Tulsa school sends girl home over hair.
- Thread starter Angelus Errare
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Racism doesn't need to be willful, to still be considered racist, at all. Period.
Starting a meta discussion on when are racists racists is a bit distracting here since this in this case it's quite black and white what's going on.
Also you don't have to intend to be racist to make a racist impact. Period.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Hindsight is 20/20. My parents sure as hell didn't know what hairstyles were and were not allowed at the schools I attended. It becomes more absurd when the little girl's hairstyle is incredibly common amongst black girls and she completed an entire school year without it being an issue.
It's the same in the states. You can't say "no blacks" in your restaurant just because you're a private business. By providing a public good or service, which includes running a business, you have to abide by the law which protects from discrimination against certain protected classes.
We've already established that the impact is disproportionate, what else do you want to discuss?
I'm not convinced about it being racism either.
You're telling me that because they ban afros (they most likely mean large afros, but whatever), dreadlocks and mohawks that you believe there was an attempt to discriminate based on a feeling of racial superiority? Intended or not?
What a dumb rule either way.
You're telling me that because they ban afros (they most likely mean large afros, but whatever), dreadlocks and mohawks that you believe there was an attempt to discriminate based on a feeling of racial superiority? Intended or not?
What a dumb rule either way.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I think uniforms are not always bad.
There is less chance for bullying and stuff like that if you don't care what you wear to school. Especially regarding brands, style etc.
Hair is a tricky one, as this case illustrates.
Yes. It demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge of the ethnic group it is effecting and potentially fosters self hatred by telling them the way they naturally are is not appropriate.
No worries bud. =)
I've met maybe 5 or 6 people in my life with dreads and half of them weren't black. It's not a popular hairstyle in my experience...for anyone.
Same goes for disproportionate afros.
So I guess what I'm saying is as far as I can tell, those aren't the only two styles, or even popular styles at that - for them to wear. So the outrage seems a little overblown to me.
Two things
1) stop saying dreads. They're called locs
2)what is your argument? Are you saying this isn't racist because you haven't seen enough people wearing dreads and Afros? Talk about anecdotal evidence. Even then locs and Afros are 100% totally natural for a black person to have and they have had them for centuries. This isn't some new fad this is natural flipping hair, sis.
I just want you to know I'm shaking my head vigorously right now. :/
Both terms are acceptable and in common use, chill out.
Because I want to discuss this? I haven't been belligerent or unreasonable and I'm merely expressing my views on the matter. Anyone is welcome to set me straight because I gladly admit I could be wrong, but from my standpoint right now you're all acting like 95% of all options for haircuts for black people have been banned and that it's racist no matter what.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Locs are super common amongst little girls.
Devolution
Member
A lot of black people don't go natural because of shit like this. Maybe think harder about why you haven't seen them with those styles.
Another example of a different opinion on the meaning of racism enters the ring!
This one includes some kind of 'test' about racial superiority. How fascinating!
Infinite, don't you see you're arguing a losing battle? There are more like Arment, more who simply share a different definition of a word, and thus convincing them with your argument and their definition is only inviting disagreement.
There are few who disagree that the policy "demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge of the ethnic group it is effecting and potentially fosters self hatred by telling them the way they naturally are is not appropriate." But everyone keeps getting caught up on racism.
Here's my problem with that. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people read each these off-topic threads. Every one of them is an opportunity to actually talk about something meaningful, yet inevitably, because of a lack of agreement on basic terminology, they devolve into infighting. Every one of these threads could be an acknowledgement about how the policy is bad (we got that far), what kind of environment and history allows these things to take place, and how to look out for things that may be products of institutionalized racism, and then people's minds would be expanded, and they could take that knowledge out with them and make the world better.
Rather, we get tripped up on a few idiots who miss the point entirely, and the rest of us quibble about definitions.
I offered insight as to a possible reason that happens, in order to have us realize it, and maybe even change it, and I get yelled at for having a meta discussion? I'm going to bed.
Soodanim
Member
Came to post the same thing, but about myself and I didn't get suspended.
Although with my story, a friend of mine went to London one weekend and had his sister do his hair, I had mine cut the same weekend by chance, but when we walked in assembly together on the Monday the head of year assumed we had both decided to do it a as some sort of rebellious thing and put us both in isolation for the day. I consistently got good grades at school, and by that point I had stopped getting in trouble. But I had to spend a day doing fuck all in a room on my own because my hair was shorter than a 2.
My cousin hates his ginger hair, and from an early age shaved his head. He went through the same schools as I did, and got in trouble as well. I think they eventually left him alone, though.
But after my incident, my mum wrote to someone about how stupid the rule was, and that banning short hair while allowing any colour and style outside of it made no sense. They dropped the rule after that.
Oh, and the reason for the rule in the first place? The skin head look scares old people who live near the school.
Umm I'm perfectly chill and calling that hairstyle "dreads" is still factually incorrect regardless of what you think of my current disposition. Saying dreads to someone and they may say "my hair isn't dreadful" in return. You also admitted you don't know many folks with dreads so I'm not sure who you're trying to educate here, boo.
Do you know how many haircuts there are for black people that dont completely ruin their hair? Seriously do you?
I'm black and i wish I could grow out my hair but sadly I can't while my coworkers can do whatever the fuck they want with their hair. Its pretty bullshit from my point of view.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Sit back and think for a moment of the possible reasons why that might be the case.
He posts on neogaf instead of going outside?
You don't know what you are talking about and are wrong.
One doesn't need to have met a Roman to know something about Rome.
And I certainly don't need to have met many people with dreadlocks to know that the term 'dreads' is used by pretty much most people who do refer to them. It was common the 70s and it's common still. It's not an insult and this is most definitely hyberbole but zero people ever were thinking dreadful when they said dreads.
You're using you're subjective observations of who wears what hairstyle and from that you posit that the outrage over this incident is overblown?
And locs are actually very common, my Mom would hand braid my sisters hair.
I spent the majority of my highschool career with a fro.
This is me in uni a few years back.
This is how my hair naturally grows out. This is my hair type. It would be considered unprofessional and unruly by the school board this little girl goes to.
I mean shit....
Chuckie
Member
Was that that documentary with Chris Rock? I liked that.
The girl crying was fucked up
Fuck that school, their loss they lost a great student.That hairstyle there would be unacceptable? Doesn't seem to contradict anything in the rules (the no afro, mohawk and dreadlocks rule that is)
Look, I came at this from a skeptical standpoint (as I often do) merely on the basis that I thought the racism angle was uncalled for when we have very little information. Everyone knows the word afro is a loose term. Maybe, except the people who wrote it, which is what I gather most of you are mad at.
Bleh.
The school rules allow a white girl to just let her hair grown long but do not allow a black girl to do the same.
The black girl who wants longer hair at this school would be forced to use chemicals like relaxers that essentially destroy the hair to make it look like white girl's hair to be allowed to go to school.
Banning dreads/locs makes about as much sense as banning ponytails.
Devolution
Member
Very little information? Maybe if you revel in your ignorance about black hair.
Soodanim
Member
I don't know where you are from, but here in the UK they're dreads. And regardless of where you are, I would imagine that anyone with dreadlocks will not take the wild leap from dreads to dreadful. Is dreads commonly used to mean dreadful wherever you are? Is dreadful itself a commonly used word? I can't see anyone who uses the word dreadful shortening it.
I'm genuinely curious.
Everyone is ignorant about something, but I prefer to think I'm just inexperienced and uninformed. Thankfully, I'm learning a lot from this girls misfortune and from many people here. Which is more than many can claim.
Certainly though, a post from you wouldn't be a post without some kind of bite. So bravo.
Indeed, so that is definitely a problem. No doubt the coverage this is getting strengthens their chances of a rule change, hopefully.
Devolution
Member
There is ignorance and there is acting like it's some sort of surprise that the shit black people get about their hair might limit how they present themselves, especially if they want to be hired and especially if they don't want to create waves.
I don't believe I acted surprised. Really I just asked a question to see what the rational for calling this racist was. I received a few real replies and well, the rest is outrage.
Have I changed my opinion? I guess. I recognized from the beginning it was an unfair and dumb rule, I just wanted some deeper understanding of the racist side of it. I can see why it is. But it's most definitely out of ignorance or a lack of understanding rather than a willful oppression.
Devolution
Member
I'm not outraged, I'm annoyed. Annoyed that people can't educate themselves and would rather throw out blind ignorant statements.
Good post.
I don't think its so easy for certain people to come to a concensus opinion on the definition of 'racism', though. For some of us, especially us white people, it comes with a very, very negative connotation. If somebody calls you a racist or something you do racist, it basically means you're like the worst person on earth. Its a term that should be used with a bit more care and not thrown around so freely, to avoid unjustified accusations. It just has too much shock value not to be.
I also think that unwillful racism, the type that's not founded on any feelings of superiority but rather a lack of awareness and experience, is mostly excusable from a moral judgement standpoint. Its not right, but its something that can be remedied using a careful approach, one that doesn't involve shouting RACISTS! at somebody, ya know?
Have I not, in a way, educated myself with the help of GAFers?
Put together better and more concisely than I could manage.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
These are dreads right? This a faddish, disruptive haircut? Really?
Should probably inform yourself on the issues.
The States is pretty disgusting culturally as far as black women's hair is concerned. Natural hair, even if well-kept, is seen as unprofessional or in this case an unacceptable "fad." The alternative is a buzz cut, treatment with dangerous straightening chemicals that should never be used on children, or a weave, which is also completely absurd for a child.
Black women straight up cannot get decent jobs in the States with their natural hair. You might not realize this, but there's a tremendous amount of cultural pressure to effectively abandon an important aspect of their ethnic identity. It's so refreshing in Paris right now seeing black women with natural hair as the norm.
It was an afrotail of sorts, without the hairband, my hair would be considered an afro.
Also I was growing my hair out at the time, my shorter renditions were an Afro by every means. Because I have a specific hair type.
This is the closest approximation I have for my hair when its out(mind you I cut my hair since that picture)
It affects primarily African american hair types. Such that, the natural state of our hair is considered unacceptable. At this point race is knee deep in this issue.
I'm just saying, consider this, the work that has to be put in to manage black hair to a state where it doesn't meet the "loose" criteria for what is unacceptable in this school would be similar to the work needed for someone who has straight hair and sculpting it into a high top afro...
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
As a white guy raised in an extremely homogeneous state and with limited inter-cultural experiences, I'm going to say that, no, it's not excusable to be racist just because you didn't know you were being racist, and I don't really care if your feelings get hurt for being called out on it.
Black hair is something I've actually never thought about. I knew it grew slightly differently, but didn't know it's was a huge issue to maintain.
We wore ties and shit at my school (UK), but I can't remember there being any issues with hair. This school will probably just change the rules and Fox News would have succeeded in making the world a slightly more accepting place.
We wore ties and shit at my school (UK), but I can't remember there being any issues with hair. This school will probably just change the rules and Fox News would have succeeded in making the world a slightly more accepting place.
So you expect everyone should be completely culturally tolerant and understanding from the moment of birth? :/
To me, your attitude is far worse and intolerant than somebody who has absolutely nothing against a race but found themselves doing something that contributes towards systematic discrimination. You are actually making a conscious and informed decision to be intolerant and to be openly hostile towards people instead of approaching the situation more sensibly.
Note that I said it was excusable from a moral judgement standpoint. As in, I don't think its something we should call somebody a 'bad person' for, which is exactly what it typically means when you label somebody a racist. I never said the actions are completely excusable as in we shouldn't do anything about it and just move on.
The ones I feel that really deserve to be labeled as 'bad people' are the ones that directly feel that other races(or nationalities or sex or whatever) are lesser people. People that don't feel this way are generally going to be far more open and suggestible to people trying to enlighten them on the subject. Its not simple and its not something we're born with. I have learned a lot over the years and I still learn more to this day. Its an ongoing process and one that is certainly not helped in any way whatsoever by being hostile about it and shouting 'racist' at people.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
There's a pretty big gulf between "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that was racist. I'll stop doing that." and "Being called a racist makes me feel so bad.
"I'm not at all sympathetic to the latter. It's a very selfish attitude that twists the conversation from what should be curbing racism into what another Gaffer succinctly described as "therapy sessions for racists."
Your actions matter more than your intent.
It's been a long time since I've seen so much wrong in a post!
That's because we discriminate poor people instead....
Also have a nice trip to our homeland!
I suppose I'm of the opinion that being hostile towards people generally isn't the best way to educate somebody on something.There's a pretty big gulf between "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that was racist. I'll stop doing that." and "Being called a racist makes me feel so bad.
I'm not at all sympathetic to the latter. It's a very selfish attitude that twists the conversation from what should be curbing racism into what another Gaffer succinctly described as "therapy sessions for racists."
Your actions matter more than your intent.
Its not a selfish attitude at all. I believe in respecting people and being understanding. You can get your point across with these things without having to be hostile about it. It seems completely unnecessary if a person genuinely doesn't realize what they're doing.
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