I've just noticed a lot of people for abortion and that heavily support it talk like what is being aborted is no big deal. Weren't we all there once? At that stage of coming into this world? That is a baby human in there that is having it's own thoughts and feelings in the only ways it can at that stage. How people talk like what's being stopped in there can't be considered a person, yet when it's planned it's already named and has a crib waiting to be set up. I'm 100% pro choice and I realize that sometimes pregnancy happens in other ways besides the typical "accident." I just feel total apathy for any type of antiabortion-progressive movement or person when they devalue a human's life for the purpose of promoting pro-choice. All I see are gross ideologies there. Does anybody else feel the same way?
How the fuck can you pretend a baby fetus is not a person EVER?
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Vermillion
Banned
I don't know and as such don't really care. It's probably as much alive as, say, a plant, but we don't know enough about human consciousness at this point to make that judgment. We won't really know.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I feel like I want to say something, but anything I say would be misconstrued and frankly, I'm a man so I'm not gonna touch this topic.
Alcotholic
Banned
It's not a person. It's a fetus.
I'm pro choice to some extent. An abortion beyond the first trimester seems a little wrong to me. But people deserve to make their own decisions about their bodies.
I'm pro choice to some extent. An abortion beyond the first trimester seems a little wrong to me. But people deserve to make their own decisions about their bodies.
Devolution
Member
I don't think whether it's a potential person or not truly matters. You hear all these grand statements about the preciousness of life. Since when is life so precious? I have yet to see this sentiment elsewhere when it comes to leaving breathing out of the womb individuals.
How do you feel about sperm or ova? How do you feel about them the second before they get together, or the second after? A minute, an hour, a day, a month, six months? There is a change from seed to individual animal, but no objective way of determining it. Thus everybody has their own line, and none are objectively superior to any other.
toastyToast
Member
Until they can say "don't kill me", it doesn't count.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
It's a medical procedure not a moral one as should be treated as such. The laws proposed by "pro-life" groups and all are detrimental because it does not reduce abortion rates but increases unsafe abortions and limits access to contraception, birth control pills, social services and many other services of women's health clinics.
None of the supposed ills that pro-lifers spout are even remotely true. So no, it does not cause mental illness, it's not dangerous, it's not eugenics, it's not used by women to be as promiscuous as they want, acceptance does not raise the abortion rate and etc. It's a very safe medical procedure.
The WHO has extensively studied this and it fits with many of the models of the CDC and other public health agencies.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html
Generally, no one is in favor of late term abortions unless in a medical emergency.
None of the supposed ills that pro-lifers spout are even remotely true. So no, it does not cause mental illness, it's not dangerous, it's not eugenics, it's not used by women to be as promiscuous as they want, acceptance does not raise the abortion rate and etc. It's a very safe medical procedure.
The WHO has extensively studied this and it fits with many of the models of the CDC and other public health agencies.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html
Generally, no one is in favor of late term abortions unless in a medical emergency.
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
You aren't 100 percent Pro-Choice if I can't choose to kill my neighbor's annoying baby that is keeping me up at 4:16 in the morning.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Don't do this and don't listen to people who claim men should have no say in this matter.
Devolution
Member
They've had their say for quite some time now.
boiled goose
good with gravy
A fetus changes a lot during development, from a lump of cells to something that looks more like a human.
To me the personhood of a fetus is not even important when considering abortion.
To me the biggest issue is the freedom and independence of what we can do with our bodies. The fetus is entirely dependent on the host until pretty late in development.
Just like I would not force someone to donate a kidney to save another human, I would not force a person to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term to save a fetus.
To me the personhood of a fetus is not even important when considering abortion.
To me the biggest issue is the freedom and independence of what we can do with our bodies. The fetus is entirely dependent on the host until pretty late in development.
Just like I would not force someone to donate a kidney to save another human, I would not force a person to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term to save a fetus.
good god I just had to google how abortions are actually performed.
I don't think I could say this and actually mean it seriously until I was like five.
I can see your point of view
The entire thing is murky and difficult, for the sheer fact that life is created by another life, trying to create laws and rules around what can and cannot be done will always be complicated and never satisfy everyone.
Pro choice vs. Pro life, there is no morally right stance, its why this issue is so popular during election times, whether its local, county or whatever.
The entire thing is murky and difficult, for the sheer fact that life is created by another life, trying to create laws and rules around what can and cannot be done will always be complicated and never satisfy everyone.
Pro choice vs. Pro life, there is no morally right stance, its why this issue is so popular during election times, whether its local, county or whatever.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
Safer than childbirth in the states. Dat healthcare.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Oh, my, oh yes.
I do find it an uncomfortable issue at later stages of development, and don't know if I'd ever consider one myself, but it's not like the vast majority of women are having it anywhere near that late stage anyway. I'd never try to make that decision for someone else, though.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Fetuses 6 months old to babies a year old cant talk either. Just saying
Yep.
Also, the average lifespan of a woman decreases by one year for every pregnancy she carries to term.
boiled goose
good with gravy
We (the government) takes care of unwanted children who are autonomous.
Even if we had the technology to extract a fetus and bring it to term outside of its host im not sure we should. Enough children without homes as it is.
The moral questions we answer are entirely about well-being. Remove the silly 'sacredness' of life and moral decisions become easier.
I would want to know, why should we care about the life of a fetus?
There is a morally right stance.
If morality is about well being and individual rights of humans, I think forcing a human to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is strictly immoral. It is not an easy decision to make, but we always favor the rights of the currently living and sentient and independent over those of 'potential' lives. That is how our society works.
Im sure thats exactly how it works
It is better for society to allow abortion. It is better for society to subsidize abortion for poorer folk. It is better to give women bodily autonomy. I get to choose how the insides of my body are used, why not women?
Beyond these things I don't care. The fetus does not know it's human, knows nothing about humanity, does not have memories of socializing, friends, family, love, experience, etc. The only person with much real tangible interaction with the fetus is the potential mother, and that potential mother chose to get rid of the fetus despite this.
Beyond these things I don't care. The fetus does not know it's human, knows nothing about humanity, does not have memories of socializing, friends, family, love, experience, etc. The only person with much real tangible interaction with the fetus is the potential mother, and that potential mother chose to get rid of the fetus despite this.
NinjaBoiX
Member
I'd like to know this too. It's generally accepted that up until a certain point, a fetus isn't yet a sentient lifeform and is simply a biological organism.
I'm not suggesting that makes abortion OK, but yeah, it's certainly a salient point.
A newborn baby can't live by itself either.
Maninthemirror
Banned
So you are saying it evolved into a human the moment it can? Infants in womb can survive on their own health without mothers placenta at 6 months plus. So ifs ok to terminate the 'parasite' at 5 months?
boiled goose
good with gravy
the government takes care of them. For now.
I would not be completely opposed to other options... if we need to consider them.
We euthanize unwanted dogs and other animals.
Yes it is ok to terminate it. If as a society we decide we want to take care of the fetuses, I guess we can decide to do that. Not sure why we would want to.
To clarify, if the only way I would consider that decision not immoral is if the procedure to extract the fetus is less invasive and has no downsides relative to the procedure to terminate it. Again, not sure why we would want to.
It can and does live without its hosts body. It is body autonomous.
The only person who has the right to say whether or not it's okay is the woman carrying it.
And not sure what you mean by "evolve." Or by putting parasite in quotes.
obin_gam
Member
If the host so chooses.
Princess Carl
Member
What's a baby fetus compared to a regular fetus? Or do you mean human fetus? Cause a human fetus can't survive without it's host until very late in the pregnancy, so it doesn't really make it a individual until this point.
So to answer your question, I don't have to pretend, because it's not a person yet in any sense of the word. Especially if it's a baby fetus, which would be like, the earliest form of a fetus, i.e. a glob of cells.
So to answer your question, I don't have to pretend, because it's not a person yet in any sense of the word. Especially if it's a baby fetus, which would be like, the earliest form of a fetus, i.e. a glob of cells.
I get the host thing, my point is a newborn is not viable. It cannot continue to live or grow on its own. It will die.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Even if it is self aware, it does not have rights over the rights of its host.
Sucks that humans develop by being parasites on another...just the way it is.
You know how many actual living human lives we could save if we harvested some organs from others?
Devolution
Member
And we basically waste eggs every time we have a period while we're not on the pill. Life is so cool.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I don't place a lot of value on "potential" children so I don't know. I am kind of cold
Spring-Loaded
Member
I don't believe you've actually noticed this. Even if you seen people say the act of aborting a fetus isn't a big deal, you haven't seen a majority say that. You're basing this thread on an assumption, one that's influenced by your views on the matter. Just because people don't take the time to voice what they think of abortion (beyond that it should always be an option) doesn't mean they think it to be trivial.
boiled goose
good with gravy
not cold. rational.
Princess Carl
Member
How the fuck can you pretend a sperm lost to masturbation/sex is not a person EVER? How the fuck can you pretend that the eggs in an ovary lost to menstruation is not a person EVER?
Don't you see? We're all monsters and deserve to be in hell because of our murderous tendencies.
It's not part of the mother's body. After the child is birthed, the mother has bodily autonomy.
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