bang bang
US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised
- Thread starter Jarmel
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bang bang
it's weird how obama has actually had to compromise to breaking point just to get the affordable care act to where it is now, but given that he's not going to compromise on, y'know, torpedoing the entire initiative, he could actually come out this looking strong and resolute thanks to this new GOP assault.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
You know I can agree on a lot of the both sides are to blame arguments but this time you just can't be more wrong. All Democrats want to do is carry on with the proper procedures and fund a law that was passed and upheld by the Supreme Court. Republicans for some reason are just being hardliners.
If you can't see that then there's no hope.
If you can't see that then there's no hope.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Well then consider Dax's more apt example of the Bush tax cuts then. And I would hardly call the two situations analogous as the fight over potentially defunding the war never got as close nor was the tactic considered a realistic proposition or result. Perhaps I have rose tinted glasses, but I remember that more as post election posturing rather than a real political hard line that people expected the democrats to follow through on.
Obama and Reid simply can't compromise here. If they did, it would set a precedent that makes taking the country hostage because of an enacted policy you don't like-- regardless if it has been reaffirmed judicially, legislatively, and democratically via elections--a legitimate legislative strategy!!
We would have this style of showdowns every few months! Can you imagine another 4-8 years of this if/when Hilary wins in 2016? Because that will happen of the Dems bend on this. And every subsequent hostage taking situation would have the GOP demanding more and more.
This recent phenomenon of hostage taking needs to end now for the sake of the nation. This is NOT about ACA/Obamacare anymore.
We would have this style of showdowns every few months! Can you imagine another 4-8 years of this if/when Hilary wins in 2016? Because that will happen of the Dems bend on this. And every subsequent hostage taking situation would have the GOP demanding more and more.
This recent phenomenon of hostage taking needs to end now for the sake of the nation. This is NOT about ACA/Obamacare anymore.
It was being pushed very hard by more extremist members of the Democrat party, but unlike the Tea Party, those Dems held no power and so the proposal went no where for a few years and then eventually people just stopped talking about it.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Apples and oranges.
everything is exactly the same as other things. Government is like a superconducting heat exchange mechanism where no blame or fa is lost or gained in the process.
Megalosaro
Banned
Can we get a list of Senators and Representatives who are responsible for the shutdown?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
-ic party
PoweredBySoy
Banned
I'm sure Hillary would appreciate that....
Fenderputty
Banned
WTF am I reading here. In what parallel universe should the dems receive blame for not giving into economic extortion.
Nvm.
This, basically.
There's no question that a clean CR could pass the House of Representatives. The only reason it hasn't is that the Speaker of the House has not put it up for a vote.
You can argue that there are a whole lot of people responsible for pressuring Boehner to avoid bringing the CR up for a vote and threatening him with all manner of consequences, but the reality is that the absolute worst thing anybody can realistically threaten John Boehner with is unemployment, which is what he just gave 800,000 people. The onus is on him to hold the vote.
No. He can't do anything. He might be able to use the 14th to unilaterally raise the debt ceiling when that fight comes but even that is murky.
Not technically no, since the financial purse strings are technically still one of the powers wholly controlled by congress. However, it would make for an interesting constitutional debate in front of the supreme court. I do think however, that if he attempted to do so, the next response to the situation would be an attempt at impeachment.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
The greater point still stands, as it's not about whether Democrats have ever explored something similar, it's about whether the tactic itself would have been justifiable if they had gone through with it to the same extent the Republicans are. Everyone knows it would have been crazy to do that in regards to the war, but when it becomes about health care suddenly it becomes reasonable. War has a much greater moral and political magnitude, so its hard to see why something with such lower stakes could possibly legitimize such an extreme tactic in comparison.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
Every function of government should not be arm-twisted into a contentious bout of brinkmanship that requires concessions to get past. House Republicans are solely responsible for this mess.
This is the Democrats taking a stand for the first time in a long time. They've dealt with this nonsense for years but have finally reached the point where enough is enough. Congress cannot continue to operate this way.
What you're reading is the end result of decades of false even-handedness in the media that pretends that the right answer to any given question is directly in the middle of the Democratic/Republican proposals.
This is the Democrats taking a stand for the first time in a long time. They've dealt with this nonsense for years but have finally reached the point where enough is enough. Congress cannot continue to operate this way.
What you're reading is the end result of decades of false even-handedness in the media that pretends that the right answer to any given question is directly in the middle of the Democratic/Republican proposals.
PoweredBySoy
Banned
Bachmann went No?
BotoxAgent
Member
This is something I honestly don't understand. How can the Tea Party Caucus hold so much power over Boehner? Aren't there only around 50 of them in the House?
I understand they could get rid of him as Speaker, but wouldn't that in all likelihood result in Pelosi retaking the job? Why would any of them want that?
Also, as far as the Hastert Rule goes, how many Republicans in the House would actually pass a clean CR? If it's everyone except the tea party then wouldn't that fulfill the rule easily?
I keep seeing that Boehner is incompetent and afraid of the tea party but what is there to suggest that he doesn't believe in their bullshit himself?
A republican would take the job. Probably the Majority Whip.
It's not just Boehner. Moderate Republicans are worried that they'll get primaried against a Tea Party candidate if they don't follow along with their ideological agenda, so they cave in and vote with them.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Because Boehner will get primaried from his own party and lose his position as Speaker.
FlashFlooder
Member
assuming you live in the US, you should ALWAYS be worried. And scared.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Here is an interesting list of some Republicans who are against the shutdown, with comments from them too:
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/09/30/2698471/republicans-against-the-shutdown/
Some notable comments:
Gov. Chris Christie (R-NJ): I think theres got to be a solution other than that. And I dont think that we should be doing that. I dont think and I quite frankly, be fair, I dont think you hear responsible Republican leaders advocating a shutdown of the government.
Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney: Were more effective tactically not to use a shutdown of some kind to pursue the anti-Obamacare objective. I dont think that will be as effective.
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ): In the United States Senate, we will not repeal, or defund, Obamacare. We will not. And to think we can is not rational.
Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI): We have to stay on the right side of public opinion Shutting down the government puts us on the wrong side. The fight is on the debt limit.
I guess that makes more sense. I always just assumed Boehner was safe in his district.
It's probably pretty scary right now if you're a congressional Republican or one of the few remaining Blue Dog Democrats.
Honestly, the internal politics of the GOP Caucus are beyond my power to discern. Getting rid of Boehner through a direct vote would require an affirmative vote of 217* House members, and so would appointing a new Speaker, so in terms of REGULAR ORDER, it's basically impossible to get rid of Boehner. But if the caucus has its own rules regarding acceptable Speaker behavior and can somehow get Boehner to "voluntarily" resign, obviously he'd be gone.
At that point we'd be back in Speaker vote territory. Since you need 217 votes for a Speaker, Pelosi can't ever win that vote unless some Republicans actually cross the aisle and vote for her. So it would be up to the GOP to find a candidate that could command 217 Republican votes. Given their previous success whipping for things like "don't shut down the government", it might take them a little while.
Two issues here -- the first is that, because of all the drama, Boehner adopted a super-Hastert Rule in his Speakership -- he only brings up bills that can command 218 Republican votes. The problem is that he used to have about 250 votes to play with -- now he has more like 230. That's a very tight margin of error.
The second issue is that there are actually three positions in the GOP caucus:
a) Will always vote no, wants to watch the world burn
b) Will vote yes on CR, rational actor
c) Will support passage of a clean CR as long as they can vote against it
Group C is the one that makes this especially complicated, because in order to fulfill their wishes, Boehner has to bring up the bill against their expressed desires. As you can imagine, accomplishing that isn't straightforward.
* one is dead right now
Fenderputty
Banned
Fuck you Paul Ryan.
While Republicans in the House are looking awful right now, we have to remember that midterm elections are over a year away, people who tend to vote democrat usually don't show up in large numbers during midterms, and the average American voter as the memory of a goldfish.
I highly doubt many of the Republicans are going anywhere for a while...
I highly doubt many of the Republicans are going anywhere for a while...
you think this is the last stupid thing they are going to do?
Oh, of course not. But, I also wouldn't put any faith in the average American voter, either.
Fenderputty
Banned
Paul Ryan's quote above proves they're not ...
Though I lack faith in the American populace to even grasp what a debt ceiling is.
Though I lack faith in the American populace to even grasp what a debt ceiling is.
A brown man is in office. A lot of white people lost their shit. These said shit lost white people voted the current crop of Republicans in. The current Republicans wish to keep their seat and give the shit lost voters what they want. It's a vicious cycle.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Yes, if it does well then the ACA would be forever untouchable. One less talking point to shout from their soap box.
Here's why I'm not sure I agree:
https://twitter.com/uscapitol/status/384889336229273600
Fifteen thousand retweets and 2600 favorites.
A lot of people are trying to draw lessons from the last shutdown, in the 90s. But this is the first shutdown we're going to have in the age of social media. I honestly believe that people are still underestimating how much of a splash this is going to be and how much people will remember it.
My impression is that most people think that Congress raising the debt ceiling is analogous to Amex approving a maximum balance increase on your credit card.
"How irresponsible! I can't just spend all the money I want and get away with it, why should the government?"
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