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US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised

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Everyone should have health care because no health care costs shittons to deal with. Everyone should have free healthcare but no one here will want that in terms of senators. So they do the next best thing, charge you for it.
 
Fucking idiot said:
You do know it's legal for a woman to kill her own unborn baby and that nearly 55 million have had their entire lives snuffed out. Is legalized murder worse than legalized slavery?
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Because of course it was going to turn to abortion.
 
Brian Griffin said:
I think I understand his thought process:

1. The ACA FORCES EVERYONE to buy something they don't want.
2. Because of this the government will be able to FORCE EVERYONE to do ANYTHING it wants.

I think he literally believes the ACA will be the catalyst for Hitler 2.0 and doesn't realize for even a nanosecond how astronomically far that leap in logic is.
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I've been in and out of concentration camps ever since my state forced me to buy car insurance.
 
spandexmonkey said:
I've been in and out of concentration camps ever since my state forced me to buy car insurance.
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You jest, but I seriously think that's not too far off from how these people think. It is true that the ACA forces you to buy something you might not want to buy and they are latching onto to that one thing, despite all the other things they are already forced to buy, and then extrapolating to infinity and beyond. This is a prime example of a complete lack of both basic and critical thinking skills.

I find it fascinating in those short moments that I don't find it horrifying.
 
It's all just a blatant power play by Republicans and conservatives. Not just the government shutdown but opposition to the ACA as a whole.They don't want government to work because government has historically been the great equalizer. Just like their namesake, conservatives are trying to "conserve" the status quo and make sure those who are powerful stay powerful and those who are weak, stay weak. Obamacare is the latest attempt at using "government" to rectify the ills of society and they oppose that. Other things that conservatives did/do oppose: Racial integration, gay marriage, unions, abortion (which I believe is more about keeping women culturally weak, rather than concern about human life), government regulation (so big businesses can do whatever they want), etc.
 
I just nearly got into a physical altercation with two know it all military types about healthcare. It's a good thing my wife was with me. I'm just at the point where I won't tolerate ignorant, destructive viewpoints and I'll do whatever I can to discredit them. They can all burn in hell for all I care, I won't stand idly by anymore as they ruin this country.
 
The part that absolutely kills me about these lunatics who think the ACA infringes on their liberties is the fact that 99% of them don't work in health care.

I've been working as a physician for the last four years- in residency, I worked in a county hospital and more than half of my patients had no real insurance. Do you think they didn't get insurance because it infringed on their liberties? The funniest thing is that the right-wing often accuses the left of being "ivory-tower" elitists. In this case, there is nobody that is stuck in a fantasy world than the GOP. The ridiculous comparison that is made between the ACA and tyranny is the ultimate example of that.

When these douchebags rolls into the ED without insurance and we have to subsidize their care, I wish we could make it law that a physician would get to lecture them about not getting health insurance. It would be magnificent.
 
NullPointer said:
What an odd thing to say with 2008 such a clear memory for most.
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I suspect the person you're quoting is trolling.

But I don't think your disagreement goes far enough. There's a whole heap of simplifications and practical concessions made that generally favor the big end of town that wouldn't happen in the presence of rational fully informed actors as consumers.

Like an hourly wage or salary that's generally shared by a set of workers. Or the outsourcing game in which things are made in poorer nations but profit is made in the richer ones. Or the entire anti-environmental / anti-regulation propaganda mill in which consumer money is directly used against their best interests. These are all things which should theoretically cause a rational actor with perfect knowledge who believes in capitalist theory to give the companies involved 0 money. But it doesn't turn out that way. What the market will bear (because the market is lacking knowledge and/or up against a wall) bears little resemblance to what the market should bear.

So its more like capitalism works* and always will**.

* Some modifications required
**As long as the appropriate modifications continue to be made and we continue to call the result capitalism.
 
Four_Chamber said:
The part that absolutely kills me about these lunatics who think the ACA infringes on their liberties is the fact that 99% of them don't work in health care.

I've been working as a physician for the last four years- in residency, I worked in a county hospital and more than half of my patients had no real insurance. Do you think they didn't get insurance because it infringed on their liberties? The funniest thing is that the right-wing often accuses the left of being "ivory-tower" elitists. In this case, there is nobody that is stuck in a fantasy world than the GOP. The ridiculous comparison that is made between the ACA and tyranny is the ultimate example of that.

When these douchebags rolls into the ED without insurance and we have to subsidize their care, I wish we could make it law that a physician would get to lecture them about not getting health insurance. It would be magnificent.
Click to expand...
You are letting your emotions get the best of you doctor. Making a blanket statement that anyone going to the ED without health insurance are douchebags is poor form. I wonder why people like you and another GAF physician, Ken Masters who also posted in this thread, become doctors in the first place with such poor and judgmental attitudes.

A career in the medical field is about treating people and getting them their proper care. Did you actually think that by becoming a medical doctor, that every patient you treat was going to be insured?
 
Four_Chamber said:
The part that absolutely kills me about these lunatics who think the ACA infringes on their liberties is the fact that 99% of them don't work in health care.

I've been working as a physician for the last four years- in residency, I worked in a county hospital and more than half of my patients had no real insurance. Do you think they didn't get insurance because it infringed on their liberties? The funniest thing is that the right-wing often accuses the left of being "ivory-tower" elitists. In this case, there is nobody that is stuck in a fantasy world than the GOP. The ridiculous comparison that is made between the ACA and tyranny is the ultimate example of that.

When these douchebags rolls into the ED without insurance and we have to subsidize their care, I wish we could make it law that a physician would get to lecture them about not getting health insurance. It would be magnificent.
Click to expand...

I think most of them think health care is like it's portrayed on House or ER or other medical dramas, where people get sick, then the hospital does a bajillion different things until they figure out what's wrong, and then the patient goes on their merry way. The end.

American medical dramas never touch upon the uniquely american variable of medical expenses, or how people actually decline recommended treatments because of cost concerns.


The way it's shown on health dramas where you have entire teams of doctors working together for the benefit of individual patients, and there's no money concerns involved for the patient, that's what it should be.
 
Cyan said:
Wait, seriously?
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I'm pretty sure I remember him saying he is a medical doctor working in the ED and that D.O.s weren't real doctors, and then other GAF physicians jumped all over him because of that statement.

Edit: Just looked in the Physician-age thread, first page, said he was attending med school in the fall of 2010. I guess he's still in school or in residency.
 
Man I'm almost jealous of some of the conservative nutjobs you Americans have on Facebook. I'm Canadian and only had one chick who blamed that school shooting last year(?) on Obama. Didn't give her shit and kept her around for more lunacy but no more came, and then I realized she was somehow on my friends list more than once and bailed out. I would love to give them a quick run through of common fucking sense.
 
Four_Chamber said:
I've been working as a physician for the last four years- in residency, I worked in a county hospital and more than half of my patients had no real insurance.
Click to expand...

I had to go to the emergency room in an urban city a few months ago. And when the doctor was considering admitting me the hospital, he asked if I had insurance. When I said I did, he acted surprised. I know the numbers about the uninsured, but it still really hits home when you can see the surprise on a doctor's face that the person he is treating has insurance. The presumption was clearly that I didn't.
 
huacst21 said:
You are letting your emotions get the best of you doctor. Making a blanket statement that anyone going to the ED without health insurance are douchebags is poor form. I wonder why people like you and another GAF physician, Ken Masters who also posted in this thread, become doctors in the first place with such poor and judgmental attitudes.

A career in the medical field is about treating people and getting them their proper care. Did you actually think that by becoming a medical doctor, that every patient you treat was going to be insured?
Click to expand...

As someone who knows tons of people in med school, there are a lot of folks you wouldn't want as doctors who will be practicing medicine in a few years.

This has nothing to do with Four_Chamber, just saying it as a statement.
 
huacst21 said:
You are letting your emotions get the best of you doctor. Making a blanket statement that anyone going to the ED without health insurance are douchebags is poor form. I wonder why people like you and another GAF physician, Ken Masters who also posted in this thread, become doctors in the first place with such poor and judgmental attitudes.

A career in the medical field is about treating people and getting them their proper care. Did you actually think that by becoming a medical doctor, that every patient you treat was going to be insured?
Click to expand...

You completely misread my post. I was actually making a statement about people who refuse health insurance (when they can afford it) because it "infringes" on their liberty. I hope its a small number of people, but I guarantee that they exist just based on what I've observed in the news.

Just for your reference, I focus on the care of the underserved in my clinic. Before you make outlandish claims about my life and my career, take a second and re-read my post.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/05/world-us-government_n_4047613.html

Sense Of Unease Growing Around The World As U.S. Government Looks Befuddled
By STEVEN R. HURST 10/05/13 12:06 AM ET EDT AP

-- An unmistakable sense of unease has been growing in capitals around the world as the U.S. government from afar looks increasingly befuddled — shirking from a military confrontation in Syria, stymied at home by a gridlocked Congress and in danger of defaulting on sovereign debt, which could plunge the world's financial system into chaos.

While each of the factors may be unrelated to the direct exercise of U.S. foreign policy, taken together they give some allies the sense that Washington is not as firm as it used to be in its resolve and its financial capacity, providing an opening for China or Russia to fill the void, an Asian foreign minister told a group of journalists in New York this week.

Concerns will only deepen now that President Barack Obama canceled travel this weekend to the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum in Bali and the East Asia Summit in Brunei. He pulled out of the gatherings to stay home to deal with the government shutdown and looming fears that Congress will block an increase in U.S. borrowing power, a move that could lead to a U.S. default.

The U.S. is still a pillar of defense for places in Asia like Taiwan and South Korea, providing a vital security umbrella against China. It also still has strong allies in the Middle East, including Israel and the Gulf Arab states arrayed against al-Qaida and Iran.

But in interviews with academics, government leaders and diplomats, faith that the U.S. will always be there is fraying more than a little.

"The paralysis of the American government, where a rump in Congress is holding the whole place to ransom, doesn't really jibe with the notion of the United States as a global leader," said Michael McKinley, an expert on global relations at the Australian National University.

The political turbulence in Washington and potential economic bombshells still to come over the U.S. government shutdown and a possible debt default this month have sent shivers through Europe. The head of the European Central Bank, Mario Draghi, worried about the continent's rebound from the 2008 economic downturn.

"We view this recovery as weak, as fragile, as uneven," Draghi said at a news conference.

Germany's influential newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung bemoaned the U.S. political chaos.

"At the moment, Washington is fighting over the budget and nobody knows if the country will still be solvent in three weeks. What is clear, though, is that America is already politically bankrupt," it said.

Obama finds himself at the nexus of a government in chaos at home and a wave of foreign policy challenges.

He has been battered by the upheaval in the Middle East from the Arab Spring revolts after managing to extricate the U.S. from its long, brutal and largely failed attempt to establish democracy in Iraq. He is also drawing down U.S. forces from a more than decade-long war in Afghanistan with no real victory in sight. He leads a country whose people have no interest in taking any more military action abroad.

As Europe worries about economics, Asian allies watch in some confusion about what the U.S. is up to with its promise to rebalance military forces and diplomacy in the face of an increasingly robust China.

Global concerns about U.S. policy came to a head with Obama's handling of the civil war in Syria and the alleged use of chemical weapons by the regime of President Bashar Assad. But, in fact, the worries go far deeper.

"I think there are a lot of broader concerns about the United States. They aren't triggered simply by Syria. The reaction the United States had from the start to events in Egypt created a great deal of concern among the Gulf and the Arab states," said Anthony Cordesman, a military affairs specialist at the Center for International Studies.

Kings and princes throughout the Persian Gulf were deeply unsettled when Washington turned its back on Egypt's long-time dictator and U.S. ally Hosni Mubarak during the 2011 uprising in the largest Arab country.

Now, Arab allies in the Gulf voice dismay over the rapid policy redirection from Obama over Syria, where rebel factions have critical money and weapons channels from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Gulf states. It has stirred a rare public dispute with Washington, whose differences with Gulf allies are often worked out behind closed doors. Last month, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal warned that the renewed emphasis on diplomacy with Assad would allow the Syrian president to "impose more killing."

After saying Assad must be removed from power and then threatening military strikes over the regime's alleged chemical weapons attack, the U.S. is now working with Russia and the U.N. to collect and destroy Damascus' chemical weapons stockpile. That assures Assad will remain in power for now and perhaps the long term.

Danny Yatom, a former director of Israel's Mossad intelligence service, said the U.S. handling of the Syrian crisis and its decision not to attack after declaring red lines on chemical weapons has hurt Washington's credibility.

"I think in the eyes of the Syrians and the Iranians, and the rivals of the United States, it was a signal of weakness, and credibility was deteriorated," he said.

The Syrian rebels, who were promised U.S. arms, say they feel deserted by the Americans, adding that they have lost faith and respect for Obama.

The White House contends that its threat of a military strike against Assad was what caused the regime to change course and agree to plan reached by Moscow and Washington to hand its chemical weapons over to international inspectors for destruction. That's a far better outcome than resorting to military action, Obama administration officials insist.

Gulf rulers also have grown suddenly uneasy over the U.S. outreach to their regional rival Iran.

Bahrain Foreign Minister Sheik Khalid bin Ahmed Al Khalifa said Gulf states "must be in the picture" on any attempts by the U.S. and Iran to open sustained dialogue or reach settlement over Tehran's nuclear program. He was quoted Tuesday by the London-based Al Hayat newspaper as saying Secretary of State John Kerry has promised to consult with his Gulf "friends" on any significant policy shifts over Iran — a message that suggested Gulf states are worried about being left on the sidelines in potentially history-shaping developments in their region.

In response to the new U.S. opening to Iran to deal with its suspected nuclear weapons program, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the U.N. General Assembly that his country remained ready to act alone to prevent Tehran from building a bomb. He indicated a willingness to allow some time for further diplomacy but not much. And he excoriated new Iranian President Hassan Rouhani as a "wolf in sheep's clothing."

Kerry defended the engagement effort, saying the U.S. would not be played for "suckers" by Iran. Tehran insists its nuclear program is for peaceful energy production, while the U.S. and other countries suspect it is aimed at achieving atomic weapons capability.

McKinley, the Australian expert, said Syria and the U.S. budget crisis have shaken Australians' faith in their alliance with Washington.

"It means that those who rely on the alliance as the cornerstone of all Australian foreign policy and particularly security policy are less certain — it's created an element of uncertainty in their calculations," he said.

Running against the tide of concern, leaders in the Philippines are banking on its most important ally to protect it from China's assertive claims in the South China Sea. Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin said Manila still views the U.S. as a dependable ally despite the many challenges it is facing.

"We should understand that all nations face some kind of problems, but in terms of our relationship with the United States, she continues to be there when we need her," Gazmin said.

"There's no change in our feelings," he said. "Our strategic relationship with the U.S. continues to be healthy. They remain a reliable ally."

But as Cordesman said, "The rhetoric of diplomacy is just wonderful but it almost never describes the reality."

That reality worldwide, he said, "is a real concern about where is the U.S. going. There is a question of trust. And I think there is an increasing feeling that the United States is pulling back, and its internal politics are more isolationist so that they can't necessarily trust what U.S. officials say, even if the officials mean it."
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And so, the world laughs at us.

The Australian guy is right. The greatest nation in the world (arguably) would not allow 30-40 people to halt the entire political process, taking us potentially to the very brink of collapse, over health care funding.
 
Four_Chamber said:
The part that absolutely kills me about these lunatics who think the ACA infringes on their liberties is the fact that 99% of them don't work in health care.

I've been working as a physician for the last four years- in residency, I worked in a county hospital and more than half of my patients had no real insurance. Do you think they didn't get insurance because it infringed on their liberties? The funniest thing is that the right-wing often accuses the left of being "ivory-tower" elitists. In this case, there is nobody that is stuck in a fantasy world than the GOP. The ridiculous comparison that is made between the ACA and tyranny is the ultimate example of that.

When these douchebags rolls into the ED without insurance and we have to subsidize their care, I wish we could make it law that a physician would get to lecture them about not getting health insurance. It would be magnificent.
Click to expand...

The part about this that is so scary is most people against the ACA don't know anything about it. I'm not surprised that the party that is anti science doesn't want to get healthcare fixed. They're choosing their own facts now to justify things and then screaming "Tyranny!" Because its the rallying cry for the other stupid mother fuckers that believe the same shit they do.
 
Hey, Australia has single payer health care (and private health insurance as an option on top, including one run by the government (at least for now)), so clearly we're all socialists and not to be trusted.
 
this global economy stuff is no fun. a big player 5,000 miles away is tanking and we can't find a way to benefit from it?

bring back imperialism.
 
SteveWinwood said:
As someone who knows tons of people in med school, there are a lot of folks you wouldn't want as doctors who will be practicing medicine in a few years.

This has nothing to do with Four_Chamber, just saying it as a statement.
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As someone in med school, I can attest to the fact that the vast majority of my peers talk more about how much money they'll make than helping people. Very frustrating.
 
SmokeMaxX said:
As someone in med school, I can attest to the fact that the vast majority of my peers talk more about how much money they'll make than helping people. Very frustrating.
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It's no secret many want to go to med school to make big buck. I don't mind that personally and I don't think that would would alter medicare efficacy personally. The issue is that specialists are paid way more, so the lack of incentives to become an internist and other issues has caused a PCP shortage.
 
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
House Republicans will vote today to give back pay to furloughed workers.
Good news.
The GOP delivers again. Now let's get Obama to the table guys.
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In other words, GOP takes a huge steaming pile of dump on the floor, and then picks up the nastiest bit from it and throws it away. And for that somehow we should clap them? This is utterly ridiculous.
 
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