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How much different will X1 and PS4 multiplats be visually?

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wizzbang said:
There will probably not be that much of a huge difference. The Xbox One versions will be playable and at a casual glance look the same.

HOWEVER

As a Sony person who had to put up with 5 fucking years of Xbox whiners bleating about how "utterly unplayable" or "totally terrible" the PS3 versions of games were, I look forward to exaggerating to the N'th degree just how utterly repugnant the Xbox One versions of games are and how they are "simply not an option"
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I imagine that's exactly why they try to downplay the differences, as it's hard for them to be on the underdog's side, after years of being smug about superior multiplatform versions. What goes around, comes around.
 
TheKayle said:
okay then :)

and if are the same...that maybe people ..like penello said..need to look at the entire picture and not just an individual part of the system ..okay?
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We are arguing that the games will not look the same between PS4 and XB1, so I don't believe Penello for now unless he can show me how Xbox one will compensate that 500 Gflops. And no, it's not shape or move engine.

ekim said:
Well... I know about 2 more or less undisclosed (minor) things that actually help performance - so there is some basis for my trust.
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I didn't know that you're an insider, how will those 2 or more things help to close the gap between the 2 consoles?
 
ekim said:
Well... I know about 2 more or less undisclosed (minor) things that actually help performance - so there is some basis for my trust.
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As ElTorro says I don't understand why it wouldn't be disclosed because PS4 is unlikely stop production to try to implement whatever as well, and thereby miss their launch.

Do you think your undisclosed stuff will level the playing field as much that a Face-Off will not reveal a difference, the way Albert Penello insinuates?
 
MMaRsu said:
Penello is just on a damage control tip..some people believe anything
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Albert is effectively an Xbox spokesman. Now that is expected - he is after all a Microsoft employee, and I do like his transparency on the forums.

Nevertheless, to use him as an indicator of how multiplatform games is extremely short sighted.
 
Chobel said:
We are arguing that the games will not look the same between PS4 and XB1, so I don't believe Penello for now unless he can show me how Xbox one will compensate that 500 Gflops. And no, it's not shape or move engine.



I didn't know that you're an insider, how will those 2 or more things help to close the gap between the consoles?
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witcher3 devs already stated that both console version will be different and adapted to the hw we need to know in what...
(i think they was talking about the cloud for the xb1 but we will see)
 
THEaaron said:
But does those GPUs come close to a derivative of a 7850?
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Would a laptop with a GeForce GTX 780M not offer similar levels of performance. But the performance was not the point I was making. I was pointing out Laptops fit more powerful components into a smaller space.

I know gaming laptops can be loud and run hot, but the PS4 case is a lot bigger than a laptop.
 
benny_a said:
As ElTorro says I don't understand why it wouldn't be disclosed because PS4 is unlikely stop production to try to implement whatever as well, and thereby miss their launch.

Do you think your undisclosed stuff will level the playing field as much that a Face-Off will not reveal a difference, the way Albert Penello insinuates?
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I think those will just prove that each system has it's strengths for different stages of rendering. But I'm not a dev. I don't know the costs for the single steps.
 
dead monkey uk said:
Would a laptop with a GeForce GTX 780M not offer similar levels of performance. But the performance was not the point I was making. I was pointing out Laptops fit more powerful components into a smaller space.

I know gaming laptops can be loud and run hot, but the PS4 case is a lot bigger than a laptop.
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What is the TDP of a laptop packing that kind of GPU?
 
ekim said:
I think those will just prove that each system has it's strengths for different stages of rendering. But I'm not a dev. I don't know the costs for the single steps.
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So Xbox one indeed has a secret sauce. We shall wait and see.
 
So despite the PS4 GPU being 40% stronger, having faster RAM, and being far better at GPGPU compute, the two consoles have "balanced" relative performance? Pardon me if I ask for evidence of this.

Nobody doubts MS and Sony have smart programmers, but anything MS can do with its software, Sony can do. The claim that "games will look great on both systems" is subjective and says nothing about the raw numbers. The different won't be "really huge", but it will be noticeable to serious gamers.

Yes Sony overhyped PS2 and PS3 capabilities, but the situation is different now. Given the architectures of PS4 and X1 are so similar, there has never been a more valid time to make a direct hardware comparison.

It seems rather obvious that the MS higher-ups demanded a media/apps set top box first, gaming machine second, and the X1's inferior graphics performance is the result.

BTW, Sony could still slightly OC their CPU/GPU pre or even post-launch if they determined it was safe for launch systems.
 
ekim said:
Well... I know about 2 more or less undisclosed (minor) things that actually help performance - so there is some basis for my trust.
Click to expand...

Mind to categorize your source?
 
Melchiah said:
I imagine that's exactly why they try to downplay the differences, as it's hard for them to be on the underdog's side, after years of being smug about superior multiplatform versions. What goes around, comes around.
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I have to quote my homie Chad Warden - ultimately, it's all about the games.
 
ekim said:
I wouldn't call it secret sauce. It's also possible PS4 has the same things. As I said - I'm sure it helps perfomance but I don't know by which margin.
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So it safe to assume that swizzle things are not move engines.
 
wizzbang said:
I have to quote my homie Chad Warden - ultimately, it's all about the games.
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True, but I find it amusing how things change when the tables are turned. It was all fun and games when the PS3 was the underdog in 2005-2007 when Sony screwed up, but now kicking the dog while it's down is seen as fanboyish/trollish behavior. It seems taking the punches is harder than giving them. ;)
 
ekim said:
documentation. If wanted, I can provide credentials to some mod.
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The owner of those documentation, what did he say about the benefit of those undisclosed things. You said you're not a dev so I'm assuming those documentation are not yours
 
Melchiah said:
True, but I find it amusing how things change when the tables are turned. It was all fun and games when the PS3 was the underdog in 2005-2007 when Sony screwed up, but now kicking the dog while it's down is seen as fanboyish/trollish behavior. It seems taking the punches is harder than giving them. ;)
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You have be careful though because the ps3 was hyped to be way more powerful than the 360 until the games started getting bad reviews ..
 
Chobel said:
The owner of those documentation, what did he say about the benefit of those undisclosed things. You said you're not a dev so I'm assuming those documentation are not yours
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I got them without any comment.
I can just use my limited understanding but it seems like all things disclosed and undisclosed work perfectly in concert at least on paper. So for me, one decision makes more sense after reading about the other decision.
 
pixlexic said:
You have be careful though because the ps3 was hyped to be way more powerful than the 360 until the games started getting bad reviews ..
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To be fair, those speculations were based on the CELL cpu which is really superior. But that didn't help the fact that the GPU is a total mess.

Now we're talking on another level of detail.
 
pixlexic said:
You have be careful though because the ps3 was hyped to be way more powerful than the 360 until the games started getting bad reviews ..
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I'm sure someone will be able to show you the MajorNelson math course in which Microsoft went full retard as well.

I wasn't following video games around then but from everything I've read it was a bad time for bullshit and that wouldn't fly today.
 
pixlexic said:
You have be careful though because the ps3 was hyped to be way more powerful than the 360 until the games started getting bad reviews ..
Click to expand...

This time the hardware on both platforms is so similar, that the power difference should be far more evident early on. Especially as the PS4 won't be as hard to develop games on as the PS3 was, which was the main reason for the early games looking worse than those on the 360.



EDIT:
benny_a said:
I'm sure someone will be able to show you the MajorNelson math course in which Microsoft went full retard as well.

I wasn't following video games around then but from everything I've read it was a bad time for bullshit and that wouldn't fly today.
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Here:
http://majornelson.com/2005/05/20/xbox-360-vs-ps3-part-1-of-4/

A couple of images, that are now missing from the article, which I had luckily saved earlier.

1uYeMI8.jpg


hHPMW59.jpg


Even back then, Microsoft wasn't shy of adding the bandwidth numbers together.
 
PS4 is a safe bet.

It's kind of a win win situation. Either multiplats take advantage of its extra horsepower and you get better looking/playing games in general, or they don't and leave power on the table which will come in handy later in achieving a higher quality experience with emerging technology (e.g. VR modes).
 
ekim said:
I got them without any comment.
I can just use my limited understanding but it seems like all things disclosed and undisclosed work perfectly in concert at least on paper. So for me, one decision makes more sense after reading about the other decision.
Click to expand...

Of course, you won't reveal those undisclosed things. But Is there any chance that MS/someone will reveal those things before launch? Is it possible that we won't know about those things at all?
 
Melchiah said:
This time the hardware on both platforms is so similar, that the power difference should be far more evident early on. Especially as the PS4 won't be as hard to develop games on as the PS3 was, which was the main reason for the early games looking worse than those on the 360.
Click to expand...

the only problem with this is we don't know how the software matches up. I do know Xbox has an advantage because of direct x if only that it is much similar to PC direct x than ps's customized OpenGL Apis, but that does not say how much os bloat either of them have. Xbone seems it could be very bloated at the start with all the media features they have. That would also have an affect on performance.

It's not like pcs where two people with different gpus both have windows.. And both run the same game with the exact same code and Apis.
 
Chobel said:
Of course, you won't reveal those undisclosed things. But Is there any chance that MS/someone will reveal those things before launch? Is it possible that we won't know about those things at all?
Click to expand...

I don't think MS will make a big deal out of those things. One thing, I think, I can out is, that DirectX11 supports multithreaded rendering without the need of writing your own synchronization.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff476891(v=vs.85).aspx

Multithreading is designed to improve performance by performing work using one or more threads at the same time. In the past, this has often been done by generating a single main thread for rendering and one or more threads for doing preparation work such as object creation, loading, processing, and so on. However, with the built in synchronization in Direct3D 11, the goal behind multithreading is to utilize every CPU and GPU cycle without making a processor wait for another processor (particularly not making the GPU wait because it directly impacts frame rate). By doing so, you can generate the most amount of work while maintaining the best frame rate. The concept of a single frame for rendering is no longer as necessary since the API implements synchronization.
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What I'm saying is, expect more DirectX11.2 features to be implemented on HW level in fixed function.
 
pixlexic said:
the only problem with this is we don't know how the software matches up. I do know Xbox has an advantage because of direct x if only that being much similar to PC direct x than ps customized OpenGL Apis, but that does not say how much os bloat either of them have. Xbone seems it could be very bloated at the start with all the media features they have. That would also have an affect on performance.

It's not like pcs were two people with different gpus both have windows.. And both run the same game with the exact same code and Apis.
Click to expand...

To be honest from what we've heard of the API's this time the PS4 API's are much further aead in development and are also very slick with no bloat.
 
pixlexic said:
the only problem with this is we don't know how the software matches up. I do know Xbox has an advantage because of direct x if only that being much similar to PC direct x than ps customized OpenGL Apis, but that does not say how much os bloat either of them have. Xbone seems it could be very bloated at the start with all the media features they have. That would also have an effect on performance.

It's not like pcs were two people with different gpus both have windows.. And both run the same game with the exact same code and Apis.
Click to expand...


Here's what I posted here regarding DX a few pages ago.

Melchiah said:
Actually, The Crew developer said something about both of their SDKs in the Digital Foundry article in July:

Sony has made a big deal about the accessibility of the PS4 hardware, and a key element of that would be the quality of the toolchain - the series of programs used to create compiled code. For the PS4 developers, the use of the established Visual Studio environment proves to be a key benefit, and the extent to which Sony has acknowledged and supported cross-platform game-makers is self-evident. There are even options within Sony's compiler specifically added in order to increase compatibility with the Microsoft counterpart used in compiling DirectX 11 games.

"One thing that definitely helped getting the game to work was that the engine uses quite a lot of middleware. Middleware supporters have been very active on PS4, so there are versions of all the middleware we wanted available," Jenner continues.

"It takes a bit of work and a bit of time to integrate as SDKs change to get new versions of the middleware you're after, so that can feel like a full-time job at times, but as the platform settles down and the SDK changes become less significant getting closer to launch that becomes less of an issue."

...

A more crucial issue is that, while the PS4 toolchain is designed to be familiar to those working on PC, the new Sony hardware doesn't use the DirectX API, so Sony has supplied two of their own.

"The graphics APIs are brand new - they don't have any legacy baggage, so they're quite clean, well thought-out and match the hardware really well," says Reflections' expert programmer Simon O'Connor.

...

In general, from a performance perspective, it seems that Sony's SDK is just about where it needs to be right now, in contrast to the Microsoft equivalent, where techs are still working on very significant improvements that will drive improved GPU throughput.

...

What we didn't find out is how the Xbox One version is faring, or who is producing it. Our bet is on the Ivory Tower studio producing it in tandem with the PC version, owing to the use of the DirectX 11 API on two platforms. But Xbox One and PS4 both have much in common from an architectural standpoint, and questions we have about collaboration between the console teams resulting in optimisations common to both console versions remain unanswered for now.
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Click to expand...
 
plagiarize said:
which multiplatform game has been shown off on both Xbone and PS4 in a way that we could compare them?

I'm not aware of any yet.
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Seems like we should be getting some caparisons soon. pretty sure ubi, activision ,and ea will want their games previewed and hyped.
 
BradleyLove said:
Can you show me these multiplatform screenshots for comparison? A link will do.
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so let me say this

you expect that a 3rd party multiplats devs push more the differences between this two console than a first party dev?

this could be the first time this happen

i was saying ....first party games dont show any difference and most trust than the most big next gen graphics "game"..is ryse...
 
ekim said:
I don't think MS will make a big deal out of those things. One thing, I think, I can out is, that DirectX11 supports multithreaded rendering without the need of writing your own synchronization.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff476891(v=vs.85).aspx



What I'm saying is, expect more DirectX11.2 features to be implemented on HW level in fixed function.
Click to expand...

This isn't actually using multiple thread at the same time btw, the msdn entry is actually misleading, It would be better described as deferred contexts.

Reasonable overview here on stack overflow:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9691558/multi-threaded-rendering-in-opengl

it's similar performance to asynchronous uploads which are described here in openGL.

I hope your second performance boost isn't partially resident textures.

EDIT: some info on how to use Asynchronous uploads here:

http://www.opengl.org/wiki/OpenGL_and_multithreading
 
TheKayle said:
so let me say this

you expect that a 3rd party multiplats devs push more the differences between this two console than a first party dev?...
Click to expand...

I would say that some PS4 exclusives are looking more impressive, but it is easier to quantify differences in a apples to apples comparisons (with multiplats) than between games using different techniques with totally different assets and scenes etc.
 
TheKayle said:
so let me say this

you expect that a 3rd party multiplats devs push more the differences between this two console than a first party dev?

this could be the first time this happen

i was saying ....first party games dont show any difference and most trust than the most big next gen graphics "game"..is ryse...
Click to expand...

Have you been asleep this past gen? There's tonnes of examples where X360 versions were noticeably superior to PS3 versions (framerate, resolution, effects, AA, etc).

"This could be the first time this happen"?

I really, really want some of what you're smoking.
 
TheKayle said:
so let me say this

you expect that a 3rd party multiplats devs push more the differences between this two console than a first party dev?

this could be the first time this happen

i was saying ....first party games dont show any difference and most trust than the most big next gen graphics "game"..is ryse...
Click to expand...

Let's not start comparing exclusive games, all it does is leave us with beautiful killzone shadowfall and Infamous gifs and that gif of ryse with PS2 quality water.
 
I really don't see the difference with all of the games we have seen so far. If the hardware was truly that much more powerful, why wouldn't the launch games bear that out?

Halo blew away Time Splitters and any other PS2 launch game, for example, clearly illustrating the power difference between those two systems. With supposedly an even bigger power gap this time, shouldn't it be readily apparent in the launch games?
 
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