But as you can see, it wasn't a in-depth attack piece on the film. Irreversible is a masterpiece imo.
And my point generally is Gasper Noe wasn't going to cut anything because people didn't like it.
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
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But as you can see, it wasn't a in-depth attack piece on the film. Irreversible is a masterpiece imo.
And my point generally is Gasper Noe wasn't going to cut anything because people didn't like it.
The movie in the sequel is a parellel plot alongside the "fans". The movie plot is basically centered around the filming of a exploitation flick based around the happenings of the first game. Jacket; which is the unofficial name of the nameless protagonist in the first game has become some sort of legend or a myth if you will. And thus his actions have become more and more extreme retroactively through this myth. This film is some sort of perverse recreation of what the director thinks happened or maybe he just wanted to make it more extreme to satisfy his sick mind.
This leads us to the "fans" which are the four masked people at the party after the rape scene in the video at the end of the paragraph. As the name implies they want to recreate the actions of 'Jacket' in the first game through senseless violence against innocents. Look at the end of this video to see what I mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beUrlDwf56w
They are kinda missing the point though and seems mostly bored and disenfranchised (not to mention sadistic and psychopathic) individuals. The fans also represent some fans of the first game that wanted the game to be exactly the same as the sequel according to the developers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh3DV-2LaAg
CaptainGyro
Banned
Oh bullshit. You guy are making it out to seem like he's saying rape is more of a harmless sexual thing than an act of violence. He knows it's an act of violence, he's commenting on how the violence is sexual violence.
freenudemacusers
Member
neither is the article in the OP... And I'm not sure why I am expected to dig up online forum/audience responses from a movie that is 10 years old. You said "Point me to a outcry of this magnitude for the film Irreversible", when in reality the outcry over irreversible trumps this by several magnitudes. Again, people walked out of the movie premiere. Ebert talked about it. The news covered it.
I doubt CNN will cover the audience reaction to Hotline Miami 2
Why should people limit their intepretations of a game to a superficial level? That's part of what keeps the medium stunted.
It's rather ironic that you're talking about "putting your voice into the game". Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't there.
This I agree with 100%, the discourse about this stuff is handled 100% better in other mediums.
jim-jam bongs
Member
What? You're all over the place here for reasons which I've now explained twice.
XANDER CAGE
Member
People walked out of its showing at Cannes and the film received mixed reviews.
certainly, that's why I say its still important to discuss it, I just mean discussing from a standpoint of what the developers meant by it is maybe the wrong way to go
CaptainGyro
Banned
Well I guess you explained it pretty poorly then, and I don't agree with you
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Once again, thank you. That scene at the end of the demo was fucking horrible.
DryvBy
Member
I can't take anyone serious that finds this game all of the sudden offensive. Seriously? You commit the most horrible of all crimes (which is taking a life) just because you receive a phone call. But an implied rape scene gets some of you up in arms?
I'm glad this is an indie game. The developer can now hold up the middle finger to everyone.
I'm glad this is an indie game. The developer can now hold up the middle finger to everyone.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I think the intent is important to discuss, but it's certainly not paramount.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Some defended the film, including Roger Ebert (the same guy that tough that Blue Velvet was to much).
And yet, the discourse at the end of the day did not lead to cut content, did not hurt the film critically as it's aged. And has become one of the best tour de force types of it's kind. Compare that discourse to game criticism, and cut content as soon as it reaches CNN.
I honestly think they just went "okay how can we shock and gross out people the most, and paint a fucked up world picture"
wich, to me, can be a valid reason depending on context
freenudemacusers
Member
And some are defending, or discussing, this game.
Is this true across the board? GTA (the first one) caught a lot of flak for, well, everything, but it still remained as-in. I can't think of many games offhand that have cut content as a result of critical push-back. Maybe I'm wrong? The only one that comes to mind is MK back in the day, and that was a specific platform.
Cymbal Head
Banned
For every avant-garde auteur making movies as pure individual expression without regard for the audience, there's at least one hack intentionally shooting for the lowest common denominator.
Yeah, this. Like I said--and I don't mean to be dismissive when I say this--we're on a gaming forum right now. Obviously we're going to be having an in-depth discussion of controversial game content here. Just because we don't have 10-page threads about Irreversible on GAF doesn't mean that it's not held up to scrutiny.
Jacksonlee
Member
that's the last thing that comes to my mind when i think of rape : men being raped in prision. although i hear and "know" that it happens, people don't make a big deal out of that as rape that happens elsewhere (in the real world)
the rape that happens elsewhere is, by majority, of women, and naturally they make a bigger deal out of rape than men. rape happening to male criminals would take a back seat. (women dont get raped in prision, do they? since they would be in all women prision?)
i really wish that the topic of rape is more discussed. As a male, i am unaware of the feeling and emotion that most women would have of this *taboo* topic, and seeing it in media would solidify my understanding of it or at least make me more aware of the horrors and emotions felt by the characters, regardless of it being portrayed "badly" or done "right" . satire, comic and irony can all do some parts of displaying the act of rape, and in this case, i like what Hotline Miami did.
the excellent post about the going beyond videogames to film to have us self-reflect was great! didn't even think that through.
The one article about this HLM2 "controversy" isn't even asking for the content to be cut. You're getting pissy about nothing.
MK isn't portraying, or attempting to portray, something that happens in real life. Playing MK isn't likely to trigger someone into contemplating past or potential abuse.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Just pointing out that the issues raised by this scene are hardly black and white or 'juvenile for a juvenile medium' .
jim-jam bongs
Member
Okay.
The original post made a comment suggesting that this outrage existed because Americans have a backwards sense of morality which is utterly permissive towards violence but rejects all "sexual content". However, while I agree that Americans can be quite odd in that respect, the outrage in this case can't be explained by that because rape is an act of violence and doesn't constitute "sexual content". The same reaction could be expected from a person of nearly any culture, not just an American.
Nobody is trying to suggest that the poster was saying that rape is harmless, simply that American morality is not the issue here. If you still don't understand then I guess we'll just have to leave it at that, because I'm not going to spend my whole afternoon arguing with a fucking dolphin.
while that may be true, i'd say Visitor Q would better compared to an eroge VN that pushes the taste boundaries (like Saya no Uta) than a Western indie action game.
man, if you really want to talk about bad content in films having negative recourse, look at Pier Paolo Pasolini.
Dark Ninja
Member
wow I didn't even know there was gameplay video of it yet. It looks great can't wait to play. PLEASE HAVE A WINDOWED MODE THIS TIME!
freenudemacusers
Member
And please not load so weirdly on OS X. my one gripe with the game.
DryvBy
Member
People never get murdered and tortured...
XANDER CAGE
Member
I... wasn't trying to suggest otherwise? Irreversible is a pretty good movie, in my opinion. I have more issues with its portrayal of homosexuality than I do with its subject matter.
If you read my initial megapost about this Hotline Miami situation I'd hope it comes across as a little more nuanced than PRO SKUB or ANTI SKUB. Some people are just trying to act like rape in films hasn't even received this level of scrutiny, which simply isn't true.
jim-jam bongs
Member
That's certainly a distinct possibility. I mean, even the "real" ending of the game is so ridiculous that it's hard to think of the guys at Dennaton as being some grand auteurs in the world of Vidya Gaems, but I wouldn't discount the idea that there is some degree of self-aware meta-commentary present there.
What does this imply? You think Takashi Miike is a hack? lol
Marquis De Sade was a pure nutcase though, but his book remains probably the most disturbing thing you could ever read.
But the point was, both, don't give two fucks about what the "audience" thinks. Ichi the Killer has a intense rape scene as well.
Sorry, I'm sort of in the know about all the worst of the worst books and films. Shall we bring in shockumentaries?
One of my fav's of all time, Salo was also a masterpiece. Unfortunately he got killed over it.
Are you taking the piss? You honestly believe that people get murdered and tortured in a manner similar to that portrayed in MK?
You think someone is going to play MK and think 'that has happened, or could happen, to me'? Get a grip.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Are you saying that underground fighting rings between immortal combatants organised by sadistic demigods don't exist?
freenudemacusers
Member
There are a lot of hentai (and not hentai) rape games out there. Not much is written about them in the mainstream.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Yep, that was more cringe worthy.
Sorry, I didn't intend to sound antagonizing. But is worth pointing that many of that controversies are forgotten or looked in another way as time passes. Of course, some works that were 'innocent' in their time gets retroactive controversies and some controversies gets reactivated.
njean777
Member
I was gonna say, I am sure people have had their heads chopped of with swords and disemboweled with them also.
people have gotten shot, and blown up with grenades. Also swords can still be used to behead people and slice them open. It is not so far fetched to believe that some of the fatalities on MK can be done in real life.
I haven't read through the whole thread, so I'm not coimpletely aware of what you're responding too or how other GAFers are responding to this, but I agree with you. After reading the article and watching the video (and playing the previous game), I think it would be a disservice to Hotline Miami 2, the writers, and video games in general to write this off as "juvenlile" before the game is released and people see the entire thing. To me, it seems like there could be a lot more to this than this one scene. Cara is right to be offended/hurt, but I'm interested to see how (if at all) these darker, adult themes play out throughout the game. It could very well be that the game does a terrible job of handling it in the end and I could feel just as angry about it.
CaptainGyro
Banned
Ok, The post I was responding to wasn't even addressing the issue of American morality in jett's post and it's not what I was discussing, so you're just bringing up irrelevant replies
sprucebringsteen
Banned
there's always going to be those people who criticize a certain aspect and take it out of context. it's best to ignore, let them feel morally superior, and move on.
If you're serious, see above.
i'm sure these people have lived through the trauma of decapitation so they feel that their safety-zone of video games are being threatened by violent sequences.
"the time kung lao decapitated me with his razor hat... that trauma is more deeply ingrained in my soul than the scar on my neck."
Cymbal Head
Banned
Of course not. I haven't seen any of his films, but from what I've read about his work, he definitely fits the category of avant-garde auteur.
I'm disagreeing with your earlier assertion that movie directors generally don't worry about their audiences. I think you're picking extreme examples.
njean777
Member
So you are trying to say that this doesn't happen? If you are, you need to think really hard about that.
i'm sure these people have lived through the trauma of decapitation so they feel that their safety-zone of video games are being threatened by violent sequences.
"the time kung lao decapitated me with his razor hat... that trauma is more deeply ingrained in my soul than the scar on my neck."
If I remember correctly Scorpions fatality in MK 9 is that he chops you in half (possible), cuts off your head (also possible), and then chops your head in half (also possible), you guys act like none of the fatalities in MK9 can be reproduced in real life. You are just plain wrong.
faceless007
Member
I don't even know what the argument is about anymore.
Again, no one is calling for censorship or for the scene to be cut. At worst, the writer of the piece is saying that while the developers might have some subversive meta-commentary intent with the scene, the execution falls flat and it just comes across as tasteless and alienating because it used her gender as the means to do it with while the game doesn't use gender for any other purpose. In short, they failed at what they were (presumably) trying to accomplish with it. Is that such an unreasonable criticism to make?
Again, no one is calling for censorship or for the scene to be cut. At worst, the writer of the piece is saying that while the developers might have some subversive meta-commentary intent with the scene, the execution falls flat and it just comes across as tasteless and alienating because it used her gender as the means to do it with while the game doesn't use gender for any other purpose. In short, they failed at what they were (presumably) trying to accomplish with it. Is that such an unreasonable criticism to make?
Spehornoob
Member
No, but why can't we criticize the criticism?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Mortal Kombat is just an old tired joke now. Definitely not a fitting comparison.
That people who play MK are reminded of the trauma of being decapitated, the experience of family members who were decapitated and/or the potential for them to be decapitated? Yeah, I don't think that happens.
Think really hard about the statistics for decapitation by supernatural being and the statistics for rape by a human male.
Moon_frogger
Member
Some thoughts on why murdering hundreds of dudes might be ok but rape is offensive to some people:
1. It's assumed, but not implicitly stated that the people being murdered are 'bad guys' that is to say gangsters or other disreputable types that might deserve what's coming to them. If hotline miami was about murdering a bunch of defenceless kindergardeners it certainly wouldn't have seen the light of day, at least not as a commercial release on steam. For example would you play a game that was primarily a rape simulator? Yet murder is worse than rape right?
2. Rape survivors are constantly subjected to 'rape culture' and I personally feel that If some people see rape in a video game, perhaps out of context of the story as offensive than that is actually pretty legit. There are after all, no murder survivors to be offended by the murder simulation in hotline miami.
3. If you want to compare rape scenes in other Media we can do that. rape scenes in films Aren't always praised as 'powerful' or 'emotional' and plenty of films are considered to be in poor taste because of their rape scenes, to the point of being panned by critics and banned in many countries. There's really not as much of a double standard here as some of you are making it out to be. A clockwork orange was almost impossible to see in the uk for nearly 25 years.
4. Newer forms of media aren't held to the same standards as older ones. We've seen this with film, comics and now video games. I personally don't agree with it but video games will get their. The medium is still having growing pains and its just not at the point where the general public can hold it to the same standards as other forms of entertainment.
Having said all that I feel hotline miami handled its violence very well and if there is a rape scene in the next game I actually trust that its there for a good reason and the games makers actually have something interesting to say.
1. It's assumed, but not implicitly stated that the people being murdered are 'bad guys' that is to say gangsters or other disreputable types that might deserve what's coming to them. If hotline miami was about murdering a bunch of defenceless kindergardeners it certainly wouldn't have seen the light of day, at least not as a commercial release on steam. For example would you play a game that was primarily a rape simulator? Yet murder is worse than rape right?
2. Rape survivors are constantly subjected to 'rape culture' and I personally feel that If some people see rape in a video game, perhaps out of context of the story as offensive than that is actually pretty legit. There are after all, no murder survivors to be offended by the murder simulation in hotline miami.
3. If you want to compare rape scenes in other Media we can do that. rape scenes in films Aren't always praised as 'powerful' or 'emotional' and plenty of films are considered to be in poor taste because of their rape scenes, to the point of being panned by critics and banned in many countries. There's really not as much of a double standard here as some of you are making it out to be. A clockwork orange was almost impossible to see in the uk for nearly 25 years.
4. Newer forms of media aren't held to the same standards as older ones. We've seen this with film, comics and now video games. I personally don't agree with it but video games will get their. The medium is still having growing pains and its just not at the point where the general public can hold it to the same standards as other forms of entertainment.
Having said all that I feel hotline miami handled its violence very well and if there is a rape scene in the next game I actually trust that its there for a good reason and the games makers actually have something interesting to say.
I think that the difference really is the fact that gun violence exists mainly in the realm of fantasy for most gamers, where as female gamers are much more faced with the possibility of sexual violence; as the article states, one in five has experience that will be revisited through a scene like this.
As a male it's easy to ignore and just banalize the argument by calling out Mortal Kombat LOL! But that's a gross simplification that tries to dismiss a real issue.
As a male it's easy to ignore and just banalize the argument by calling out Mortal Kombat LOL! But that's a gross simplification that tries to dismiss a real issue.
One can, but equating it to censorship or making disingenuous accusations of "faux outrage" is not an honest argument.
faceless007
Member
You can, but you have to understand it first. Which the majority of the posts here evidently do not, as evidenced by the kneejerk "censorhips" "so rape is worse than murder herpderp" replies.
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