Support NeoGAF

[Pie and Beans]

At first I was like "hey, that's pretty rude", but then I was like "oh wait, this might have not even happened".

Is it still just he said, she said? No video of the event or anything?

Yep, might need video at this point. The whole social justice thing choking every single piece of videogame news these days is getting to a fever pitch at this point that is affecting a whole lot of perception across the board.

Hopefully for Laura this actually did happen or otherwise thats a persecution complex kicked up and out into public that could lead to a libel case.

 

[meltingparappa]

Wait, WTF, I'm almost starting to feel sorry about defending her now..

I feel gullible..

You should always feel skeptical, especially in hearing a one sided recounting of a non-recorded event via twitter.

The point stands is that she was made uncomfortable, possibly by accident, and now people are being monsters to her.

 

[fallagin]

A lot of people dont realize that, and use "it" because they don't want to offend by saying either gender.

I really dont think that is true. 'It' is typically used to refer to innanimate objects or animals.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

personally i think we should take more care not to offend oppressed minorities than the cisgendered majority who don't have to deal with discriminatory bullshit all the time.

Some people find the term "cisgender" offensive. Some of those people are minorities too.

We could all take more care, but for many there's an innocent line that's occasionally crossed, and we can't all agree on where it lies.

 

[Gestault]

i don't see what that has to do with anything?

it sounds like he's speculating based on no personal knowledge of this type of situation

You're assuming that he couldn't be close enough with anyone outside of the traditional gender/sex paradigm to understand their concerns (with no basis), and you're using that assumption to dismiss the perspective.

 

[aeolist]

Yes.

Have any witnesses spoken up yet?

Yep, might need video at this point. The whole social justice thing choking every single piece of videogame news these days is getting to a fever pitch at this point that is affecting a whole lot of perception across the board.

Hopefully for Laura this actually did happen or otherwise thats a persecution complex kicked up and out into public that could lead to a libel case.

https://twitter.com/mikeBithell/status/384318178891161600

 

[Silky]

do you know any trans people?

Yes. I never asked what they identified as, I just called them as I saw them. (what their physical appearance was.)

I suppose I was lucky. For reference, I asked my friend just minutes ago if it were okay to ask. He said yes.

Guess I was lucky.

 

[Anonumos]

I just think the interests of a website called, "PureXbox" is going to go out of their way to defend a brand and is probably a worse source than anything we currently have.

Well Microsoft is a very LGBT friendly company and that is pretty well known, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say. You think they are secretly trying to sweep this under the rug because they are called "PureXbox"? Really?

 

[Zornack]

Have any witnesses spoken up yet?

Mike Bithell tweeted about the incident but his tweet came after Luara's so it's unclear if he was actually at the event or reacting to her tweet about it.

https://twitter.com/mikeBithell/status/384318178891161600

He tweeted at 7:00, she tweeted at 6:20. We don't know if he was at the event or just reacting to her tweet.

 

[Jackson]

So... isn't there a video of this presentation somewhere? That would easily sort out who said what.

Saying "this person" is completely acceptable in a situation like this.

 

[Night Angel]

would you like to respond to the substance of any one of my posts rather than making ad hominem attacks?

Sure. Your requests are unreasonable because you want people to ask a question that is potentially offensive to the vast majority of people on the behalf of an extremely small subsection of society.
As for the ad hominem: As soon as you see disagreement, you start railing against privilege and belittling other arguments on the basis that they are invalid because of said privilege. You have done it in almost every thread relating to the gender issue that I've ever seen. You have even had to change your posts because a mod called you out for being too hostile. So please, spare me the indignation.

 

[SpoonyBard]

With boobs. Named Laura.

He may have missed the name and only looked at the face... Well, impossible to tell without actually being there, but I'd like to think of it being a simple misunderstanding.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

So there were 350 people in the room.

And nobody has stood up as a witness yet to support either argument?

 

[Warmijwilf]

https://twitter.com/mikeBithell/status/384318178891161600

Yes, because a "personal friend" closed to the alleged victim would definitely publicly out her as being wrong and over defensive about a situation, and not take her side. And clearly said personal friend isn't going to be bias whatsoever.

Wow.

 

[aeolist]

Sure. Your requests are unreasonable because you want people to ask a question that is potentially offensive to the vast majority of people on the behalf of an extremely small subsection of society.
As for the ad hominem: As soon as you see disagreement, you start railing against privilege and belittling other arguments on the basis that they are invalid because of said privilege. You have done it in almost every thread relating to the gender issue that I've ever seen. You have even had to change your posts because a mod called you out for being too hostile. So please, spare me the indignation.

i apologized for making a single post that had inflammatory language but valid substance

calling someone privileged is not an insult

again, please point to anything in this thread you'd like to take issue with and i'd be glad to have a conversation

 

[bj00rn_]

I just think the interests of a website called, "PureXbox" is going to go out of their way to defend a brand and is probably a worse source than anything we currently have.

Oh ffs.. I don't care about what the name of a website is, or to be a part of conspiracy nuttery, I just want the truth.

 

[Impeccable]

Well Microsoft is a very LGBT friendly company and that is pretty well known, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say. You think they are secretly trying to sweep this under the rug because they are called "PureXbox"? Really?

I don't understand what you're saying or implying.

I've already stated several times I fully expect Microsoft to apologize because of their good stance and forward thinking on these issues. I am just skeptical of a website with a clear bias is going to add anything factual accounts of what happened with a balanced view.

As far as I was (am?) aware that website has no affiliation with Microsoft. We'll get the truth eventually, just don't think we have a clear view yet.

 

[Warmijwilf]

i apologized for making a single post that had inflammatory language but valid substance

calling someone privileged is not an insult

again, please point to anything in this thread you'd like to take issue with and i'd be glad to have a conversation

You do see the problem with what you're asking to do though? As in wanting people to ask a question that is potentially offensive to most people for the sake of an extremely small part of society that is statistically extremely unlikely to be the subject of the question?

You're basically asking us to insult 100 people so 1 person isn't insulted.

 

[kartu]

I'm puzzled about how would somebody know that someone is transgender...

 

[Derpstar]

So there were 350 people in the room.

And nobody has stood up as a witness yet to support either argument?

This gaffer claims to have been there and that it was a simple mistake:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84018887&postcount=482

 

[Anonumos]

Oh ffs.. I don't care about what the name of a website is, I just want the truth.

Buuuut it's called "pureXBOX" open your eyes sheeple

 

[alan666]

DON'T READ THE COMMENTS

I know, Laura has mentioned the comments, i am ashamed to be a member of kotaku from what some have said on there

 

[Impeccable]

Buuuut it's called "pureXBOX" open your eyes sheeple

This kind of stuff is very tiring.

 

[Pie and Beans]

https://twitter.com/mikeBithell/status/384318178891161600

Timeline reads as a tweet reaction and not an in-person one. Total lack of anyone else in droves coming forward is possibly telling at this point over an incredibly public event on mic.

Who knows, maybe a video or more witnesses will surface but looks to be right now another case of why Twitter is like some kind of UNPROFESSIONAL NOW button.

Also I find 'cisgender' almost as offensive as all the 'he-she' stuff, personally. It is the language of a militant and its always the same "WHITE CIS PRIVILEGE" trio found in sentences that allows my brain to disengage and label someone not as a voice of reason and inclusion but a combative source of venom drawing lines in the sand.

 

[Anonumos]

Holy shit, the fact this situation exists is pretty ridiculous. I was there and saw the whole thing. The presenter genuinely did not know whether or not is was a man/woman and didn't really say anything that could have been taken in offense. Technically, this journalist is a man, so saying that you're offended by being called one is pretty ridiculous. I wasn't even sure at the time, I just thought it was a dude with colourful hair.

I think this has been blown way out or proportion. Overreaction much...

This is good to know. Do you have any proof you were there? I'm trying to have her side here but it would really be a shitty thing to do if she made this up.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

This gaffer claims to have been there and that it was a simple mistake:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84018887&postcount=482

Well then this Laura Kate Dale seems to have caused even more humiliation than she apparently felt in the first place.

 

[aeolist]

You do see the problem with what you're asking to do though? As in wanting people to ask a question that is potentially offensive to most people for the sake of an extremely small part of society that is statistically extremely unlikely to be the subject of the question?

in 99% of cases a person's gender is clear and obvious

in the tiny number of cases in which a person's gender is unclear it is probably more likely that you are dealing with an actual trans person rather than an androgynous cisgendered person, and in those cases asking is the most reasonable course of action for anyone with a sense of empathy

 

[Mzo]

He may have missed the name and only looked at the face... Well, impossible to tell without actually being there, but I'd like to think of it being a simple misunderstanding.

No, I agree, I was just being snarky. I'm hoping a video surfaces so we can have a better idea of what happened.

Something tells me it wasn't malicious, but you never know.

As for the game industry needing to deal with this stuff better... yes, duh, but why is it singled out? It's more of a general perception issue than a specific video game industry issue. This was a random comedian that has nothing to do with the video game industry. You pluck the average person out of the world at random and they would probably have trouble with the issue.

 

[meltingparappa]

I'm puzzled about how would somebody know that someone is transgender...

There are indeed many subjectively androgynous cis people out there. I think the point is that you wouldn't want to call ANYONE "it", and accidentally using it on a transgendered person has the full potential to come off as absolutely mean-spirited and in especially poor taste.

 

[bj00rn_]

I am just skeptical of a website with a clear bias is going to add anything factual accounts of what happened with a balanced view.

What bias? If anything, if they are biased towards MS they would have even greater incentive to tell the truth considering MS's history. So stop with the BS unless you know some actual facts.

 

[FlyFaster]

Yep, might need video at this point. The whole social justice thing choking every single piece of videogame news these days is getting to a fever pitch at this point that is affecting a whole lot of perception across the board.

Hopefully for Laura this actually did happen or otherwise thats a persecution complex kicked up and out into public that could lead to a libel case.

I pretty much hate MS but I agree with you, things are getting out of hand.

Everyone needs a cause to champion and everyone gets hyper-sensitive about any issue they can.

 

[Warmijwilf]

in 99% of cases a person's gender is clear and obvious

in the tiny number of cases in which a person's gender is unclear it is probably more likely that you are dealing with an actual trans person rather than an androgynous cisgendered person, and in those cases asking is the most reasonable course of action for anyone with a sense of empathy

It isn't obvious at all in some cases though, I looked at her and first thought "Male brony who likes Rainbow Dash", not "a recently transitioning MTF", to be brutally honest.

 

[Pandanaut]

Again - the thing I go back to is if the comedian was on stage asking for a woman, and if Laura came up to the stage in the same outfit we see in her photos, I can very well see a situation where he says something along the lines of "I asked for a woman, and you brought me this? What is it?" This would not be based on gender, but outward appearance due to the wig and what have you.

I don't want to sound like I condone the behavior - and the comedian did say he didn't say that - but we just have to know the context.

 

[Night Angel]

You do see the problem with what you're asking to do though? As in wanting people to ask a question that is potentially offensive to most people for the sake of an extremely small part of society that is statistically extremely unlikely to be the subject of the question?

This is the part where you are told that the majority should suck it up because they are privileged and haven't had to deal with said discrimination their whole lives.

In a perfect world, no one should be discriminated against. I would love to be a part of that world. Transitioning to that place will take time, though, and throwing the majority under the bus seems like just about the worst possible way to go about achieving that goal.

Edit: thanks for clarifying your PoV, aeolist. That sounds very reasonable. In tone, it is much different from your original post on the subject. I agree that in cases of confusion, it is reasonable to ask. However, people have different interpretations on what they see, so there are bound to mistakes.

 

[aeolist]

It isn't obvious at all in some cases though, I looked at her and first thought "Male brony who likes Rainbow Dash", not "a recently transitioning MTF", to be brutally honest.

she has breasts

how is this hard?

 

[Dantis]

I feel like this situation isn't as clear cut as some people are making it out to be.

Considering the context, even if it played out exactly as she says it did (Which would be the worst-case scenario), I have a feeling it was his idea of humour.

And no, comedians aren't allowed to just say anything because they're comedians. But given the time and the place, I somehow doubt he thought he was going to upset anyone.

If she's offended, that's unfortunate. Genuinely. But maybe that doesn't justify some of the disgust that's being displayed here. On either side.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

What does the journalist look like? From the twitter pic I could see the confusion.

edit:
It also seems like the way the journalist is talking is that the stage presenter knew what he was doing and did it with malicious intent. I don't see how that could be the case unless the presenter knew who the journalist was beforehand. Frankly, the journalist seems to be in attention grabbing make a big fuss mood but who knows, maybe the complaints are legit.

 

[Mzo]

she has breasts

how is this hard?

I had a couple of friends who were dating that I assumed to be lesbians upon first meeting them. Turns out one of them feels like a boy trapped in a girl's body and has since then taken steps towards a change.

My point is they both had breasts. How is this so easy?

 

[Fred-87]

i dislike the whole publicly shaming thing. it is like modern witch-hunting. Yes i agree it is offensive to use the word 'it' in this case. But maybe he did not meaned it in a bad way or to make a cheap joke. Maybe he in the rush of presenting a show could not think such fast if she is woman or man and he did not want to hurt her feelings so he said 'it'. Even if that is more painful for someone who is born man but wants to be female or someone who is born man and wants to be man. But he said that with good intentions... possible not? Or maybe he was being an asshole on purpose... also possible. In either way a witch-hunt is not good untill you know for sure. Thats why she should not have started this and just tried to contact him (i know she tried, but keep on trying) or try to forget about it.

 

[Derpstar]

she has breasts

how is this hard?

To be fair, that isn't really a clear indication of gender. Many males have breasts after all

 

[alan666]

Timeline reads as a tweet reaction and not an in-person one. Total lack of anyone else in droves coming forward is possibly telling at this point over an incredibly public event on mic.

Who knows, maybe a video or more witnesses will surface but looks to be right now another case of why Twitter is like some kind of UNPROFESSIONAL NOW button.

Also I find 'cisgender' almost as offensive as all the 'he-she' stuff, personally. It is the language of a militant and its always the same "WHITE CIS PRIVILEGE" trio found in sentences that allows my brain to disengage and label someone not as a voice of reason and inclusion but a combative source of venom drawing lines in the sand.

Laura has said that she had no internet at times during the show, maybe this was the reason ?

 

[Warmijwilf]

she has breasts

how is this hard?

They're not exactly blatantly obvious in the picture, I wasn't exactly searching for them. They're hardly in-your-face... and in the rush of the stage when you're presenting to 350 people and several people are walking around on stage and you have to treat all of them equally, I can imagine missing that too.

 

[Impeccable]

What bias? If anything, if they are biased towards MS they would have even greater incentive to tell the truth considering MS's history. So stop with the BS unless you know some actual facts.

Well if you find what that website says as satisfactory to your view point then that's fine, I can't control that. There's no reason for you to be so aggressive when someone offers a differing perspective on things.

I understand you want the truth but it's a bit funny when people are quick to question Laura's view of events but quickly accept one alternative viewpoint on the situation as somehow more factual.

"One Gaffer said" - Oh well that proves it!
"PureXbox said" - Proven!

Neither should or do have more weight than our original account of the events. To claim to want to know nothing but the truth than jump just as quickly on any conflicting reports is really baffling.

 

[Arcteryx]

wtf is with that "dropping out of the industry" comment?

Because gaming is the only "industry" with anti-anything comments/actions by some?

Just call out the person; quit acting like it's anything more than just a few dipshits doing it.

 

[Zornack]

she has breasts

how is this hard?

In the pictures of her in a red shirt she looks very much male. We don't know what she was wearing or what she looked like to the host under bright stage lights.

 

[Tookay]

in 99% of cases a person's gender is clear and obvious

in the tiny number of cases in which a person's gender is unclear it is probably more likely that you are dealing with an actual trans person rather than an androgynous cisgendered person, and in those cases asking is the most reasonable course of action for anyone with a sense of empathy

Yes asking what a person's gender is in front of 350 people wouldn't be awkward at all. Nor would it have triggered the same embarrassment for the journalist...

 

[charlequin]

personally i think we should take more care not to offend oppressed minorities than the cisgendered majority who don't have to deal with discriminatory bullshit all the time.

This kind of position undermines the goal of respect you are (rightfully) trying to promote here. It's okay to commit micro aggressions against cis people who don't conform in their gender presentation out of convenience? The reality is that it's actually just kind of a challenge to respectfully determine how to interact with a stranger's gender sometimes, there isn't an easy shortcut, but you have a responsibility to do it anyway.

There were ways to respectfully refer to Laura in this situation, but asking every man or woman who looks vaguely androgynous what gender they are isn't it.

 

[partyphone]

Yes asking what a person's gender is in front of 350 people wouldn't be awkward at all. Nor would it have triggered the same embarrassment for the journalist...

Well I'm glad the comedian wasn't made to feel awkward.

 

[charlequin]

There are indeed many subjectively androgynous cis people out there. I think the point is that you wouldn't want to call ANYONE "it", and accidentally using it on a transgendered person has the full potential to come off as absolutely mean-spirited and in especially poor taste.

Yeah, it's not hard to understand that "it" is never appropriate.

 

[Whools]

Seen a few people saying she is legally a man, and not many people correct them, so if you don't know, in the UK transgender people can change their sex in a legal sense, so the idiots saying otherwise, she is most definitely a woman. (assuming she applied to change her birth cert)