Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn |OT2| Use a security token. Seriously.

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earvcunanan said:
I've seen a lot of disdain for tanks lately, so I'd like to ask this before I partake in the tanking role of a Gladiator/Paladin:

What makes a "good tank"? I know they're supposed to take 100% of the aggro, but is there more to it than that?
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The main two problems I have had with tanks as a healer is:

A) They keep hate on one and only one target and

B) If mobs do start to aggro everyone else, they do not even try to get aggro on them.

I understand if DPS are being really stupid and trying to pull everything, or unloading their skills too early, I really do, and that's all the DPSer's bad. But if I see your HP drop and I cast one heal and mobs zoom to me, that can get quite old. Same if i am DPS and I see 2-3 mobs immediately make a beeline for the healer after one Cure while the tank doesn't bother to turn around, cause that usually means i have to turn and pull aggro myself to start kiting.

The rest is more about learning the class/job as you go along, but those are basic tactics in just about every MMO like this. Even the best tanks lose aggro early on until they get the skills to deal with it better, but anyone who wants to be a DPS should stick to that.
 
Kenai said:
The main two problems I have had with tanks as a healer is:

A) They keep hate on one and only one target and

B) If mobs do start to aggro everyone else, they do not even try to get aggro on them.

I understand if DPS are being really stupid and trying to pull everything, or unloading their skills too early, I really do, and that's all the DPSer's bad. But if I see your HP drop and I cast one heal and mobs zoom to me, that can get quite old. Same if i am DPS and I see 2-3 mobs immediately make a beeline for the healer after one Cure while the tank doesn't bother to turn around, cause that usually means i have to turn and pull aggro myself to start kiting.

The rest is more about learning the class/job as you go along, but those are basic tactics in just about every MMO like this. Even the best tanks lose aggro early on until they get the skills to deal with it better, but anyone who wants to be a DPS should stick to that.
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One problem though with when a tank is working on something big and little ones pop, if the tank turns to take the little ones off it drags the big one with him upping the chance of a skill going off on the rest of the group.

Truthfully its a lot more tactically sound for the DPS to break contact with the main to deal with the little ones. Unless its a situation where there are so many small targets that choices would have to be made and communication with the team as how to react in a multiple pop situation. Better planning all of that before hand really. Since impossible to communicate in real time via text while in battle.
 
KuroNeeko said:
Tank tips.
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Sounds like I'm not too terribly far off, for the most part. I'll still learning some of the more subtle nuances of the role, but for the most part I seem to be able to keep mobs off my team mates, 95% of the time, unless they start doing something counter-intuitive. Such as attacking an enemy I've agroed, but isn't being actively engaged currently.

I'll also admit that, I have to work on my communication skills a bit. I'm getting better at that slowly though. Also, now that you've mentioned it, I'm going to try to learn how to mark enemies. I've been relying on subtle motions with my character to give the other players a general idea where I'd start attacking, but that really only works for the first enemy or two. Also, only works if your team mates are fairly observant, thankfully I've been lucky in that regard.
 
They started offering refunds today? Are people still having really bad issues logging in? Me and the people I play with have been fine today, even logging in at peak hours.
 
jiggle said:
speaking of enmity
i was surprised the personal hate meter didn't make it into the game
it was very useful in 1.0
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We do have a hate meter in this game, its right under your class icon and to the left of everyone's HP bar but its pretty easy to miss. I think that's what your talking about., if not then don't mind me haha
 
KuroNeeko said:
Tanks exist to keep damage off of the healers and the damage dealing classes. You keep the monsters focused on you so other classes can kill them. A good tank knows when to use what skill in order to maximum his threat. The better you are at applying your threat to all active monsters, the less restraint your team members will have to show when attacking.

In a perfect world, you'd be capable of keeping the monsters locked on you even when your DPS classes are going at a full 100%.

Unfortunately, Tanks receive a lot of unwarranted blame since some players fail to realize that DPS classes have a responsibility to reduce their output to match their Tank. It's in their best interest even.

To answer your question, I'd say that good tanks need to know their tools and know how much threat each skill applies. Tanks should have good situational awareness so they can maneuver the battle away from possible adds and deal with monsters that latch onto other players. You also need to know the limits of your healer and adjust your pulls to match them - as well as have an idea of what your DPS classes can do so you can tailor threat application to match their damage.

I think the best tanks often serve as leaders, guiding the rest of the party through the dungeon and coordinating attacks before major battles. They usually take the time to make sure people understand how the next battle will play out (though I tend not to do this if I know it's a person's first time in a dungeon) and what their roles are. They'll also communicate clearly what their target is before initiating battle to prevent targeting mistakes.

It's a thankless job, compounded by the fact that some players get caught up in the moment and just go crazy with damage.
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Good recap :)
I have such a love for good tanks and feel really bad for the ones trying hard while the dps gives them a hard time. I generally feel that dps players are more duchebaggy than tanks and healers (sorry guys, that is not meant as a personal attack).

Ie: last night I tried sunken temple for the first time (I was horrified to use DF for it because I know it has quite a few mechanics).

I always mention if it's my first time in a dungeon so I went in and said: "Hiya guys, first time here just a heads-up". Then the tank goes "Same here".

Both dps almost instantly said:
"Oh great, we are totally screwed".
Even though I tend to read up on a dungeon's mechanic (mostly because I don't like screwing up and try to be prepapred) I asked him if he could tell us what to look out for and he goes:
"Can't be bothered to type it out".

So I let it go and we proceed. Despite the tank and me being new we both knew about the bees and the tank did a great job interrupting them while I had time to stoneskin (which even saved his ass when he was too late on one interrupt).

We both didn't know/remember the platform/doom combo of the first boss so we died on the first attempt. Even though I instinctively went to the glowing platforms it changed right when the timer expired and of course we wiped.

Second attempt the tank didn't manage to interrupt the bee add during the third add phase and we wiped again.

DPS both just left the party.
Nevermind that the ranger and the caster did not manage to kill the bees fast and the tank had to interrupt them quite a few times...

Oh joy -.-
 
WolvenOne said:
Sounds like I'm not too terribly far off, for the most part. I'll still learning some of the more subtle nuances of the role, but for the most part I seem to be able to keep mobs off my team mates, 95% of the time, unless they start doing something counter-intuitive. Such as attacking an enemy I've agroed, but isn't being actively engaged currently.

I'll also admit that, I have to work on my communication skills a bit. I'm getting better at that slowly though. Also, now that you've mentioned it, I'm going to try to learn how to mark enemies. I've been relying on subtle motions with my character to give the other players a general idea where I'd start attacking, but that really only works for the first enemy or two. Also, only works if your team mates are fairly observant, thankfully I've been lucky in that regard.
Click to expand...

I haven't tried tanking in this game, so I don't know what skills you have at your disposal for marking enemies. I imagine you can make a macro though that sends a tell to your party about your current target.

I'm much more of a healer / control player. I like standing in the back and healing or dealing with unexpected adds. I loved Druid in WoW because you could do damage, but you could also switch to bear and pull an aggroed unit off a healer or even switch to healer and help out there.

A good tank is great and all, but you can't do it on your own. Lazy DPSers will spell the death of your party and I found it just to be more stress than it was worth when I got blamed for it. Same with healing (though I like it a bit more.) Still, it IS fun though knowing that you're the only thing standing between your party and a huge, ass slobbering monster waiting to rip everything to shreds.

I'll probably give it a try if Arcanist / Thaumaturge doesn't work out for me.
 
Had a nightmarish Satasha as a Gladiator.
I died on the first pull, which was all on me, as I though the healer was there while he/she clearly was not and started playing just as I died.
Then I died a second time right after the Coeurl boss, because I thought the healer was there with us when he/she ran back for no reason whatsoever, and came back just as I died.
Third death came right after the first encounter with the Pirate boss. I pulled the first pack, I got no heals.
Fourth death came only minutes after, when I pulled the 2 pirates guarding the door that leads to the next area. Once again, no heals.
Maybe I'm too used to playing a healer and staying with the group. Maybe I should ask if everyone is ready before every pulls.
I almost kicked the bucket on the last boss too, since I got all the adds on me and they weren't being killed. The group didn't even use the Limit on the boss.
Maybe they simply didn't like me from the start, since I was the only one that died through the whole run.
 
since we're on the subject of tanks. is there a listing of how much enmity each skill generates? all the descriptions say is "Increased Enmity". Does that mean all the skills have the same hate generation?
 
KuroNeeko said:
I haven't tried tanking in this game, so I don't know what skills you have at your disposal for marking enemies. I imagine you can make a macro though that sends a tell to your party about your current target.

I'm much more of a healer / control player. I like standing in the back and healing or dealing with unexpected adds. I loved Druid in WoW because you could do damage, but you could also switch to bear and pull an aggroed unit off a healer or even switch to healer and help out there.

A good tank is great and all, but you can't do it on your own. Lazy DPSers will spell the death of your party and I found it just to be more stress than it was worth when I got blamed for it. Same with healing (though I like it a bit more.) Still, it IS fun though knowing that you're the only thing standing between your party and a huge, ass slobbering monster waiting to rip everything to shreds.

I'll probably give it a try if Arcanist / Thaumaturge doesn't work out for me.
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There's a tool in the game for planting visual markers on the enemies, 1, 2, 3, and a couple other symbols. I've seen a couple other tanks using them, but I haven't as of yet. I'll probably make learning how to use it, a bit of a project for tomorrow.
 
Tash said:
DPS both just left the party.
Nevermind that the ranger and the caster did not manage to kill the bees fast and the tank had to interrupt them quite a few times...

Oh joy -.-
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If a DPS wasnt able to kill a bee before it does the final sting move then they're doing it wrong. Bees are easily soloable.

Yesterday I completed Qarn too, two of the party members were new. They did a fantastic job.
 
WolvenOne said:
There's a tool in the game for planting visual markers on the enemies, 1, 2, 3, and a couple other symbols. I've seen a couple other tanks using them, but I haven't as of yet. I'll probably make learning how to use it, a bit of a project for tomorrow.
Click to expand...

bottom right click signs

drag to hotbar

i keep mine keyed despite being a healer, though i prefer tanks to mark primary target
 
earvcunanan said:
I stopped playing MH3U since June, but I'm thinking of importing MH4... that might be trouble, though. It's best I wait for a localization.
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You have a JP 3DS? Since if not game wont run.

KuroNeeko said:
I haven't tried tanking in this game, so I don't know what skills you have at your disposal for marking enemies. I imagine you can make a macro though that sends a tell to your party about your current target.

I'm much more of a healer / control player. I like standing in the back and healing or dealing with unexpected adds. I loved Druid in WoW because you could do damage, but you could also switch to bear and pull an aggroed unit off a healer or even switch to healer and help out there.

A good tank is great and all, but you can't do it on your own. Lazy DPSers will spell the death of your party and I found it just to be more stress than it was worth when I got blamed for it. Same with healing (though I like it a bit more.) Still, it IS fun though knowing that you're the only thing standing between your party and a huge, ass slobbering monster waiting to rip everything to shreds.

I'll probably give it a try if Arcanist / Thaumaturge doesn't work out for me.
Click to expand...

The markers are useful and pretty easy to use. You just need a party who waits while you go through the trouble of marking everything first though.

For the most part when I party with JP players they see me marking and everyone waits till I act.
 
You can add markings as macros too - I use it on my sleep macro to make sure the party knows which add I am going to sleep:

/micon Repose
/mk ignore1 <t> (<- this marks the target with the ignore 1 icon)
/ca Repose <t>
/p Slept <t>. You tag it you keep it.

Other marking macros:

attack1&#8211;5
bind1&#8211;3
ignore1&#8211;2
circle
cross
square
triangle
 
maxcer0081 said:
yes it has little tabs that change color and shape depending on hate. it goes from green, yellow, orange, red.
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If you have an enemy targeted, there are also meters under everyone's class icon that tell you how much threat each person has for that enemy and the order from highest threat to least (A, 2, 3, 4).

I think that's what SmarterUnconscious is talking about.
 
Parakeetman said:
The markers are useful and pretty easy to use. You just need a party who waits while you go through the trouble of marking everything first though.

For the most part when I party with JP players they see me marking and everyone waits till I act.
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I can't speak for FFXIV yet, but in general I find dungeons more enjoyable with Japanese gamers. They tend to be a bit more civil and forgiving than western gamers. Just last night, a guy in Gridania said "Any English speakers here? Where are the anoles?" and some other guy said, "In ur mums hole, m8." I don't think I've ever seen a JP player say that.

On the other hand, I've never run across a JP player who was into RPing... Just cultural differences, I guess.
 
maxcer0081 said:
yes it has little tabs that change color and shape depending on hate. it goes from green, yellow, orange, red.
Click to expand...

That's next to each enemy name. jiggle was talking about the meter that appears below the player class icons in the party window. That shows exactly who has the most aggro (full bar) then 2, 3 and 4. When tanking last night, it showed the aggro of the targeted enemy.
 
HiddenAway said:
That's next to each enemy name. jiggle was talking about the meter that appears below the player class icons in the party window. That shows exactly who has the most aggro (full bar) then 2, 3 and 4. When tanking last night, it showed the aggro of the targeted enemy.
Click to expand...

To mention it again - you only see them if you target a specific mob. If you are a healer healing through the tank you won't see them
 
KuroNeeko said:
I can't speak for FFXIV yet, but in general I find dungeons more enjoyable with Japanese gamers. They tend to be a bit more civil and forgiving than western gamers. Just last night, a guy in Gridania said "Any English speakers here? Where are the anoles?" and some other guy said, "In ur mums hole, m8." I don't think I've ever seen a JP player say that.

On the other hand, I've never run across a JP player who was into RPing... Just cultural differences, I guess.
Click to expand...

Generally the player to idiot ratio is a lot lower than with western gamers for some reason. Most of them seem to be about enjoying the game more than trying to play some sort of internet dick comparison game. Generally the majority seem to know how to work as a team. Even when there is 0 vocal communication going on. Granted its not all perfect, Id still take partying with my mute JP counterparts over anything else.

mere_immortal said:
Marking is pretty fast if you move your most common marks to a hotbar, easily to quickly cycle through and mark stuff up then.
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Am waiting for a restock of the razer orbweaver since am planning to order one then will totally redo my hotbars for that. For the time being am just making do.
 
Tash said:
You can add markings as macros too - I use it on my sleep macro to make sure the party knows which add I am going to sleep:

/micon Repose
/mk ignore1 <t> (<- this marks the target with the ignore 1 icon)
/ca Repose <t>
/p Slept <t>. You tag it you keep it.

Other marking macros:

attack1&#8211;5
bind1&#8211;3
ignore1&#8211;2
circle
cross
square
triangle
Click to expand...

Yeah I tried doing that but when you're trying to sleep multiple targets, it would be easier to just mark 1-5 and sleep all but 1 and avoid constant signs being overidden.

Or even lazier just have the tank mark the focus target and sleep everything unmarked. Hopefully your team gets it without needing a big IGNORE sign right above enmeies to know to not hit them.
 
OceanBlue said:
If you have an enemy targeted, there are also meters under everyone's class icon that tell you how much threat each person has for that enemy and the order from highest threat to least (A, 2, 3, 4).

I think that's what SmarterUnconscious is talking about.
Click to expand...

HiddenAway said:
That's next to each enemy name. jiggle was talking about the meter that appears below the player class icons in the party window. That shows exactly who has the most aggro (full bar) then 2, 3 and 4. When tanking last night, it showed the aggro of the targeted enemy.
Click to expand...

ahh I didn't even notice that yet. maybe I should move the party list so it's easier to see during battles.
 
Are the basic DOs/DONTs for each class/role in a party explained somewhere IN GAME? I remember some of the first 2-3 battle levemete (hope I got the names right) from the beta did some explaining. Is that enough? Does it explain more in further battles?
 
Ken said:
Yeah I tried doing that but when you're trying to sleep multiple targets, it would be easier to just mark 1-5 and sleep all but 1 and avoid constant signs being overidden.

Or even lazier just have the tank mark the focus target and sleep everything unmarked.
Click to expand...

Its always appreciated when a caster notifies the team that they are going to sleep something. Since it stops me from using overpower to keep tagging everything every now and then, which causes sleep to break off if suddenly the caster uses it on a stray target.

Varth said:
Are the basic DOs/DONTs for each class/role in a party explained somewhere IN GAME? I remember some of the first 2-3 battle levemete (hope I got the names right) from the beta did some explaining. Is that enough? Does it explain more in further battles?
Click to expand...

Not really. Its why people are having misconceptions of their classes, mainly the DD guys thinking everything works the same as X title they played before. This game while it appears simple, its actually a bit more complex in terms of having to know ones class as to not break the balance of the party.
 
Parakeetman said:
Its always appreciated when a caster notifies the team that they are going to sleep something. Since it stops me from using overpower to keep tagging everything every now and then, which causes sleep to break off if suddenly the caster uses it on a stray target.
Click to expand...

I left my macro to say that I'm sleeping <t> but got rid of the marker.
 
Having recently "rerolled" Marauder after playing a Pug/Monk for a while, I actually enjoy tanking in this game a lot and have more respect towards people that play a tank and manage to do a good job.

It's not easy in this game - you don't even have a taunt button, which is a staple of any tanking class in modern mmos, and generating hate with multiple enemies is not easy since (so far) only your single target skills generate increased enmity.

That said, I find it challenging and fun and it's not a faceroll like in current modern mmos where it's basically impossible for any dps to grab aggro from the tank, unless the tank is asleep.
 
desverger said:
Having recently "rerolled" Marauder after playing a Pug/Monk for a while, I actually enjoy tanking in this game a lot and have more respect towards people that play a tank and manage to do a good job.

It's not easy in this game - you don't even have a taunt button, which is a staple of any tanking class in modern mmos, and generating hate with multiple enemies is not easy since (so far) only your single target skills generate increased enmity.

That said, I find it challenging and fun and it's not a faceroll like in current modern mmos where it's basically impossible for any dps to grab aggro from the tank, unless the tank is asleep.
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Actually there is one "taunt" type of move its called provoke. Its a more situational skill used to peel off a target from one of your allies. As it apparently trades hate with them from what I understand. So its good keeping that one on if you know you are going to be stuck in a group of randoms. Though provoke is a gladiator skill so as a MRD / WAR we need to sacrifice an extra skill slot to add it in.
 
Parakeetman said:
Its always appreciated when a caster notifies the team that they are going to sleep something. Since it stops me from using overpower to keep tagging everything every now and then, which causes sleep to break off if suddenly the caster uses it on a stray target.
Click to expand...

I was doing my first run through Brayflox last night. I marked main target. Healer started sleeping adds while I was overpowering. I asked them to mark their sleep targets. "wut. tank marks"

I guess that's fine? But I'm not exactly amazing at marking yet. Plus it was my first run etc.
 
Parakeetman said:
Not really. Its why people are having misconceptions of their classes, mainly the DD guys thinking everything works the same as X title they played before. This game while it appears simple, its actually a bit more complex in terms of having to know ones class as to not break the balance of the party.
Click to expand...

So I have to read docs and guides to know what to do? Hate that. Takes all the fun out of the game for me :(

Any good, concise guide for Lancer?
 
Parakeetman said:
Actually there is one "taunt" type of move its called provoke. Its a more situational skill used to peel off a target from one of your allies. As it apparently trades hate with them from what I understand. So its good keeping that one on if you know you are going to be stuck in a group of randoms. Though provoke is a gladiator skill so as a MRD / WAR we need to sacrifice an extra skill slot to add it in.
Click to expand...

Ah, didn't know that. Looks like it's 22GLD to get it, and it has a hefty cooldown :)

Thanks for the tip though, definitely getting that later on.
 
Parakeetman said:
Actually there is one "taunt" type of move its called provoke. Its a more situational skill used to peel off a target from one of your allies. As it apparently trades hate with them from what I understand. So its good keeping that one on if you know you are going to be stuck in a group of randoms. Though provoke is a gladiator skill so as a MRD / WAR we need to sacrifice an extra skill slot to add it in.
Click to expand...

Would it be best to level a GLD first before working on MRD?
 
Varth said:
So I have to read docs and guides to know what to do? Hate that. Takes all the fun out of the game for me :(

Any good, concise guide for Lancer?
Click to expand...

I'm a Lancer right now, and I make use of most of my skills. I mainly use Impulse Drive (with Life Surge whenever it's available) for bosses. I always try to position myself behind the enemy for ID since it's quick to execute versus the True Thrust > Vorpal Thrust combo.

Looks like there are more combos to unlock as you level up, but I'm only level 26 right now and just unlocked the third string to TT > VT, which is Full Thrust. The animation looks cool when executed.
 
Varth said:
So I have to read docs and guides to know what to do? Hate that. Takes all the fun out of the game for me :(

Any good, concise guide for Lancer?
Click to expand...

I don't think you need to read any guides. I certainly don't. Just go into each dungeon with an open mind, learn by watching others, and don't be afraid to experiment.

You might get some flack for not plying the optimal way (or even contributing to a wipe in a dungeon), but learning is part of the fun.

The only thing you should really read is the tool tips on your skills. Then you just need to think about how to apply that knowledge effectively in battle.
 
Had my first bad egg with randoms via the Duty Finder. The guy asked if anyone was a first-timer (which was everyone except him) and then he proceeded to tell the party to stop and go watch the upcoming boss fight on YouTube. So we're just standing there while epic music is playing and all that cool stuff. I get that some people want to go into a fight with the right strategy, but c'mon. Totally destroyed the moment.

After several deaths and resets, he started cursing at a lancer for using the limit break and we all decided to bail on him. I swear, some people need better priorities.
 
Dolphin_Butter said:
Had my first bad egg with randoms via the Duty Finder. The guy asked if anyone was a first-timer (which was everyone except him) and then he proceeded to tell the party to stop and go watch the upcoming boss fight on YouTube. So we're just standing there while epic music is playing and all that cool stuff. I get that some people want to go into a fight with the right strategy, but c'mon. Totally destroyed the moment.

After several deaths and resets, he started cursing at a lancer for using the limit break and we all decided to bail on him. I swear, some people need better priorities.
Click to expand...

Forget that. For me, MMORPGs are about the journey and the experience. I'm not going to spoil myself on some event just so we can run the event "right."

The first time is for the experience. You'll have plenty of opportunities to run through the instance again. I find it a lot more enjoyable to go in, get slaughtered, then come back and apply that experience to the next battle.
 
Dolphin_Butter said:
Had my first bad egg with randoms via the Duty Finder. The guy asked if anyone was a first-timer (which was everyone except him) and then he proceeded to tell the party to stop and go watch the upcoming boss fight on YouTube. So we're just standing there while epic music is playing and all that cool stuff. I get that some people want to go into a fight with the right strategy, but c'mon. Totally destroyed the moment.

After several deaths and resets, he started cursing at a lancer for using the limit break and we all decided to bail on him. I swear, some people need better priorities.
Click to expand...

Scratch that noise. I would've dropped his ass from the party if I was the party leader.
 
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