Info: Low Latency is important but don't forget 4:4:4 Chroma! (HDTV gaming)

So now I gotta choose between full screen auto motion plus or the 4:4:4 thing and minimal input lag.

Better see what I need on a game by game basis.
 
Otakumegane said:
So now I gotta choose between full screen auto motion plus or the 4:4:4 thing and minimal input lag.

Better see what I need on a game by game basis.
Click to expand...

it's not motion plus. made up nonsense at the cost of sharp images and latency. you'd be crazy to ever choose your TVs motion smoothing option for gaming.
 
Alo81 said:
For those who would like to test their display, open up this image and make sure it's displaying full size.

tint-blue-rgb-1080p.png


If the words "Red" and/or "Magenta" don't see as sharp as the rest of the words on the other colors, then your display most probably does not have 4:4:4 enabled/possible.
Click to expand...

How do you mean "as sharp"? As easy to read?

My Catalyst Control Center tells me "This Display is supports more than one pixel format. Certain formats are better optimized for specific types of content than others."

It lets me choose between different types 4:4:4 (Ycbcr, and RGB limited/full) and one 4:2:2 option. So according to CCC my TV supports it. I wonder if that's accurate.
 
televator said:
How do you mean "as sharp"? As easy to read?

My Catalyst Control Center tells me "This Display is supports more than one pixel format. Certain formats are better optimized for specific types of content than others."

It lets me choose between different types 4:4:4 (Ycbcr, and RGB limited/full) and one 4:2:2 option. So according to CCC my TV supports it. I wonder if that's accurate.
Click to expand...

Pick the 4:2:2 mode and see if it looks notably worse than 4:4:4. It should.
 
The only issue I have with 4:4:4 is that on my 2009 bravia it seems to make things overly dark. I have all processing off anyway since I don't like the image it produces, but I have always found it odd that it does this.

It happens when I select it on the 360 and PC (labeled Full RGB).

I know it is because that chroma setting gives you the full dynamic range (0-255), but my brightness, gamma and contrast settings remain unchanged. Is this to be expected?

Regardless, I always use it anyway, colours seem much richer without being overblown, something which makes the game mode on my TV unbearable.
 
plagiarize said:
My Sony from a year or two ago passes these tests with flying colours. Not to my surprise. 1080p output from my PC has always looked pixel perfect.

My graphics card allows me to output YCbCr 4:4:4 and RGB Full 4:4:4. I've been using YCbCr and can't see a difference between the two on my TV. Should I favor one over another? Is there a test pattern that can highlight differences?
Click to expand...

I believe rgb full(0-255) is better if you are primarily using the display to play videogames. ycbcr is a video color format (16-235)(-255) with super white enabled. I remember reading that ycbcr even comes from rgb itself, so when i think rgb 0-255 i think of an uncompressed signal. Just my 2 cents, anyone feel free to correct.
 
Wishmaster92 said:
I believe rgb full(0-255) is better if you are primarily using the display to play videogames. ycbcr is a video color format (16-235)(-255) with super white enabled. I remember reading that ycbcr even comes from rgb itself, so when i think rgb 0-255 i think of an uncompressed signal. Just my 2 cents, anyone feel free to correct.
Click to expand...

well, when I use it with my PC I'm primarily playing games on it, yes. RGB Full it is then.
 
plagiarize said:
it's not motion plus. made up nonsense at the cost of sharp images and latency. you'd be crazy to ever choose your TVs motion smoothing option for gaming.
Click to expand...

Well, at least for Rayman legends it seems better to turn it on. It does seem to make the images flow better to a degree.

Don't know if Zelda and the like would benefit at all though.
 
Otakumegane said:
Well, at least for Rayman legends it seems better to turn it on. It does seem to make the images flow better to a degree.

Don't know if Zelda and the like would benefit at all though.
Click to expand...

Wait, would my WiiU (the only console I've tested with this just now) not really benefit from setting the input name to PC considering it has limited RGB?
 
i've always thought my PC output on my 50" panny looked a little "less" than on my monitors. guess this is the reason.

now i know what the look for in an upgrade.
 
plagiarize said:
My Sony from a year or two ago passes these tests with flying colours. Not to my surprise. 1080p output from my PC has always looked pixel perfect.

My graphics card allows me to output YCbCr 4:4:4 and RGB Full 4:4:4. I've been using YCbCr and can't see a difference between the two on my TV. Should I favor one over another? Is there a test pattern that can highlight differences?
Click to expand...

On 4:3 content, I notice lighter than black bars on YCbCr and pure black on RGB Full
 
Otakumegane said:
Well, at least for Rayman legends it seems better to turn it on. It does seem to make the images flow better to a degree.

Don't know if Zelda and the like would benefit at all though.
Click to expand...

Legends is already 60 fps. I'm not sure why you'd want to add latency in order to add in inbetween frames to a game that's already running at as closed to a locked 60 fps as your going to get..
 
I asked before on GAF but didn't get an answer. But does 10 bit colour depth have any application in gaming? My monitor supports it but sadly my video card doesn't. Seems to be limited to only the FireGL and Quadro cards. I figured even if I did get one of those cards (or flash the drivers) it wouldn't work in games anyway.
 
dante81 said:
On my HDTV I set it to RGB Full, then on AMD Catalyst I check the RGB 4:4:4--The YCbCr 4:4:4 produces grey bars on 4:3 content. Anyway, am I doing it right?
Click to expand...

Yes you are....on my Panasonic Plasma..i have it set just like you do. I also notice a big difference ....OP great post!
 
ccc says my tv supports the following:

ycbcr 4:4:4
rgb 4:4:4 (limited rgb)
rgb 4:4:4 (full rgb)

when looking at my samsung hlt5087s, it has the following listed under color gamut:

wide: displays the native color gamut of the panel device.
normal: normal color gamut offers flat and natural color tone.
srgb supports color tone of srgb format.

so which color gamut do i pick for my hdtv if i want to use rgbb 4:4:4 (full rgb)
 
You should also set your console to match your TV's color range when possible.

xbox360_colorspace.png


If your set can do 4:4:4, you probably want to pick RGB. If it can't, you want one of the YCbCr settings.

If you pick the wrong setting for your display, you might get white or black crush and some skewed colors:
colortest_xbox360_rgb_expanded_xcapture1.png
Click to expand...
But if you pick the appropriate setting, you should have properly contrasted and balanced colors:
colortest_xbox360_ycbcr601_xcapture1.png
Click to expand...
 
Otakumegane said:
http://i.picpar.com/P7p.gif

From Rayman Legends Demo OT. I find it turned on a lot clearer as well.
Click to expand...

that makes sense. I just tested it out myself. The added controller latency and loss of definition on static objects (presumably from this 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 thing, although it could be because my other 'scenes' aren't as well calibrated as my game mode is) for me isn't worth the gains.

I see why it's a matter of opinion now though, rather than just something no one should want to do. Thanks for the info.
 
Goldenhen said:
So on my Samsung Plasma 2012 model I should turn on game mode?
Click to expand...

On samsung tv's you need to change the name of the source to PC.

Not sure about if this works with all the hdmi ports or only on the hdmi labeled as PC on the back of the tv, but on that port works tested on my 2013 samsung ue f 5300.
 
Just looked it up and the set I plan on buying next has 4:4:4. I'm usually decently up on displays but hadn't heard of this before and my current set fails all of the test patterns. That plus 120Hz will be a massive improvement. Thanks for the info.
 
Dennis said:
Here is TLoU running on a PC monitor instead of a HDTV





Click to expand...
I find games look better on a high end TV set than a PC monitor.

You should see TLOU on my Panny plasma. The TV set scales the image so well the image quality looks like 1080p. I don't know what sorcery or magic Panasonic put in their plasma TVs, but it's glorious.
 
TV input as GAME:
hpuppID.jpg



TV input as PC:
4Pt1zLc.jpg



What the hell have I been playing.? LOL
It also seemed to lower my latentacy by 10-16ms (used rock band blitz)
 
If you want to play in 4:4:4 on your HDTV and it has a PC Mode then make sure you enabled RGB Full Range on your PS3, however if you use it for Bluray as much as gaming, i'd recommend playing in Game Mode on your TV with RGB Limited - Game mode will look fine for Bluray playback assuming you have Brightness and Contrast set correctly on your TV, I don't recommend using the TV's post-processing anyway for Bluray as you are not limited for Bitrate so should have a great image incoming, and most TV's with a 4:4:4 PC Mode option should support 24hz pulldown for Bluray playback in Game Mode.
 
gooner4life_uk said:
If you want to play in 4:4:4 on your HDTV and it has a PC Mode then make sure you enabled RGB Full Range on your PS3, however if you use it for Bluray as much as gaming, i'd recommend playing in Game Mode on your TV with RGB Limited - Game mode will look fine for Bluray playback assuming you have Brightness and Contrast set correctly on your TV, I don't recommend using the TV's post-processing anyway for Bluray as you are not limited for Bitrate so should have a great image incoming, and most TV's with a 4:4:4 PC Mode option should support 24hz pulldown for Bluray playback in Game Mode.
Click to expand...

My TV (LG 42LE7300 S-IPS panel) has a little particularity about this: when PS3 is in PC mode, the TV automatically sets itself in Full RGB mode, and when i launch a Blu-ray (sets in Y'CbCr in PS3 Video menu) the TV automatically sets itself in Low Black level... I don't have to change any setting. Classy.

I don't have tested the 4:4:4 thing yet (and i suppose it won't be good...) and input lag is noticeable even in PC mode, though.

(Game mode is shit... Cold colour temp, too much backlight, saturated colours everywhere)
 
According to my eyes. My Panny Viera is failing the test with the cyan and red alternating lines. CCC tells me 4:4:4 is supported, I have the screen set to Game (as I always have) and they're conected via the proprietary DVI -> HDMI dongle provided by AMD. Yes, it's proprietary. It's a DVI-I connector that still manages to pass a full 1080p signal + uncompressed 7.1 audio -- which, to my knowledge, is not part of the standard DVI-I spec. However the PC is also passing through my Onkyo receiver I can't imagine that's doing any voodoo to the video signal...

Also, PC mode seems dedicated strictly for the 15 pin RGB input that my Dreamcast usually occupies...
 
Rebel Leader said:
TV input as GAME:
hpuppID.jpg



TV input as PC:
4Pt1zLc.jpg



What the hell have I been playing.? LOL
It also seemed to lower my latentacy by 10-16ms (used rock band blitz)
Click to expand...

That is not strictly 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. The overwhelming majority (98%) of the difference you see there is attributed to image processing, which PC mode forces off. I hope people don't get carried away with this as White Balance, Contrast Ratio, Black Level, Color Accuracy, Gamma are all MUCH MUCH MUCH more important than Chroma. There is a reason it has been largely ignored up to this point, and that's because in the absence of a nearly perfect TV in every other respect, it's low priority in improving overall image quality. Specifically, 4:2:2 PDP will still blow away a 4:4:4 LCD in absolute PQ--by an incredibly wide margin.
 
Thanks to the OP for posting this thread. Led me to investigate the settings on my LG LCD TV which I have in my study along with my consoles on PC.

Previously I had the PC set to PC (naturally) and the PS3/X360 both set to the GAME input. I read around and discovered my TV will do 4:4:4 if set to PC mode. So I made the change for both consoles and there really is a lot of difference.

I don't know whether it's the 4:4:4 or other image processing disappearing (I tend to use an Expert setting though with most processing options off anyway) but it looks so much better now. Looked good before, now looks fabulous.

So thanks for posting this. Am now all set up for the arrival of two other consoles next month. :)
 
Is this only for pc's? The AVS forums talk about pc benefits only. My tv has a pc mode but I never used it because I have it plugged with HDMI, I never had a picture problem. Is this only functional in pc mode?
 
Korezo said:
Is this only for pc's? The AVS forums talk about pc benefits only. My tv has a pc mode but I never used it because I have it plugged with HDMI, I never had a picture problem. Is this only functional in pc mode?
Click to expand...

Nope, ps3 supports it and probably the 360 does too.
 
Good lord, so that's the reason why red always looked fuzzy when I played on my TV. Just switched the hdmi 3 input to PC and what a fucking world of difference. 16 months with this TV and thanks the this thread I am now using it properly. Love gaf.
 
Reallink said:
That is not strictly 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. The overwhelming majority (98%) of the difference you see there is attributed to image processing, which PC mode forces off. I hope people don't get carried away with this as White Balance, Contrast Ratio, Black Level, Color Accuracy, Gamma are all MUCH MUCH MUCH more important than Chroma. There is a reason it has been largely ignored up to this point, and that's because in the absence of a nearly perfect TV in every other respect, it's low priority in improving overall image quality. Specifically, 4:2:2 PDP will still blow away a 4:4:4 LCD in absolute PQ--by an incredibly wide margin.
Click to expand...

Messing with that now.
 
Guess my Panny is too old then. Despite what CCC is telling me, I see no improvement upon close inspection. It's a shame that PC mode is reserved for the RGB input and not assignable to HDMI input.

Welp... that'll push me to upgrade sooner now.
 
Reallink said:
That is not strictly 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. The overwhelming majority (98%) of the difference you see there is attributed to image processing, which PC mode forces off. I hope people don't get carried away with this as White Balance, Contrast Ratio, Black Level, Color Accuracy, Gamma are all MUCH MUCH MUCH more important than Chroma. There is a reason it has been largely ignored up to this point, and that's because in the absence of a nearly perfect TV in every other respect, it's low priority in improving overall image quality. Specifically, 4:2:2 PDP will still blow away a 4:4:4 LCD in absolute PQ--by an incredibly wide margin.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my TV has 4:4:4 Chroma in PC mode, but PC mode looks like shit.
I think my "calibrated" tv looks good enough, at least the colors aren't off and the image isn't over-sharpened.
 
W!CKED said:
I have this TV. It has the lowest input lag of all TVs on the market according to HDTVtest and it does support 4:4:4 chroma.

This TV is just perfect for gaming. The difference compared to my old LG is like night and day. I just played through Killzone 2 in the last days and aiming was super easy. I always prefered to play shooters on PC because of mouse and keyboard, but when I bought this TV I realized that the input lag of the screen is the problem and not the controller. Despite my deep-running PC roots I really enjoy playing games with aiming mechanics with a gamepad on this TV. The image quality is great, too. It's much, much better than my old 2009 LG 37LH7020. Even upscaled 720p games look very nice. It's much better than you would expect from a TV with this price tag.

If you're looking for a decent gaming TV then buy this thing. I combined it with a Yamaha YAS 101 soundbar because the sound is crap, but that's a problem that pretty much every modern-day TV has.
Click to expand...
Damn, that TV looks great. I would love to upgrade although I've got tons of other things to buy first. How is the screen? Backlight bleed? Clouding? Also is it a glossy screen or a matte screen?
 
apparantly my ancient Sony 46HX803 supports 4:4:4 in game mode. Does PS3 support that natively and is there a setting I need to enable for that?
 
I started using my 46HX820 more then my 5020fd recently....beside the black I find my Bravia better for gaming
 
I put the image on a USB memory.

Turn on PS3, open the image. Tried to read the image and Red and Magenta was unreadable.

Choose PC mode in my LG TV, and finally I can read Red and Magenta.

So I load GTA V and... it looks like shit. All games looks like shit in PC mode.

:(
 
Great thread. After knocking on 3 years, I only found out I wasn't enabling 4:4:4 correctly on my telly until a few weeks ago. Need to label the HDMI input as PC but I'd never bothered labelling it as anything as all sources are routed through my AVR into the single HDMI socket. One thing that immediately stood out was the crispness of the coloured boxes of your PSN friends on the PS3. Without 4:4;4, the white text in certain coloured boxes is horribly blurry. With 4:4:4 input reproduced correctly, the text is perfectly crisp.
 
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