frankie_baby
Member
If it is a requirement then how does that explain darksiders 2? I would wager it is simply incredibly simple to do (with thq simply being too cash strapped to bother implementing)
WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
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If it is a requirement then how does that explain darksiders 2? I would wager it is simply incredibly simple to do (with thq simply being too cash strapped to bother implementing)
Darksiders 2 is by far the worst port on the Wii U.
It was ported by a handful of people(I believe someone said 4) in less than 6 months with a budget of a bankrupt company that was going out of business. They likely did as much as they could, then released it as is. I doubt their was time or money for anything more with THQ being auctioned off piece by piece.
As Fourth said, its in "almost" all games. There are exceptions.
ArchangelWest
Member
It's why I keep trying to get insight from them. They usually give a kernel here and there that helps people on this thread see things a little more clearly, or help to put their thoughts together on certain topics. Also, comparatively speaking in regard to the more knowledgeable here, it's the only way I can contribute to these kinds of threads
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Me neither, I doubt you will ever see something on that scale from them. I get what your saying, they're not for big budget games.
That game was magical. It even tore up on PC. *Shrugs*.
Could it be something that was introduced with a later sdk? Darksiders was one of the earliest to start iirc.
I figured vsync was now mandatory because it had something to do with keeping the GamePad stream synced with the main screen? Not sure that makes sense though.
It's why I keep trying to get insight from them. They usually give a kernel here and there that helps people on this thread see things a little more clearly, or help to put their thoughts together on certain topics. Also, comparatively speaking in regard to the more knowledgeable here, it's the only way I can contribute to these kinds of threads
Yeah those guys are great. If only everyone so openly talked!
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Yea that shinen game will probably shit on many games for what it will be. When are they gonna show it?
I asked the on twitter during E3 and they told me fall. Propably the next Wiiu direct that isn't game specific or something like that
ArchangelWest
Member
The most specific that they've been so far is that they'll announce more this Fall. So any time now I'd guess.
And I won't take any developer word about anything if you have money involved there
Then this can be said about any insider on this board. Everyone has money involved in something.
phosphor112
Banned
Ah, I suppose that makes sense.
10ns isn't really that impressive as standard DDR3 has that these days, but then again, the clock frequency is several hundred times faster than that RAM that you mentioned. Edit: Forgot to mention that the latency is more than one cycle. High clock rate...n all.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
That isnt game specific?
I remember in the summer they said fall, I guess we will wait.
like the last NIntendo direct was a Wii Fit U specific direct, or the Wonderful 101 one we got before.
plank
Member
But those are games. :/
of course they are. Maybe I wrote it wrong, I meant the next direct, that isn't concentrated on a single game. The directs I mentioned were dedicated to a single game (the Wii Fit one in the end to two games). I should have added the word single to my first post
Wonderful 101 is also an outstanding game btw
If v-synch is mentioned in the Lot Checks it would be Recommended not Required.
w1gglyjones
Member
That really wasn't what I was assuming. I didn't write that out correctly, sorry.
Thanks.
Yeah, I get that, but it's still puzzling. I posed the question to him because the guy shows up talking about Wii U being a "current gen +" or a refined/perfect "current gen" system... and for all the obvious improvements to the hardware, offers zero explanations as to why "current gen ports" are mediocre. Zero insight into potential pros and cons. I know the guy is a dev and wants to protect his job, but his comments are cryptic and more just statements of casual observation.
Why not? Having big bugets games is a prerequisite for programming talent and knowledge now? Who better to talk about a console's power than people who are known for extremely tight code? People that have done consistently amazing things with incredibly small resources(in both hardware and man-power)? These are the guys that crammed Nano Assult Neo into 50MB. 50MB!! I mean, who does that?! Doing things as efficiently as they do requires a good use and understanding of the hardware. Sloppy code and brute force won't cut it.
Can't you even imagine what guys like these could do(technically) if given the money and a larger team? Knocking them because their games have been on very small budgets, while ignoring the fact that they are among some of the most talented programmers in the industry... come across as really silly.
megabytecr
Member
I would love if they take the chance. Maybe start with a bigger project via Kickstarter, maybe going from very small game to a B-tier game, they would definitely have my money
I didn't really have a problem with what you said. I just didn't see the need for the obligatory negative statement just to please them.
For those particular people you mentioned, it wouldn't matter even if Epic, Crytek or any other big well known dev said it. It wouldn't change their opinion in the least. They are a word I will refrain form using as I don't like to use insults in place of real points but it begins with an f. Bayonetta 2 is a clear exmaple They will dismiss or ignore any claim that is positive of the Wii U, and no matter what the game looks like, they will say it A. Doesn't look "impressive(ie. they will never find anything on Nintendo hardware impressive simply for the fact that is on Nintendo hardware) and B. Say that the PS3/360 can do the exact same thing. They will completely ignore statements by the devs of Trine 2; DC and Scribblenauts unlimited who straight up said the PS3/360 couldn't do what the Wii U could.
Honestly, its better to just ignore them. Just as there are people who still say the PS1 was stronger than the N64 and the PS2 was stronger than the GC, there will be people who insist the last gen consoles are stronger than the Wii U, or that the Wii U is not much better than them until their dying breath. Nothing will change their mind.
Shin'en and the indie devs are the best sources for info on the Wii U as they are not money locked to publishers and companies that govern their paycheck/opinion.
You're wasting your time. They will not listen to any opinion by any dev that is positive about the hardware. If a big dev says something, they'll just write it off as PR talk just the same as they write of a smaller dev for not making "big"(undefined) games, or they'll write them off as something related to money investments like lherre did on the last page. They'll cook up some excuse to dismiss what the dev says guaranteed.
The devs of Shin'en are some of the best developers I have ever seen. They do things with hardware with their small teams and budget that the biggest companies couldn't manage.
They are the best source of info for the Wii U GPU that we have. It will be nice to see what they do with the tessllator in the next game.
megabytecr
Member
Speaking about Crytek, new CryEngine supports Wii U, I hope this engine is used more, and we see something soon on Wii U, would be good to judge the system as well.
It is a shame Crysis 3 did not come to Wii U.
It is a shame Crysis 3 did not come to Wii U.
Well we do have comments from epic and dice devs. Really a mix messge at best.
But the games speak for themselves in the end. But it really not fair to the wiiu because the next Gen consoles are launching. Not really a fair fight.
Art direction could make up for the lower power parts. Even the wii had some great looking games because of the art direction even though at the technical level they were not impressive compared to ps360.
Then this can be said about any insider on this board. Everyone has money involved in something.
And this is what we know as "irony" though its a lot more than in some of the cases. Though of enough of this. Its time to get back to the GPU.
I'm really interested in identifying block K and the small unlabeled block beside the eDRAM.
I'm still convinced that Nintendo have evolved the TEV Unit to give the GPU a standard rendering pipeline and keeping the fixed functions, albeit in a form that will integrate well with third party engines. I'd say that HDR lighting and shadows and depth of field effects would be good candidates. No idea where they would be on the die shot though.
I say this for the same reason I think that Nintendo are doing something devious with the memory - they knew ages ago that the PS4 was supposed to have 4GB of RAM and the One was supposed to have 8GB and that both CPUs and GPUs were going to be much more powerful so they must have a few things going on to bridge the gap in power so that third parties could port to and from all 3 consoles.
I say this for the same reason I think that Nintendo are doing something devious with the memory - they knew ages ago that the PS4 was supposed to have 4GB of RAM and the One was supposed to have 8GB and that both CPUs and GPUs were going to be much more powerful so they must have a few things going on to bridge the gap in power so that third parties could port to and from all 3 consoles.
Nobody knew what the PS4 and XboxOne would have in them last year. Not even Sony or Microsoft. Even now you are still hearing about revisions being made. Half of the tech they are using didn't even exist when the Wii U was announced.
The info about the PS4/Xboxone memory count at the time were just as much a rumor as the Wii U having 768 MB of RAM total. As far as power gap is concered, that has never been true reason for any port being on a conosle or not being on it. That is usually just the most convienient. Even now we are hearing devs complain about the disparity between the Xboxone and the PS4. I expect there to be a lot more variance amongst games this gen and a lot more devs going bankrupt.
As for the TEV, there is next to no chance it is on the die. It is too big to miss. Also, it was more or less out by the Iwata asks for the Wii U. There is no Wii hardware in the Wii U. Its more than likely just being emulated on the GPU shaders.
Actually most of those comments were based on publisher bias. At least in Crytek's case. Almost all of those devs went back and ate their words in case people forgot.
That's why I said an evolution of the TEV Unit, bunging in the TEV Unit from Flipper/Hollywood would give the Wii U the same problem that the Wii had with a nonstandard rendering pipeline. Use of 'free' use of HDR and depth of field amongst other things would be a real boon for developers.
This makes no sense your better of putting the new space towards more programmable shaders, not ancient ff tech.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Blu reporting.
Yes, latency is the major factor for scattered reads. BW also plays a role there, though, depending on whether you could or could not bypass the GPU caches under cases if extreme scattering. Consider the following scenario: you have a GPU cache feeding the pipeline. You have scattered reads fetching a few texels from here, a few from there. Now, texture caches don't work in texels, they work in tiles (at least when they work optimally) which is the texture-cache equivalent of CPU cache lines. A tile can have various sizes based on texture format, GPU cache implementation, etc, but the point is, for a given texture format, a given GPU will use the same tile size (if the texture is tiled, in the first place). Some of the AMD GPUs I've worked with have had cache tile sizes as big as 32x32. Now, when said scattered texel reads hit a cached tile it's all fine and dandy; when they hit outside of a cached tile, though, a cache miss will incur a tile read. Now image your scattered reads were so bad, that on the average they hit a tile just once, before they incurred a tile miss. From there on you can imagine the consequences for the BW, I believe ; )
Traditionally (as in Flipper & Xenos), embedded console framebuffers have held only the back buffer - all the front buffers sit in main RAM, at the expense of the BW required to copy a fb out of edram. I don't know how Latte handles that - it could very well be a matter of developer's choice.
Thats why Nintendo using compression technology was brought up.
FROM IBM:
and or from S3T3
So, if Nintendo used compression technology from S3 (GPU) and possibly in combination with AME (CPU)... how large does 32MB of eDRAM look like to the system and developers?
Since we now know that the 32MB of eDRAM is accessible by both the CPU and GPU.
And we have reports from developers that WiiU has a lot of memory to work with.
Broken Hope
Member
AMD's Tessellation performance pre GCN was horrible so I wouldn't put much faith in the Wii U's being used for much if at all.
ColdBlooder
Banned
Shin'ens next game uses tesselation. They already announced that on Twitter. Nintendo dosen't implent stuff into their chips if they aren't useable. If it has tesselation, it will be used in games.
Of course it usable it doesn't mean the performance in comparison to GCN is any good.
ColdBlooder
Banned
No one knows how it performs. Seeing as the GPU is basically a custom job it may be faster, equal or slower. Who knows?
maybe ask Shin'en on Twitter, they do respond. Sometimes at least.
freezamite
Banned
It's a big relief then that the WiiU GPU was finished AFTER the GCN architecture was put on sale, or in other words, the Wii U GPU's silicon was finished at least 3-4 months after the HD7000 series silicon was finished.
Lets assume its all better because we know nothing about it, right, we should assume its GCN3 as well?.
freezamite
Banned
Just let's assume that is a more modern silicon than a vanilla GCN, that's all. What hasn't the least of senses is to assume that there will be useless parts on there on a customized design made specifically for Nintendo.
If there's a tessellation unit, then it is capable enough to produce good results for what it was worth.
Then there are tons of other factors to consider like the smaller area of the Latte GPU that of course limits what can be crammed on it, but what it doesn't has any sense is to think that it's performance per transistor and clock won't be higher than vanilla designs that are older than it.
Latte won't be GCN3, Latte is Latte, a GPU whose silicon was finished in January 2012 approximately, so there's no reason to think its innards are ancient 2007-2008 tech. If there is a part made of 2007-2008 tech then it's because it fit their design more than current tech (and that's because performance per transistor is not the only factor that determines GPU advancements on the PC scene, which may lend to more ineffective designs like VLIW4 went as an evolution of the superior hardware-wise VLIW5 because the asymmetric design of the VLIW5 on a PC scenario was inefficient and the drivers weren't able to feed all the units).
So all in all it's impossible to make assumptions besides obvious things like nintendo not wasting a single mm^2 of area on "useless units" like the ones you claim this GPU is filled of.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
You made the assumption it might not be 'any good' compared to GCN. The other posters have been saying it was apparently good enough to be used by Shin'en in some (one?) of their upcoming WiiU titles. Who's making the assumptions here?
I never said it was useless I merely disagreeing with people where who think nintendo sprinkles magic fairy dust over a GPU and it suddenly gets 10x more efficient. Most of the modifications for the Wii U's GPU honestly seem more centred around getting 100% BC through H/W BC not having '0 useless parts' on it. The sooner people come to terms with that the better.
Everyone, because we know nothing, and nintendo is a company who knows more about making GPU's then a GPU company, obviously. Until someone can show some actual evidence of all these magical modifications nintendo apparently made then I can't really be called out for 'making assumptions'.
These developers didn't develop on/for PCs?
ColdBlooder
Banned
I read my post multiple times. Can you point out where i make the assumption please? Cause i can't find it.
All i said is: "No one knows how well/ and fast the tesselator works compared to other chips".
Probably is better
they're saying devs have used more than last gens amount of ram. reacting to your comment.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
You guys are aware that GCN is the architecture the XB1 and PS4 GPUs are based on right? Every bit of evidence we have suggests that Latte is derived from R700.
Welcome to my world.
This is what happens when you say things that even remotely sound like they could be good about the hardware.
Not the last I saw. Every single bit of evidence we have suggest that the Wii U GPU is custom made and could be derived from any(mulitple) GPUs that was released up until 2012 with Brazos providing the most component matches. The only link to the R700's is that it was using the highest end R700 in early dev kits.
Show us the evidence, I would love to see it.
Show you evidence of our finding in this thread about the GPU? insert >> "this thread" >> endline. There you go.
Now show us evidence of all th claims you made and all of the nay saying you've done over the last 19 posts
It would appear to me based off the die images atleast that its 99% the same as R700 part the rest could probably easily be attributed to wanting to get that 100 H/W BC for the Wii / GC games out.
Now could I see your evidence please?.
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