a high utilisation of the Xbox One GPU.

8GB GDDR5 is always 176GB/s, 32 MB eSRAM is 102GB/s and might get to 196GB/s (I believe it's bullshit, but let's not argue that).

Again XB1 GPU is less powerful than PS4 GPU, even if you utilise all XB1 GPU power it will never come close to PS4 GPU.

 

[Dark Octave]

Wouldn't it be a trip if he showed up to one of these events all on swol one day?

 

[Rourkey]

Sounds like most people won't see the difference in the graphics and if you are that decerning of a critic, why are you even playing on consoles instead of PC?

.

Also have we ever had a gen where the main consoles battling it out are so close to each other?

 

[funkystudent]

So did he say anything about what the heck ID is doing? (Other then slowly imploding)

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Technically? He is.

Rage may have had issues on PC, but what he managed to do on consoles was pretty amazing. That's coming from someone who owns the texture loading tastic PS3 version to save on disc swapping.

Those visuals, at 60 frames, with that kinda texture quality? Man is a genius.

Don't take me the wrong way, I just think he's not as relevant as he's been in the past. Not in my eyes. That includes his opinions of HW in it's infancy.

 

[TheD]

I'm not saying that. He said that more powerful hardware will show an improvement graphically for multiplatform games. I'm saying the reality is that it hasn't been so in the past for a variety of reasons.

I think that most multiplatform games on Xbox One and PS4 will look virtually identical for the same reasons.

That is not logical, the PS3 and 360 are not the PS4 and the XB1!
The power of the PS3 was tied up in the SPEs, the system could not just auto balance the load between the SPEs and the RSX, programmers had to program graphical tasks for the SPE to do and find ways to best integrate it with the output of the RSX.
The PS4 on the other hand just has a flat out faster version of the GPU architecture the XB1 has!

 

[cyberheater]

8GB GDDR5 is always 176GB/s, 32 MB eSRAM is 102GB/s and might get to 196GB/s (I believe it's bullshit, but let's not argue that).

Again XB1 GPU is less powerful than PS4 GPU, even if you utilise all XB1 GPU power it will never come close to PS4 GPU.

I might be wrong but the 32mb eSRAM in Xbox One is effectively decoupled from the main memory so that the Xbox One's GPU can work on that memory pool while the CPU is working on the main memory pool without contention.

The PS4 memory architecture means that the GPU and CPU are both sharing bandwidth.

Due to memory contention issues, I can see some scenarios where the Xbox Ones GPU is better utilised which should narrow the performance gap.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Technically? He is.

Rage may have had issues on PC, but what he managed to do on consoles was pretty amazing. That's coming from someone who owns the texture loading tastic PS3 version to save on disc swapping.

Those visuals, at 60 frames, with that kinda texture quality? Man is a genius.

It was a mess on consoles. The texture pop-in was atrocious.

 

[i-Lo]

I might be wrong but the 32mb eSRAM in Xbox One is effectively decoupled from the main memory so that the Xbox One's GPU can work on that memory pool while the CPU is working on the main memory pool without contention.

The PS4 memory architecture means that the GPU and CPU are both sharing bandwidth.

Due to memory contention issues, I can see some scenarios where the Xbox Ones GPU is better utilised which should narrow the performance gap.

Have you heard the word of Saint Garlic and Onion pipelines being designed to avoid such disharmonising contention?

 

[beast786]

Water is wet etc.

I could be mistaken. But didnt you say that PS4 MP will clearly perform noticeably better?

 

[imtehman]

Don't take me the wrong way, I just think he's not as relevant as he's been in the past. Not in my eyes. That includes his opinions of HW in it's infancy.

Dude's a prophet.

He;'s more than relevant, in fact, he is the forefront when it comes to hardware in its infancy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFUw29U4J8

if he was right back the, it stands to reason he knows what he's talkign about right now

 

[RoboPlato]

I could be mistaken. But didnt you say that PS4 MP will clearly perform noticeably better?

Noticeably better can still mean very close.

 

[anexanhume]

I might be wrong but the 32mb eSRAM in Xbox One is effectively decoupled from the main memory so that the Xbox One's GPU can work on that memory pool while the CPU is working on the main memory pool without contention.

The PS4 memory architecture means that the GPU and CPU are both sharing bandwidth.

Due to memory contention issues, I can see some scenarios where the Xbox Ones GPU is better utilised which should narrow the performance gap.

No. The PS4 CPU could gobble up its entire 20 GB/s allotment and the GPU would still have almost double the bandwidth available in the entire X1 main memory bus.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

No, it's just been well known that the 360 had about between 75% to 80% of better multiplats because of it's easier architecture than the PS3 & that 3rd party developers have to spend more time, money, & energy just to even get the PS3 version of games on par with the 360 versions of games because of the cell architecture.

That's all.

I think your blame on the cell architecture is misplaced. The elite guys and girls working in the top studios have the technical skill, budget, and time to push consoles in ways few can match. That's why games like The Division or a GTA V can objectively go toe to toe with any exclusive because 1st parties aren't the only people who know what they're doing. And in the PS3's case they did their best at the time, but the SPUs are not magical components that offset every deficiency of the RSX. The elite studios regardless of who they work for will push the PS4 and it will be better than the Xbox One.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Dude's a prophet.

He;'s more than relevant, in fact, he is the forefront when it comes to hardware in its infancy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFUw29U4J8

if he was right back the, it stands to reason he knows what he's talkign about right now

Good points brought up.

I'm a little pessimistic to believe anyone about new HW's potential. Not this early in the game though. Good video there though. Gotta love his insight.

 

[Loofy]

Dude's a prophet.

He;'s more than relevant, in fact, he is the forefront when it comes to hardware in its infancy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFUw29U4J8

if he was right back the, it stands to reason he knows what he's talkign about right now

Im almost positive it was Carmack that said multicore cpus were overrated...

 

[cyberheater]

Have you heard the word of Saint Garlic and Onion pipelines being designed to avoid such disharmonising contention?

Any links?

 

[thuway]

Universal facts folks need to accept:

1. PS4 is more powerful. The "edge" in performance will not be apparent at launch, nor will it be grandiose in third party titles. Give PS4 a year or two, and than it will become more obvious. The vast majority of the general public will be completely unphased since the difference between true 1080p, a modified 1080p, and MSAA versus MLAA will go straight over their heads.

2. It will take time before the PS4 is truly tapped. Some very interesting hardware customizations will give it longer legs than the Xbox 1 in terms of pulling off late gen magic tricks.

3. Xbone Fans: Your games will look fine, but stop parroting this narrative where Xbox 1 is equal in performance to PS4! It isn't, it won't be, it's not going to happen. There is not going to be a Venus XT 8990 with 12 GB RAM. Microsoft does not give two fucks about performance gaps as long as the port is a facsimile. GTA V will most likely perform better on Xbox 360, will it stop PS3 fans from buying it?

In reference to Carmack, RAGE performed worse on PS3. Carmack claimed it had exactly the same performance in the months before launch. His definition of "close" is exactly the opposite of what people care about when they read Digital Foundry Head to Heads. RAGE was one of the worse offenders in the poor PS3 port list.


TL;DR: They are close, but close is a relative term, especially to a developer creating a title for the mass market. If you want better performance, PS4 is in 1st place. The era of 360 level supremacy in ports is done.

I could be mistaken. But didnt you say that PS4 MP will clearly perform noticeably better?

They will IMO.

 

[squidyj]

Dude's a prophet.

He;'s more than relevant, in fact, he is the forefront when it comes to hardware in its infancy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFUw29U4J8

if he was right back the, it stands to reason he knows what he's talkign about right now

I remember an interview where he was like "we've had tessellation units for years, it's never going to happen" right before tessellation was exposed in the Directx API and started happening. I always thought that was hilarious.

 

[beast786]

Dude's a prophet.

He;'s more than relevant, in fact, he is the forefront when it comes to hardware in its infancy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFUw29U4J8

if he was right back the, it stands to reason he knows what he's talkign about right now

so if PS4 at minimum can enjoy the same very close MP better performance like 360 did and also be 100 bucks cheaper. Than his 2005 prediction will be correct again

 

[Whiteshirt]

I might be wrong but the 32mb eSRAM in Xbox One is effectively decoupled from the main memory so that the Xbox One's GPU can work on that memory pool while the CPU is working on the main memory pool without contention.

The PS4 memory architecture means that the GPU and CPU are both sharing bandwidth.

Due to memory contention issues, I can see some scenarios where the Xbox Ones GPU is better utilised which should narrow the performance gap.

The DDR3 memory is still the main memory source of the APU, just like Sony's GDDR5. With Sony, all they're doing is letting the onion and garlic buses separate the bandwidth internally however they like. This is 176 GB/s, just like whatever speed the DDR3 the Xbox One uses. All of these APUs have main memory they use for CPU and GPU tasks and there's only one way in.

With the PS4, you have CPU and GPU. With the Xbox One, you have to feed the embedded memory for the GPU with DDR3. So I can't see how you're getting to your conclusion.

Any links?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=628386

These APUs could fucking suck without this.

 

[cyberheater]

No. The PS4 CPU could gobble up its entire 20 GB/s allotment and the GPU would still have almost double the bandwidth available in the entire X1 main memory bus.

In my example. I'm not talking about the main memory bus on it's own. I'm also factoring the eSRAM.

 

[Chobel]

I might be wrong but the 32mb eSRAM in Xbox One is effectively decoupled from the main memory so that the Xbox One's GPU can work on that memory pool while the CPU is working on the main memory pool without contention.

The PS4 memory architecture means that the GPU and CPU are both sharing bandwidth.

Due to memory contention issues, I can see some scenarios where the Xbox Ones GPU is better utilised which should narrow the performance gap.

Actually it's not. this is how GPU and CPU work in PS4:

you can read more in this thread

 

[TheD]

I might be wrong but the 32mb eSRAM in Xbox One is effectively decoupled from the main memory so that the Xbox One's GPU can work on that memory pool while the CPU is working on the main memory pool without contention.

The PS4 memory architecture means that the GPU and CPU are both sharing bandwidth.

Due to memory contention issues, I can see some scenarios where the Xbox Ones GPU is better utilised which should narrow the performance gap.

Unless you want the total graphical assets per a frame (and thus also per a level due to it not being allowed to load anything up during game play) to be under 32MB the XB1 GPU (directly or otherwise) will have to also access main RAM!

 

[cyberheater]

With the Xbox One, you have to feed the embedded memory for the GPU with DDR3. So I can't see how you're getting to your conclusion.

With the memory architecture diagrams I've seen. It appears that the Xbox One GPU are eSRAM are connected in a manner which allows the GPU to read and write data to the eSRAM without requiring to use the main DDR3 memory bus which would effectively allow the memory pools to be decoupled.

 

[CaptainSlow]

Its nice to heart that the consoles aren't going to be so vastly different from each other. When I see people get into RAM fights online, it just never makes sense to me. We've been spoiled with both consoles having 8GB of RAM each (regardless of how much is allocated where) that we seem to forget that games like The Last of Us, Halo 4, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim, etc. all ran on 512MB of RAM... 512!!! Games are going to look amazing on BOTH consoles. Hell...even the Wii U with 2 is a huge step up from this gen.

 

[badb0y]

Oh man, some real nice golden lines of idiocy in this thread.

So there seems to be a couple different groups of opinions popping up in this thread that I would like to address.

1.) Xbox One eSRAM will utilize the GPU better than the PS4 can erasing the 50% of raw GPU computational power the PS4 has!

Nope. Already beaten to death in previous threads if you would like to read up on them use the search function.

2.) The PS3 was supposedly better than the Xbox 360 but we never saw it in the games!

The PS3 was not stronger than the Xbox 360.....the Xbox 360 had a better GPU and better RAM setup than the PS3 but the PS3 had a better CPU which was hard to program for. If you look at the PS3 specs and Xbox 360 specs you will realize that it's impossible to compare the systems directly without making assumptions and looking like an idiot. Now go look at the PS4 specs and Xbox One specs and you will quickly realize how different the current gen situation is compared to the next gen consoles. We can easily identify that the PS4 is more powerful because both consoles use the same architecture with similar design decisions coming from the same vendor.

3.) If you care about graphics so much go to the PC!

This is about as ignorant as it gets when it comes to gaming. If we didn't care about the graphics of consoles then what's the point of even having a next gen system we should just stick with the current gen systems and let the enthusiasts move to the PC. Consoles have exclusives that many PC gamers like to play for example I am primarily a PC gamer but I like to play games like Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted, and The Last of Us so should I just ignore the exclusives and sit on the PC because I care about graphics quality. Anyone who says that graphics quality doesn't matter on consoles is being a disingenuous gamer and we all want the PS4 and Xbox One to have capable hardware to last 5-7 years down the line, that means the better the hardware incorporated in the box now, the better the console will age over time.

As for Carmack he is right the consoles are very close when it comes to system capability but then again just because you can play the same game on a HD 7770 and a HD 7850 doesn't mean it's going to be the same experience. At the very least third party developers should be able to bump the graphics up a notch or two on the PS4 and still get the same frame-rate as the Xbox One.

 

[Chobel]

With the memory architecture diagrams I've seen. It appears that the Xbox One GPU are eSRAM are connected in a manner which allows the GPU to read and write data to the eSRAM without requiring to use the main DDR3 memory bus which would effectively allow the memory pools to be decoupled.

eSRAM is small (just 32MB), in big 3D scenes (more like every scene) GPU will have to access to DDR3.

 

[cyberheater]

Actually it's not. this is how GPU and CPU work in PS4:

Actually it is. PS4 memory has a finite bandwidth limit. Everything that uses it has to share it.

 

[imtehman]

so if PS4 at minimum can enjoy the same very close MP better performance like 360 did and also be 100 bucks cheaper. Than his 2005 prediction will be correct again

All he said was that the two next gen consoles will be close, which is in stark contrast to the rhetoric that has been rampant in these forums

 

[Ateron]

Going by Carmack's word, I don't know what the hell sony execs were thinking about. Spending millions on a better, more customized GPU than the one on the competitor´s console, with 8 more CUs and 16 more ROPs, invest in better and faster RAM only to get parity in performance. They should get sacked, I tell ya, for Carmack has spoken.

I'm sorry but this debate is ridiculous, both consoles are using components from the same manufacturer, they're totally comparable. It's like debating what's beter: 2 apples or 3 apples for the same price?

Console wars be damned, this is simple math.

 

[cyberheater]

eSRAM is small (just 32MB), in big 3D scenes (more like every scene) GPU will have to access to DDR3.

Yes I understand that. But it could be useful for stuff like anti aliasing and post processing etc...

 

[Ol No Bones]

I don't know why everybody is do adamant about wanting the PS4 to be more powerful than the Xbox One. Even if they do end up having similar graphical output, it's still going to be great for us gamers and a huge step up. And if PS4 games end up having better graphical output than Xbox One, then great for us PS4 owners.

i agree that it's better if they are close. Both consoles will have parity in most respects graphically I think but I might be underestimating the advantage of the ps4. Time will tell.

 

[Whiteshirt]

With the memory architecture diagrams I've seen. It appears that the Xbox One GPU are eSRAM are connected in a manner which allows the GPU to read and write data to the eSRAM without requiring to use the main DDR3 memory bus which would effectively allow the memory pools to be decoupled.

And its still only 32mb. DDR3 is still essential, especially if you want to do post-processing and other shit with the GPU.

 

[JWong]

Search Titanfall in the thread... I am disappointed.

Specs are as close as a developer would say so they can use that as an excuse as to why one is not better than the other when it clearly should be.

 

[Chobel]

Actually it is. PS4 memory has a finite bandwidth limit. Everything that uses it has to share it.

DID YOU SEE THE IMAGE!!! THIS IMAGE:

In case you don't understand, there are 4 buses :GPU has his own bus, CPU has his own bus, CPU and GPU share 2 buses.

 

[Satchel]

The power difference between the PS3/360 is considered a lot closer than the PS4/XBO

The difficult PS3 architecture is what caused it to not surpass the 360 in most multiplatform games. That will not be the case this gen with the far more simple, and more powerful PS4.

When did I talk about power?

I was talking architecture.

 

[cyberheater]

DID YOU SEE THE IMAGE!!! THIS IMAGE:

In case you don't understand, there are 4 buses :GPU has his own bus, CPU has his own bus, CPU and GPU share 2 buses.

Okay. Let me ask you. How much total bandwidth does that diagram show?

 

[McHuj]

DID YOU SEE THE IMAGE!!! THIS IMAGE:

In case you don't understand, there are 4 buses :GPU has his own bus, CPU has his own bus, CPU and GPU share 2 buses.

There are four busses but the memory can only operate at 176 GB/sec so if all of them were active the sum of their traffic can't exceed 176 GB/sec.

 

[cyberheater]

There are four busses but the memory can only operate at 176 GB/sec so if all of them were active the sum of their traffic can't exceed 176 GB/sec.

Don't give him hints.

 

[thuway]

I guess people missed my post completely above. What are we arguing about? What is the definition of "Very close" performance? What are Carmack's credentials / agendas? Is it propaganda that PS4 is more powerful than Xbox 1?

 

[Chobel]

Okay. Let me ask you. How much total bandwidth does that diagram show?

I don't understand. Do you want me to calculate the sum of bandwidth of all buses??

 

[anexanhume]

In my example. I'm not talking about the main memory bus on it's own. I'm also factoring the eSRAM.

And where is the eSRAM getting its data?

Hint: not magic

 

[USC-fan]

There are four busses but the memory can only operate at 176 GB/sec so if all of them were active the sum of their traffic can't exceed 176 GB/sec.

Thats only to main Ram but the console can read from cache cpu/gpu or even bypass the cache also...