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Breaking Bad - Season 5, Part 2 - The Final Eight Episodes - Sundays on AMC

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Batigol said:
Her only purpose is to foil Walt in some capacity.

There is nothing else to her character. She's not funny, interesting or fascinating. There is nothing to her character, except to be an annoyance.

Characters like Gus are Walt terrible people. Far worse than Skyler, but they're great characters, with layers of substance to them.
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Agreed. Skyler is annoying as fuck.
 
vpance said:
It's just that that kind of reveal isn't interesting to me is all. Yet another Jesse gets mad at Walt, and then will they or won't they become friends again? It's all part of the Walt must get exposed and pay for his evil moral choices expectation. All I'm saying is that it would be more interesting to not see those things happen.
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Yeah well hopefully you'll still enjoy the season if those things do happen.

I will say though that if Jesse finds out, I don't think he's going to ever be friends with Walt again, how could he? Why would they do a will/won't they become friends storyline again after that?

Now personally I'm fine with the show ending with Walt paying for his sins or getting away with his crimes so long as the execution is interesting and it makes sense.

Oh well hopefully this final season will be good and full of unexpected moments.
 
UrbanRats said:
No way.
Walt is no Hannibal Lecter, c'mon.

I think you're making the character more bidimensional than he is.
When he cries to Walter Jr., he clerly cares.
When he lets Jane dies, that clearly affects him.
When he goes to take Jesse back from that crack house, he's clearly moved.

What Walt does, is he lies to himself, he can hide things inside so well, that they're lost forever.
That's what he does with the plane crash, that's what he does with his constant mantra "i have to ____ for my family" and so on and so on.

even Gilligan said that he and his writers, refer to Walter's super power as the ability to lie (to others and himself).
He's the ultimate delusional, but he is no sociopath.

Only in the latest seasons (4 nd 5) i can see his detachment from reality becoming a real sense of emotional detachment (him whistling when the kid dies) but i still read that as him living, at that point, on a completely other planet.
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I think you're a little confused about what a sociopath is. Which is fair. I don't think sociopath/psychopath are real medical diagnoses so there's a lot of grey area.

Hannibal Lecter is not a sociopath. How is he making any effort to fit into society? lol
 
Batigol said:
Her only purpose is to foil Walt in some capacity.

There is nothing else to her character. She's not funny, interesting or fascinating. There is nothing to her character, except to be an annoyance.

Characters like Gus are Walt terrible people. Far worse than Skyler, but they're great characters, with layers of substance to them.
Click to expand...

There aren't layers of substance to Skyler? She's not interesting? Here is a woman, after learning that her husband was a meth cooking murdered, concocted a scheme to help them launder the money and provide a shred of protection for her family, even though Walt's carelessness and inability to empathesize continues to place them closer to danger because he wants more.

She's not warm. That's fine. But she's shrewd, imperfect, and incredibly compelling. I'm sorry you don't see her that way. I cannot for the life of me understand accusations that she serves no purpose other than to be a roadblock because that fundamentally misunderstands her journey and arc through the show.

KMD said:
All you damn #TeamSkyler people are nothing but misandrists.
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Cut it out with this shitty strawman. There are plenty of female characters that are poorly written, lack nuance, or are examples of male writers lacking the ability to write women. This is not one of them. In fact, the exteme dislike for Skyler might say something about what we do expect and understand about our female characters on TV.
 
ivysaur12 said:
Nameless said:
I literally qualified the point as not being simple as I was stating. I've also stated, multiple times, that Skyler is not a bastion of morality and has her own share of problems. That doesn't change the fact that I see her as a genuinely good person who has made their mistakes after being placed in incredibly difficult circumstances.
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So Walt hasn't? Cancer's not a difficult situation? His partner about to have a shootout with Fring's henchmen wasn't difficult? How about choosing between allowing Hank to die and uprooting his entire life? I wonder, what would you do if a drug lord wanted you and your family dead? Do you honesty know the line you wouldn't cross?

If you're going to cast full light on Skyler's plight at least afford Walt the same courtesy.
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Amir0x said:
He is a sociopath and the writers know it.



He is a sociopath and the writers have made sure to write him that way. That's also probably why so many show watchers are fooled into thinking he has genuine emotions for his family - sociopaths, in order to function in society, often adapt by learning how to very effectively fake such emotions.
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Well i'm saying i disagree with that diagnosis. :P
I can see in later seasons Walt acting as a completely uncaring sociopath (not caring = doesn't care to mimic normal behavior) but there are several emotional points in the past seasons where he had to fool no one but himself, so his emotions would've had to be genuine.

I think he went through a life time of bitterness and self delusion, the delusion took over in an explosive way and kept eating away at him, to the point where he became completely detached from reality and became desensitized to horrifying things.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but sociopathy is a precise mental illness, where you are completely unable to feel empathy, right? By this definition, i don't think Walt fits the criteria.
Not every major piece of shit has to be a sociopath, after all.

EBCubs03 said:
I think you're a little confused about what a sociopath is. Which is fair. I don't think sociopath/psychopath are real medical diagnoses so there's a lot of grey area.

Hannibal Lecter is not a sociopath. How is he making any effort to fit into society? lol
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I'm referring to the Hannibal Lecter prior to incarceration (the one in the TV show, for example).
He would be a psychopath, as he expresses violent behavior.

Anyway, there were a couple of interesting links posted in a thread about the subject, a couple of weeks back.

EDIT: This was the thread - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=72668331
 
Batigol said:
Her only purpose is to foil Walt in some capacity.

There is nothing else to her character. She's not funny, interesting or fascinating. There is nothing to her character, except to be an annoyance.

Characters like Gus are Walt terrible people. Far worse than Skyler, but they're great characters, with layers of substance to them.
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This post is a pretty great prototype of how and why the Skyler haters are wrong about everything.

The key to unraveling the argument is that you define what she does as existing to be an 'annoyance.' It is not an 'annoyance' to tell your spouse to stop cooking meth. It is not an 'annoyance' to be angry or in shock when you find out your spouse killed. It is not an 'annoyance' to mull over whether to turn this guy in to the authorities. It is not an 'annoyance' to do what it takes to preserve your family, as the monster in the living continually consumes all the air until you can barely stand the breathe anymore. Skyler is a housewife, she married Walt like that, and her dreams of her 2.5 kids and her little house were thought to be shared by her husband. She has watched, piece by piece, as this man she thought she knew spun out of control until he is barely recognizable, a messy streak on a foggy mirror. She watched as he manipulated her son, so that he would blame her for the turmoil in the family. She knew that Holly is in for the exact same fate as she looked on in horror and sees Walt and Holly and Jr. watching Scarface together. And when it came to it, she compromised her own moral standing in order to try to take a chance at keeping the family together in some way and not ruin Walt Jr. and Holly's perception of their father.

Skyler represents as a character exactly what type of toll Walt takes on everyone that ever loved him. She represents the moral decay that merely being around Walt guarantees. She represents the desperation of every trapped house wife in an abusive relationship, who insanely tries to do anything to protect the shattered remains of her family until it's too late to realize there's no going back. She is a fantastic character, effectively performed by Anna Gunn, and she has perfectly fit into the show as the contextual weight highlighting the monster in her kitchen.
 
Nameless said:
ivysaur12 said:
So Walt hasn't? Cancer's not a difficult situation? His partner about to have a shootout with Fring's henchmen wasn't difficult? How about choosing between allowing Hank to die and uprooting his entire life? I wonder, what would you do if a drug lord wanted you and your family dead? Do you honesty know the line you wouldn't cross?

If you're going to cast full light on Skyler's plight at least afford Walt the same courtesy.
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Walt has far moved pased any realm of sympathy and, plenty times, has the ability to "get out". He hasn't, and in the process has trust all those around him further into danger due to his own delusions of grandeur. While his initial circumstances are sympathetic, he choose to turn down money offered to him to avoid this entire mess and chose to, I don't know, make meth -- it's incredibly proud and stupid.

Any sympathy I had for Walt was diminished at that reveal and has now been completely destroyed. I'm fascinated by him and also horrified.
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i forgot that i get the east coast feed for AMC, hello 6pm showing! only 3 hours to go :)
 
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UrbanRats said:
Well he clearly isn't sociopathic, as he expresses genuine empathy all throughout the show.
The reason why he left Gray Matter as i remember it, was because he didn't want to stay with Gretchen due to her family being very rich.
Yeah, he had a severe inferiority complex, but hardly a one way ticket for the monster he became, like some of you make it sound.
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I disagree that Walter's empathy is ever genuine. Everything he does is in his own self-interest. The clearest example occurs early in the last season, when he asks Jesse's opinion about their current business deal with Mike. Jesse begins to talk about his relationship issues before Walt angrily cuts him off and clarifies he is only talking about business and couldn't care less about Jesse's personal life. He supported Jesse at rehab because he needed a partner. He let Jane die even though she was important to Jesse. He spends time with his son only to curry favor with his wife or out of spite to make him look like the better parent. You want a new car? Let's get you one!

I don't think Walter ever cared that Gretchen's family is rich. It's a bit murky, but he did create a scenario where he was the victim in the arrangement and Gretchen's reaction at their last meeting indicates Walter was completely delusional. He became an "overqualified high school teacher" all on his own but blames everybody and everything else.

Simply put, Walter's character development and downward spiral has been nothing short of fascinating.
 
Batigol said:
Her only purpose is to foil Walt in some capacity.

There is nothing else to her character. She's not funny, interesting or fascinating. There is nothing to her character, except to be an annoyance.
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Creating the gambling story for Walt (thus giving him a way to actually spend his money)

Buying the car wash for the purpose of laundering money

Rescuing Ted from his audit with the IRS

Right, she isn't proactive or clever at all.

Again, she only did those things because Walt (and Ted) were being careless idiots. Thinking she was being an "annoyance" for trying to provide cover stories for their behavior is like the a little kid getting annoyed his mom is nagging him.
 
I like Betty a lot more than Skyler as a character but Betty is definitely a worse person.

What does that make me? I dunno, I just find Skyler kinda boring. I get her, she just snoozes me.
 
ivysaur12 said:
Why would anyone root for Walt over Skylar? Walt is, to make it as simple as possible, and evil human being seemingly incapable of empathy. Skylar is flawed, but genuinely a good person who cares deeply for her family and two children (much more than Walt does).
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Why would anyone root for an evil villain in a fictional story? Especially when this villain is cast in the leading role as an antihero? Are you completely new to fiction or what?

I don't understand the hate or dislike, and at this point, every one should be rooting for Skylar to escape this situation. I don't really understand any of the other alternatives... she married a monster.
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Oh, I see there's only one correct way to view and interpret this show! I didn't realize that things were so simple, but thanks for letting us all know! You hear that, guys? We haven't been watching the show correctly! What we SHOULD be doing is rooting for Skylar!

I think it speaks to how we view female characters who aren't bastions of purity. Skylar is not perfect. She's not funny. She's not exactly the type of person you'd want to surround yourself with at a party. But look who she married, look at her goals... there's no reason not to root for her, and I can't for the life of me understand those who don't.
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Right, just like how Jar Jar Binks was a good guy character who cared about the other protagonists and always fought on the side of the good guys! There's no reason NOT to like him, so if anybody happened not to... they must have been watching the movie incorrectly as well!
 
Here's the issue I have with the "Walt is just a sociopath". That is an infinitely less interesting show to me.

I think Walt was originally wired normal, emotionally, and motivated by some logical circumstances to start down this path. But he got lost, caught up in the game, didnt know when to quit, and lost his morality.

I think he made the decision to be emotionally manipulative, as one of his dirty tricks to get the job done. I do not think he's naturally non-empathetic... It's something he has willed himself to become, in order to win the game.
 
Mr. Saturn said:
Yeah well hopefully you'll still enjoy the season if those things do happen.

I will say though that if Jesse finds out, I don't think he's going to ever be friends with Walt again, how could he? Why would they do a will/won't they become friends storyline again after that?

Now personally I'm fine with the show ending with Walt paying for his sins or getting away with his crimes so long as the execution is interesting and it makes sense.

Oh well hopefully this final season will be good and full of unexpected moments.
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Yup, unexpected is all I want. Otherwise the final 8 just becomes a wrap it up kind of thing with explosions and deaths mixed in.

Jesse and Skyler team up to take on Declan after Walt dies mid way :)
kidding, that would be weird
 
This gets so many mentions on my Facebook and just online in general and yet the ratings seem oddly low...very loud minority or what?

I wonder if the final episodes will be a ratings record for the show since it's become steadily more popular
 
ah you know it's the latest Breaking Bad topic when Pez posts his latest insane theory about how a main character most be rooted for simply because he is the main character and how Vince Gilligan the showrunner is wrong about everything he has written because Pez doesn't like to hear the truth

You have been watching the show wrong. Deal.with.it. Just something you gotta deal with
 
Amir0x said:
This post is a pretty great prototype of how and why the Skyler haters are wrong about everything.

The key to unraveling the argument is that you define what she does as existing to be an 'annoyance.' It is not an 'annoyance' to tell your spouse to stop cooking meth. It is not an 'annoyance' to be angry or in shock when you find out your spouse killed. It is not an 'annoyance' to mull over whether to turn this guy in to the authorities. It is not an 'annoyance' to do what it takes to preserve your family, as the monster in the living continually consumes all the air until you can barely stand the breathe anymore. Skyler is a housewife, she married Walt like that, and her dreams of her 2.5 kids and her little house were thought to be shared by her husband. She has watched, piece by piece, as this man she thought she knew spun out of control until he is barely recognizable, a messy streak on a foggy mirror. She watched as he manipulated her son, so that he would blame her for the turmoil in the family. She knew that Holly is in for the exact same fate as she looked on in horror and sees Walt and Holly and Jr. watching Scarface together. And when it came to it, she compromised her own moral standing in order to try to take a chance at keeping the family together in some way and not ruin Walt Jr. and Holly's perception of their father.

Skyler represents as a character exactly what type of toll Walt takes on everyone that ever loved him. She represents the moral decay that merely being around Walt guarantees. She represents the desperation of every trapped house wife in an abusive relationship, who insanely tries to do anything to protect the shattered remains of her family until it's too late to realize there's no going back. She is a fantastic character, effectively performed by Anna Gunn, and she has perfectly fit into the show as the contextual weight highlighting the monster in her kitchen.
Click to expand...

The trouble is, there wasn't much of an evolution. She went from worried wife to 100% resentful immediately following the (season 2)
fugue state.
Now, of course that resentment was warranted but the trouble was, as Walt grew more wicked, in terms of acting, she couldn't really top what she'd laid down around episode 8 or 9.
 
Just finished my 5 day marathon re-watch, last time I kinda wanted Walt to win in the end, but now I am seeing Walt for the psychopath he really is and he really does need to die. The thing is I feel that Walt actually believes all his bullshit reasoning.
 
Ataraxia said:
I disagree that Walter's empathy is ever genuine. Everything he does is in his own self-interest. The clearest example occurs early in the last season, when he asks Jesse's opinion about their current business deal with Mike. Jesse begins to talk about his relationship issues before Walt angrily cuts him off and clarifies he is only talking about business and couldn't care less about Jesse's personal life. He supported Jesse at rehab because he needed a partner. He let Jane die even though she was important to Jesse. He spends time with his son only to curry favor with his wife or out of spite to make him look like the better parent. You want a new car? Let's get you one!

I don't think Walter ever cared that Gretchen's family is rich. It's a bit murky, but he did create a scenario where he was the victim in the arrangement and Gretchen's reaction at their last meeting indicates Walter was completely delusional. He became an "overqualified high school teacher" all on his own but blames everybody and everything else.

Simply put, Walter's character development and downward spiral has been nothing short of fascinating.
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Se i don't disagree with your specific examples, but i also think he felt genuine emotions, and flooded them with his constant delusions and almost compulsive attitude of having to distort every situation.

And this is where i disagree with some of you, on the fact that he always faked every single emotion or attachment he had for others, i don't think that's true.
I think he had those feelings, but was so twisted and bended in on himself, that he could not react to them like a normal person would.
For example yes, killing Jane was a pragmatic, horrifying decision, but i also think that those tears were real, in that moment, and inside him there was a real conflict going on.
 
Sye d'Burns said:
The trouble is, there wasn't much of an evolution. She went from worried wife to 100% resentful immediately following the (season 2)
fugue state.
Now, of course that resentment was warranted but the trouble was, as Walt grew more wicked, in terms of acting, she couldn't really top what she'd laid down around episode 8 or 9.
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Except that's not what happened. Prior to the show, as we can see, there was already some distance in the relationship - it's what Skyler's half-hearted jerking off of Walt in bed was all about. So the show didn't start with their relationship on perfect times, they were a bored couple.

Second, it didn't just go HAPPY to rargh fugue state. It went from happy to Walt is acting very funny (cancer) to Walt is obviously lying to me about something but I can't figure out why to Walt buys weed from his old high school student to Walt is staying out late and not telling me why to Walt is in a fugue state now and that makes no goddamn sense to holy shit you fucking cook meth

Remember also at first she thought he was merely cheating on her. Which would make any wife angry, and would be an accurate belief when your spouse disappears night after night and doesn't tell you why or where.
 
Amir0x said:
Except that's not what happened. Prior to the show, as we can see, there was already some distance in the relationship - it's what Skyler's half-hearted jerking off of Walt in bed was all about. So the show didn't start with their relationship on perfect times, they were a bored couple.

Second, it didn't just go HAPPY to rargh fugue state. It went from happy to Walt is acting very funny (cancer) to Walt is obviously lying to me about something but I can't figure out why to Walt buys weed from his old high school student to Walt is staying out late and not telling me why to Walt is in a fugue state now and that makes no goddamn sense to holy shit you fucking cook meth
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To "I am the danger", let's not forget.
 
Amir0x said:
Except that's not what happened. Prior to the show, as we can see, there was already some distance in the relationship - it's what Skyler's half-hearted jerking off of Walt in bed was all about. So the show didn't start with their relationship on perfect times, they were a bored couple.

Second, it didn't just go HAPPY to rargh fugue state. It went from happy to Walt is acting very funny to Walt is obviously lying to me about something but I can't figure out why to Walt buys weed from his old high school student to Walt is staying out late and not telling me why to Walt is in a fugue state now and that makes no goddamn sense to holy shit you fucking cook meth
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No, no... I agree with you. I'm just saying, in terms of acting, she hasn't convinced me that things have gotten any worse. It's not so much a problem with the character as much as it is the limits of the actor.
 
Amir0x said:
He is a sociopath and the writers know it.
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Creators can be wrong about their characters and you're entitled to your opinion but Vince disagrees.

Do you think Walter is a sociopath? Has he always been a sociopath? Or did he switch into a sociopath?

GILLIGAN: There’s the old saying about Hollywood – success in Hollywood doesn’t turn you into a bad guy, more to the point it magnifies those flaws already within you.  I’m paraphrasing it, but that’s ostensibly the idea.  One thing I love about this show is  that everybody has their own take on it.  I don’t think that my take is any more valid than anybody else’s.  Because I’m so close to it, I can’t see the forest from the trees.  But in my opinion, Walt always had those weaknesses and foibles within him, he was just too scared to let them out.  I think the cancer diagnosis freed him and liberated him from a great deal of fear – which you would think would be a good thing.  To live a life of fearful constraint seems like a terrible thing and for the most part it probably is.  But he’s gotten a little too free these last few seasons.  And the darker side that has always been within him is just rearing to get out.  

Whether he’s a sociopath – a sociopath, as I understand it, is someone who doesn’t have any care at all about the feelings of others – so I don’t know in that strict clinical sense that Walter White is a sociopath.  I think he is capable of feeling guilt for the things he does.  I think he felt bad about how Jane died for instance.  I just think he’s headed on a darker and darker path, where feelings of guilt, feelings of morality disappear into the distance and the feeling of power overwhelms all. Sociopath – may be too strong a word; but he’s definitely a bad dude…  At the beginning of Season Five, my writers and I sat around for a great many hours thinking how do we come up with a character scarier and more formidable than Gus Fring?  How do we do that and then how do we portray that?  Who’s going to do a better job than Giancarlo Esposito?  And then we thought to ourselves we’ve already got a character that’s badder than Gus Fring – he’s  our star.
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http://collider.com/breaking-bad-movie-vince-gilligan-interview/
 
Amir0x said:
ah you know it's the latest Breaking Bad topic when Pez posts his latest insane theory about how a main character most be rooted for simply because he is the main character and how Vince Gilligan the showrunner is wrong about everything he has written because Pez doesn't like to hear the truth

You have been watching the show wrong. Deal.with.it. Just something you gotta deal with
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Keep in mind, the entire market for Scarface merchandise is driven by people who think the main character is a role model. Don't think the filmmakers intended that, either.

And you know.. Some viewers are gangsters themselves, or use entertainment to live out a gangster fantasy. For them, cheering for Walt (or scarface) is "watching it right". Who ever said that all viewers are strong moralists? Or even if they are, who said they have to watch their entertainment with the interest of aligning with their morality?
 
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