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[The Technomancer]

so basically, you, and people like you, are the reason why our healthcare cost is so high and rising.

You don't get health insurance, and have no contingency plan when you need to get expensive medical care. And thus, when you do need it, you're gonna bail on the bill, don't pay it, and thus, the rest of us will have to pay for it by having our premiums raised.

Thanks.

That's a little harsh. A huge part of the ACA is the recognition that health insurance isn't financially feasible for a lot of people who would actually like it if they could afford it, hence the subsidies and the medicaid expansion.

 

[SoldierGryphon]

There are subsidies available if you are poor, and the healthcare provided isn't from "the government". It's from the same private healthcare providers that have always been there. The plans are just new and available to everyone. You aren't buying healthcare from the government.

They certainly tried to get that "public option" in there though, from what I remember.

 

[MThanded]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

So you don't have a grasp of the situation. Got it. ACA had subsidies. Have you looked into that.

 

[Cloudy]

I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

The government isn't the one selling you healthcare under this system. How can you despise something you don't even understand?

No offense but your ignorance is truly stunning..

 

[Black Mamba]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

There's a very good chance your mom is able to get a pretty good healthcare plan for free from a private insurance company, courtesy of the gov't subsidies.

Please visit healthcare.gov and choose your state and go through the website because what you might discover is that this really helps you and your family out a lot.

 

[GaimeGuy]

They certainly tried to get that "public option" in there though, from what I remember.

But it's not there. So what's the issue?
And what would be the problem with having a public option? It'd just be another choice for insurance alongside the private plans.

What's the big deal of having the government join Aetna, Medica, Blue Cross, etc with a plan on the exchanges?

 

[Nerokis]

Anyone assuming poor = obviously covered by the ACA needs to read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/health/millions-of-poor-are-left-uncovered-by-health-law.html

 

[Cloudy]

Please visit healthcare.gov and choose your state and go through the website because what you might discover is that this really helps you and your family out a lot.

It's just so sad that the Republicans have been so successful with their smear campaign against the ACA. You have people mindlessly railing against something that could probably be beneficial to them if they just looked into it. It's kind of impressive in a depressing way...

Trying to think of an analogy to when Bush was prez...this would be like liberals refusing the tax cuts or burning the stimulus checks lol

[/mini derail]

 

[Black Mamba]

Anyone assuming poor = obviously covered by the ACA needs to read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/health/millions-of-poor-are-left-uncovered-by-health-law.html

You can thank John Roberts for that one.

 

[Nerokis]

You can thank John Roberts for that one.

You can also thank John Roberts for the health care bill still existing at all.

(Yeah, the word "existing" might be a bit dramatic. Still.)

 

[Cloudy]

You can thank John Roberts for that one.

I was watching Fox today and they mentioned the coverage gap as a way to bash the ACA without telling their viewers the minor detail of GOP states not expanding Medicaid

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Anyone assuming poor = obviously covered by the ACA needs to read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/health/millions-of-poor-are-left-uncovered-by-health-law.html

I find this incredibly sad. They're playing a political game with this--the subsidies would have covered things.

I'm sure there's the "on the edge" segment of the population that misses out on it as well. If only we had a functioning legislative system we could fix these things.

 

[Black Mamba]

You can also thank John Roberts for the health care bill still existing at all.

(Yeah, the word "existing" might be a bit dramatic. Still.)

Touche.

Truth is, we should be thanking the red states governors and/or legislatures being assholes.

I find this incredibly sad. They're playing a political game with this--the subsidies would have covered things.

I'm sure there's the "on the edge" segment of the population that misses out on it as well. If only we had a functioning legislative system we could fix these things.

The extremely stupid aspect about this is that this time next year the Blue States + Red States that opted to expand will look FAR BETTER than the idiot red states that didn't.

So people are going to be upset obamacare isn't working for them while all the liberal states love it.

 

[Bodacious]

This isn't a minority rule government. The very fact that they're in this position proves they're exploiting a loophole.
.

Haha yeah what the guys who wrote the Constitution considered a feature, you call a loophole.

 

[MetatronM]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

Your family is precisely the sort of people that Obamacare is intended to help the most.

Seriously, you should do some legit research into it and the sorts of subsidies it offers. Don't listen to talking points or political spin (from either side). That crap doesn't help you or your family at all. Just get some real information on the sorts of subsidies and tax incentives you might be able to qualify for. I know our payroll company has a specific Obamacare expert that we can talk to if we have any questions about the law in general. I'm sure there are other free services out there (and government websites) that can give you all that information about it.


Of course, just to bring it back to more partisan issues for a moment (and you can choose to ignore this if you like since I did say you shouldn't listen to political talk), the Republicans in Congress are orchestrating this entire shutdown farce to try to defund Obamacare, which would starve the very subsidies that are supposed to go to families like yours. This is also true of the Republican controlled states that have refused to participate in the Medicaid expansion that is part of Obamacare. The Republicans' crusade here is very specifcally targeted at making your life worse than it would be otherwise. People like you and your family should be the ones most outraged by everything going on here because you're the ones being ruthlessly fucked the hardest by the GOP on this. And they're doing it with a smile.

 

[SoldierGryphon]

But it's not there. So what's the issue?
And what would be the problem with having a public option? It'd just be another choice for insurance alongside the private plans.

What's the big deal of having the government join Aetna, Medica, Blue Cross, etc with a plan on the exchanges?

You don't really want the government to run anything, especially something important to your well-being.

Heck, I have student loans, and they are pretty much legal loan sharks.

And then they'd probably have to raise taxes.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Not wanting healthcare is your choice, but, trust me, the minute you actually have to go the hospital or get healthcare you will be kicking yourself. My first job out of college I wasn't even eligible for the company's healthcare plan until I worked like six months. One one-day surgery and I was $3,500 in the hole.

Also, you aren't buying insurance from the government. It's still all private insurance. Shit, I'd be happy if I could qualify for government insurance like they give military or congressmen. You are lucky they are even selling it and competing against each other. Before ACA, you'd be luck to qualify for Medicaid or Cobra if you didn't have a job. ACA isn't going to be putting private insurance out of business. If anything, the insurance companies will be rolling in money. Lastly, the more people that buy in the lower your premiums are going to be. I don't like paying car insurance, but it's a fuck lot cheaper than health insurance because it's required. The sooner people take advantage of the system the sooner people's premiums are going to drop and the sooner I don't have to pay a king's ransom WITH insurance because there are millions of people like you without insurance the screw it up for the rest of us when you go to the hospital without insurance and we get hit with the cost.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

First off the whole reason for the mandate (your requirement to buy insurance or pay a fee) is because that's the only way to keep people from being turned down for preexisting conditions, which is very important. If you didn't have to buy insurance and couldn't be turned down for preexisting conditions, then here'd be no reason to buy insurance until you get sick. It is a forgone conclusion on both sides that a mandate is necessary for that. The ACA we have is pretty much word for word a Republican proposal (yes they are doing this to fight their own proposal). This is, btw, EXACTLY how car insurance already works.

Also, you would not be buying insurance from the government. That is not how it works at all.

You may not want healthcare, but that's not a valid and rational position just because it's your right to feel that way. But the rest of us can't guarantee to cover what might happen to you unless you help pay into it first.

And you most certainly cannot "opt out" of healthcare even if you were given the option. You and I both know that without the ACA you'll just go to the emergency room when you're sick enough and cost the rest of us even more.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

You don't really want the government to run anything, especially something important to your well-being.
Heck, I have student loans, and they are pretty much legal loan sharks.

And then they'd probably have to raise taxes.

Why? They run and fund highways. Run facilities to make sure your food is safe, make sure your cars are safe. Run programs dedicated to research. NASA is a huge one. So much came from when the program started till now. They help fund your education (also surprise surprise the republicans don't give a shit about student loans or making college more affordable. They were more than willing to let your interest rates double because they honestly don't give a shit). You are completely ignorant to what the government runs and actually does.

And raise taxes? Good. The rich don't pay enough. We pay a large portion of the same taxes other countries do but we get far, far, far less than they would ever think possible. A situation where the government could negotiate prices for all 300+ million people would make costs go down. You wouldn't have to pay nearly as much. Your employer wouldn't need to supply health insurance so you would get paid more.

 

[demon]

You don't really want the government to run anything, especially something important to your well-being.

What ignorant garbage.

 

[LaserBuddha]

What ignorant garbage.

It's from the same family of weak-ass fallacies as "walking the middle and blaming both sides is inherently the intellectually superior position"

 

[SoldierGryphon]

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

You don't really want the government to run anything, especially something important to your well-being.

Heck, I have student loans, and they are pretty much legal loan sharks.

And then they'd probably have to raise taxes.

What are you talking about?? The government runs a shitload of stuff that makes life in the United States awesome.

The alternative to government roads, schools, disease control and stuff is what? Privately owned?

Traffic is backed up on the Pepsi cola
highway!

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

Oh I see... Makes sense corporations are clearly evil.. Government is clearly evil.

Well fuck.

Next time a hurricane wipes a town off the map ask mcdonalds to pay for the cleanup or to charter helicopters to rescue people.

 

[InsaneZero]

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

Corporations are beholden to their stakeholders. Countries are beholden to their citizens.

People have more power over one entity than the other.

 

[Cloudy]

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

Actually almost all the actual running of the government is done by civil servants not politicians

 

[SoldierGryphon]

Corporations are beholden to their stakeholders. Countries are beholden to their citizens.

People have more power over one entity than the other.

Right. I think the very shutdown going on in D.C. right now belies your argument.

 

[theprodigy]

Right. I think the very shutdown going on in D.C. right now belies your argument.

k, countries (excluding Republicans) are beholden to their citizens
better

 

[B-Dubs]

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

You do realize that we have A LOT more say in how one is run compared to the other right?

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Double post sorry.

 

[Cyan]

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

There are certain areas where a profit motive is extremely useful in keeping costs down and innovation up by way of healthy competition. These include consumer products and services, many kinds of technology, etc. In those areas, we don't want the government to run things as that would take away the profit motive.

There are certain areas where a profit motive is detrimental to everyone except the people at the top. These include things like prisons, where a profit motive wouldn't be counterbalanced by pushback from dissatisfied customers, and large-scale infrastructure, where high barriers to entry would prevent meaningful competition. In those areas, we want the government to run things as we don't want there to be a profit motive involved. Some would argue that health insurance falls under this category, for a variety of reasons that I'll leave be for the sake of brevity.

In either of these cases, there will be corruption and agency problems to worry about. But it's important to realize that one sector isn't inherently better than the other. I don't think the public sector is necessarily better or less corrupt or whatever than the private sector, just that it's more suited to operate in certain areas.

 

[Gotchaye]

Right. I think the very shutdown going on in D.C. right now belies your argument.

I don't see how very angry but regular (albeit mostly white) people being able to bring the whole thing to a screeching halt just because they want to and even though basically every monied interest is opposed to the idea is supposed to show that the people have less control over the government than over corporations. Republicans are terrified of primary voters right now. That's why this is happening.

 

[demon]

Right. I think the very shutdown going on in D.C. right now belies your argument.

A few shitbag republicans does not the entire government make. But seeing as how their mission is to prove how awful the government functions by doing everything in their power to disable the government, I'm sure they'd appreciate seeing your posts.

 

[SoldierGryphon]

You do realize that we have A LOT more say in how one is run compared to the other right?

It's not like a customer has no say in a corporation.

I think the MS DRM scheme proved that.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

A few shitbag republicans does not the entire government make. But seeing as how their mission is to prove how awful the government functions by doing everything in their power to disable the government, I'm sure they'd appreciate seeing your posts.

If the democrats had tried to pull this they would be hung for treason.

It's not like a customer has no say in a corporation.

I think the MS DRM scheme proved that.

So majority rules? If so GTFO house republicans and send a CR.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

You do grasp the concept that under ACA you are going to be buying insurance from private insurance companies right? Okay, fine, you don't want insurance. Do you drive a car? If you do, do you have car insurance? Because it's fucking illegal to drive a car without insurance. When the guy without car insurance crashes head-on into your gold-plated Lexus you are fucked. It's the same as people who treat the ER like their private doctors office and end up making us pay for them, mainly because they can't afford it, which is what the subsidies are for. You'd figure this would be an argument Republicans could get behind, you know, with all the personal responsibility bullshit.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

You do grasp the concept that under ACA you are going to be buying insurance from private insurance companies right? Okay, fine, you don't want insurance. Do you drive a car? If you do, do you have car insurance? Because it's fucking illegal to drive a car without insurance. When the guy without car insurance crashes head-on into your gold-plated Lexus you are fucked. It's the same as people who treat the ER like their private doctors office and end up making us pay for them, mainly because they can't afford it, which is what the subsidies are for. You'd figure this would be an argument Republicans could get behind, you know, with all the personal responsibility bullshit.

This is what pisses me off the most! My fuckin sister is irate that she has to get insurance now. Yet she has close to 20k in medical bills from a cancer scare 5 years ago she just fucking never paid back.

ER care babe.

 

[TastyOreoFriend]

Trying to up my knowledge on the ACA a little bit more. I remember reading at some point states who do opt out of the medicaid expansion are suppose to provide something that would cover just as many people correct? Or is that wrong/a no go?

I currently live in a state which opted out of a Medicaid expansion (Florida, thanks Rick Scott!).

 

[watershed]

You don't really want the government to run anything, especially something important to your well-being.

Heck, I have student loans, and they are pretty much legal loan sharks.

And then they'd probably have to raise taxes.

Do you know what the rates and options available for private student loans look like or used to be like? The extremely low, fixed rates on your government loans, lengthy deferral options, and low monthly payments are better than any private loan you might get/have gotten in the past.

 

[SuperBonk]

Do you know what the rates and options available for private student loans look like or used to be like? The extremely low, fixed rates on your government loans, lengthy deferral options, and low monthly payments are better than any private loan you might get/have gotten in the past.

Seriously, private student loans are much worse. I'd much rather have the federal government in charge of them.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Seriously, private student loans are much worse. I'd much rather have the federal government in charge of them.

Hey buddy Moscow is thataway!

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I see Soldier is back. Still waiting for some explanations on the first arguments you made way back in this thread.

 

[SoldierGryphon]

Well before I go, I say this. While I respect your opinion, I think it's incredibly naïve.

You say I should trust government because the people have control of it. But there's the whole other problem I have. I don't trust people. People are selfish by nature and often times don't know what is good for them. They vote on presidents based on populism and some of them can't even name the Speaker of the House, or how many Senators there are. Some are easily manipulated by propaganda. And of course, some of them believe that handing over more of their freedoms little bit by little bit is going to make life better, as if governments all over the world haven't done that. And I see no reason why America is more exceptional than them.

Keep in mind I was never saying I want Pepsi to run roads or McDonalds to cover Hurricane damage. But I believe in keeping government no bigger than is absolutely needed.

Anyways, good night.

 

[Nerokis]

Trying to up my knowledge on the ACA a little bit more. I remember reading at some point states who do opt out of the medicaid expansion are suppose to provide something that would cover just as many people correct? Or is that wrong/a no go?

I currently live in a state which opted out of a Medicaid expansion (Florida, thanks Rick Scott!).

I know what you're referring to, and I don't think it actually had anything to do with Medicaid. Even before the Supreme Court ruled on the ACA (it was their ruling that made the Medicaid expansion optional in the first place), the bill allowed states to opt-out of various requirements (in particular, the exchanges that just made their debut a few days ago) at some point in the future, so long as they put in place an alternative that accomplishes the same goals. For awhile, there was talk about allowing that as soon as 2014, but I don't think it resulted in anything.

So, nope. For states that reject the Medicaid expansion, whatever gap in coverage was there will remain.

 

[watershed]

Well before I go, I say this. While I respect your opinion, I think it's incredibly naïve.

You say I should trust government because the people have control of it. But there's the whole other problem I have. I don't trust people. People are selfish by nature and often times don't know what is good for them. They vote on presidents based on populism and some of them can't even name the Speaker of the House, or how many Senators there are. Some are easily manipulated by propaganda. And of course, some of them believe that handing over more of their freedoms little bit by little bit is going to make life better, as if governments all over the world haven't done that. And I see no reason why America is more exceptional than them.

Keep in mind I was never saying I want Pepsi to run roads or McDonalds to cover Hurricane damage. But I believe in keeping government no bigger than is absolutely needed.

Anyways, good night.

Why does this always happen? You haven't responded to the substance of any of the replies to your posts. Why just run away with a "parting statement"?

Similarly, I wonder if "christiankid7" is going to post again after several posters attempted to clarify his stark misunderstanding of the ACA and how it works. I don't mean to call anyone out but in a lot of these politics and shutdown threads there are a lot of posters who will say something misinformed and/or full of negativity then never return when they are contradicted by facts. I get not responding to insults but sometimes it seems like running away in order to preserve their ideology.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Well before I go, I say this. While I respect your opinion, I think it's incredibly naïve.

You say I should trust government because the people have control of it. But there's the whole other problem I have. I don't trust people. People are selfish by nature and often times don't know what is good for them. They vote on presidents based on populism and some of them can't even name the Speaker of the House, or how many Senators there are. Some are easily manipulated by propaganda. And of course, some of them believe that handing over more of their freedoms little bit by little bit is going to make life better, as if governments all over the world haven't done that. And I see no reason why America is more exceptional than them.

Including yourself.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

No one's asking you to sign your life over to the government. Private healthcare is still around isn't it despite all this fear-mongering of government takeovers. In this case though a mixed system with as many options as possible is probably a good thing.

It's ridiculous man, stop believing whatever you want and just debate the plain facts.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I know, right? I've been immersed in Ancient Rome stuff lately, and it's made me think about this situation in rather dramatic terms. I don't see us actually defaulting on our debt, but if we were to do so, I don't think our country would ever be the same again. On the other hand, even if we manage to avoid going over that ledge, something has to change.

I propose that we bring duels back. Forget fillabusters or shutdowns. Can you imagine if we had something like Harry Reid and John Boehner having a gentleman's duel? It's perfect. It's got guns. It's got politics. We'd eat this shit up. Put it on pay per view. Give people a $15 discount for buying a 30 back of Corona.

I mean people forget that for as much pomp and circumstance that surrounds the congress, people were beating the shit out of each other with canes or challenging people to gunfights for looking at them funny less than 200 years ago.

We were basically like those silly Youtube videos of various foreign legislatures that suddenly erupted into WWF Royal Rumbles from the 1980s once.

This is all so passive aggressive.

 

[TastyOreoFriend]

I know what you're referring to, and I don't think it actually had anything to do with Medicaid. Even before the Supreme Court ruled on the ACA (it was their ruling that made the Medicaid expansion optional in the first place), the bill allowed states to opt-out of various requirements (in particular, the exchanges that just made their debut a few days ago) at some point in the future, so long as they put in place an alternative that accomplishes the same goals. For awhile, there was talk about allowing that as soon as 2014, but I don't think it resulted in anything.

So, nope. For states that reject the Medicaid expansion, whatever gap in coverage was there will remain.

Thanks, at least its good to know that I'll be screwed for the foreseeable future :/

I can't afford heatlhcare insurance as is as a college student. #NoJobsinFlorida

 

[makingmusic476]

Do you know what the rates and options available for private student loans look like or used to be like? The extremely low, fixed rates on your government loans, lengthy deferral options, and low monthly payments are better than any private loan you might get/have gotten in the past.

It's like he/she has no idea why they were federalized in the first place.

Now if only we could get the federal to go one step further, and have the money they spent on your education be paid back through general taxation, as opposed to the government acting like, as he said, a loan shark.

But I guess in soldier's world the Nordic model is a stealer of freedoms and a ruiner of lives, given the government is involved. =(

 

[pigeon]

I'm quite surprised that, as anti-corporation as a lot of people are these day, they would be so much more trusting of an entity run by lying sleazy politicians.

Corporations exist to make profit. Politicians exist to get reelected. One of those strategies is way more prone to rent-seeking than the other.