Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS Thread 2: Where Pilotwings is apparently Minecraft

RealDeadOne said:
How does Smash GAF feel about characters being cut, but parts of their moves et being incorporated into a new character?

For example most of Ike and Roy's moves could be used to make Chrom's moveset.
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This is pretty much what happened with Mewtwo and Lucas. Up Smash, Down smash and Neutral air all basically came from Mewtwo. I still feel the sting.
 
Sakurai said in a couple of interviews that he isn't going to outright cut any of Brawl's characters -- he's going to add as many of them as possible in the time he has. And since we've already seen Toon Link, a character widely regarded as one of Brawl's most expendable, I don't think we should start worrying yet. The game doesn't come out for another year and we already know Brawl's least unique character is returning. That should bode well for the roster.
 
EatChildren said:
That's kind of what I mean. We don't know the team size, we don't know their roster plans, and we don't know the budget. It's worth keeping in mind they're making two games. Roster stays the same, but stage selection does not.
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No one know what Sakurai had in his mind for Roster plans because no one saw Wii Fit Trainer coming.

I may have no experience in developing the games but I am going to take a shot at this. I'm pretty sure that they would have a separate team for 3DS that would work on downsizing characters and alternating their colors, and working on stages at same time right?

Is it normal to assume that Iwata and Nintendo company usually gave a huge budget for Smash series since it draw a lot of money and customers to the system. Yeah, I could say that SSB series are one of system seller games. I meant they have enough budget to do 39 characters, all items, SSE (which supposedly took 70% of the production time), trophies, stickers, single and offline multiplayer modes and online mode. I would like to point out that they hired Tri-Ace to helping them out with Brawl and they outsourced some of stuffs to other workers as well, so I wouldn't be surprised that their budget might be bigger than Brawl's budget due to their deal with Namco-Bandai.

I really hope that Namco-Bandai and Nintendo's teams are bigger and effective than other teams were for Brawl. I heard that Brawl's teams weren't effective because Sakurai was not doing very well with dealing with Brawl production, budget, etc and burned more money than he should have. Also I don't have any proof to prove that but I remembered that I read that statements in threads where they announced that Sakurai closed Project Sora.

The HD dev cost seems like one of those things that would hurt stages more than characters, to me anyway. I'm of the opinion that as good as Smash 4's characters look, they don't look a million light years away from Brawl's, which already looked fucking amazing. Indeed going 1080p @ 60fps holds back just how much work you need to put into individual assets. Stages, too. Like Melee and Brawl, I expect Smash 4 to make game-specific themed stages from previous generations to use assets almost identical to that game, as a homage.
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I'm pretty sure that they are turning in Namco-Bandai to helping them out with HD but I think that they are turning in Namco-Bandai because they have more experiences with fighting game.
 
Fandangox said:
But Ness was still in Brawl.
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Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

The up smash, down smash, and N air are extremely different from Ness to Lucas. Though these same moves are extremely similar when comparing Mewtwo and Lucas. Lucas inherited these moves for sure. It's not a full inheritance but those were Mewtwo's moves for sure.
 
RealDeadOne said:
How does Smash GAF feel about characters being cut, but parts of their moves et being incorporated into a new character?

For example most of Ike and Roy's moves could be used to make Chrom's moveset.
Click to expand...

That would be the worst thing ever.

Does anyone really want Chrom being a light Ike, who can't hit someone like they got smacked by a dump truck?

Or have him with the inability to perform Roy's PH1R3! moves with his glowing stick of destiny?
 
RomanceDawn said:
Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

The up smash, down smash, and N air are extremely different from Ness to Lucas. Though these same moves are extremely similar when comparing Mewtwo and Lucas. Lucas inherited these moves for sure. It's not a full inheritance but those were Mewtwo's moves for sure.
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I was meaning to say that characters would be cut and their movesets moved over to new characters so that they could still return in spirit
 
RomanceDawn said:
Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

The up smash, down smash, and N air are extremely different from Ness to Lucas. Though these same moves are extremely similar when comparing Mewtwo and Lucas. Lucas inherited these moves for sure. It's not a full inheritance but those were Mewtwo's moves for sure.
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But the point of that post was how we felt about a character not returning but part of his moveset being on a new character (Like Mewtwo's Neutral B special being Similar to Lucario's)

So that point is rendered moot when both Ness and Lucas are in the same game.
 
RomanceDawn said:
Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

The up smash, down smash, and N air are extremely different from Ness to Lucas. Though these same moves are extremely similar when comparing Mewtwo and Lucas. Lucas inherited these moves for sure. It's not a full inheritance but those were Mewtwo's moves for sure.
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I'm not seeing it. They're vaguely, superficially similar, but no, I don't think there was a conscious decision to give Mewtwo's attacks to Lucas. Obviously two psychic characters would have a few moves that look kind of alike.
 
RealDeadOne said:
I was meaning to say that characters would be cut and their movesets moved over to new characters so that they could still return in spirit
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Yeah I understand and in my point of view this basically happened. I feel like 5 of Mewtwo's moves were split between 2 characters(Lucas and Lucario) but it still makes me sad Mewtwo himself was left out. I'd rather it didn't happen and just add a new clone with different properties.

@ Ryce
Lucas's moves certainly pack more of a punch but the electrical neutral air that functions exactly alike, the down Smash that sends a blast in one downward angle and the up smash that somewhat draws a character in before launching them scream Mewtwo to me. There are other examples of characters in brawl who share the same animations, especially Wolf, and not with other Star Fox characters either.
 
Save 'N Quit said:
That would be the worst thing ever.

Does anyone really want Chrom being a light Ike, who can't hit someone like they got smacked by a dump truck?

Or have him with the inability to perform Roy's PH1R3! moves with his glowing stick of destiny?
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Seriously. Hitting someone with Ike's Side Smash is ridiculously satisfying. If Ike does get replaced, - which seems very likely - his replacement has to be able to match his power. I mean, he swings a two-handed sword with one hand.
 
EatChildren said:
But that doesn't mean the policy of remixing a roster isn't unusual for the genre, nor is it necessary something that should be avoided. I don't think it's fair to expect the same roster to return over and over again with the only changes simply expanding it. New games do not make the old games obsolete, and I don't think it's right to view Smash as singular title routinely evolving and expanding. Not only is that boring, but it's an unfair pressure to place on the developers, when the reality is they're not going to be able to continue expanding the roster forever without hitting absurd development costs.

It's not even Smash in question here, it's more or less every single franchise that have ever existed. Items are removed and replaced in The Legend of Zelda. The pool of power-ups in Super Mario Bros. constantly changers. Every fighting game series has a mixed roster from title to title. And even though working with established characters from Smash should be less work than a new character, it's still work. Work that may, should the developers feel it, be better spent on establishing someone new.

End of the day, at least for me, part of the excitement of a Smash game is not playing that character I loved a game or two ago all over again as I have done so before. It's trying new characters and seeing what they'll bring to the formula. Captain Falcon is one of my favourite characters in the roster, but playing as him in Brawl still evoked similar feelings to playing as him in Melee and 64 (timings, speed, and damage aside). Meanwhile playing as Snake, Metal Knight, Pokemon Trainer, and Pit was a totally refreshing experience. Same goes for playing Peach, Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, and Mewtwo in Melee. And this is what I'm excited about for Wii Fit Trainer and Villager.

Maybe Sakurai and co have a different policy, but I don't know. Brawl cut Roy, Pichu, Mewtwo, and Dr. Mario. Granted, Dr Mario and Pichu were clones, Roy to a smaller degree, and Mewtwo the only totally unique moveset. But still, it would not surprise me to see a small portion of the roster cut for Smash 4, or at the very least massive redesigns made to some clones. Do we really need Fox, Falco, and Wolf to return at the expense of a new character? I love playing as Falco, but I've played him for three games, and if cutting Falco and Wolf to keep Fox as the only one with that moveset rewards with two totally new characters, I'd take it.

Toon Link and Luigi kind of throw a spanner in the "cut clones" theory. Luigi less so.
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I see what you're saying, but I just don't agree with the idea of cutting characters (unless they're clones). I see adding more characters as the way to go. Sakurai already mentioned that he doesn't want to make people upset with cuts due to the attachment people have with the characters.

New characters are the most exciting thing to play as, but you don't want to lose your main character or something like that.

---

Personally, I hope that in a future Smash, once they feel they have enough characters, they try and give each character two movesets or something. It would bring a new freshness to the series. It doesn't have to be a complete revamp, just give each character a choice of 2 types of special moves or something. Like get a special move that allows Mario/Toon Link to use their hammer. Allow Samus to use a different beam. Let DK roll, let Luigi use his vacuum, and etc.

I know that seems like a big request, but I think it will be an interesting thing to do.
 
RomanceDawn said:
Yeah I understand and in my point of view this basically happened. I feel like 5 of Mewtwo's moves were split between 2 characters(Lucas and Lucario) but it still makes me sad Mewtwo himself was left out. I'd rather it didn't happen and just add a new clone with different properties.
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Oh I see what you mean, but I can't really see any of Mewtwo's moves in Lucas (Nor Lucario for that matter, except for their Neutral B)
 
Fandangox said:
Oh I see what you mean, but I can't really see any of Mewtwo's moves in Lucas (Nor Lucario for that matter, except for their Neutral B)
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Which Lucario would have regardless of Mewtwo.

yAzsFqV.jpg
 
Fandangox said:
Oh I see what you mean, but I can't really see any of Mewtwo's moves in Lucas (Nor Lucario for that matter, except for their Neutral B)
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I really shouldn't include Lucario's aura sphere or extreme speed because they are pretty different from Mewtwo's Shadow Ball and Teleport. I normally argue against Lucario being a Mewtwo clone but those moves I would define as spiritual successors.
 
SuperSah said:
Very true point, I see what you mean. In that case, I sure hope they do!



Wasn't the original reason for bringing Smash to 3DS was because they could no longer find ways to evolve it on home console? They felt like the portable game was the only way forward, but upon finding technical issues, they decided the Wii U game was needed (also because they were told to make it for Wii U).

So technically, it is making the brand stronger because it's allowing them to push the boat out, rather than ditch the brand.
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Moving it to a platform weaker then the home console is not gonna make the brand evolve, they wanted to make it for the 3DS but they didnt say all that. They wanted to make another smash and sakurai would have also like to put it on the 3DS since it was strong enough then somebody said "why not both?" and this is the result.
 
Iwata asked Sakurai to direct the new Smash game and asked him what platform should it be put on, 3DS or Wii U. (I think) Sakurai said both. That's that.
 
RomanceDawn said:
I really shouldn't include Lucario's aura sphere or extreme speed because they are pretty different from Mewtwo's Shadow Ball and Teleport. I normally argue against Lucario being a Mewtwo clone but those moves I would define as spiritual successors.
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Extremespeed is literally nothing like Teleport. The only thing they have in common is that they do no damage. They have completely different animations and are not controlled in even remotely similar fashions outside of being directable up-special recoveries, which is hardly unique to either of them. Zelda's Farore's Wind has more in common with Teleport than Extremespeed does. Extremespeed and Teleport have less in common than Link's Spin Attack and Samus's Screw Attack.
 
DaBoss said:
Iwata asked Sakurai to direct the new Smash game and asked him what platform should it be put on, 3DS or Wii U. (I think) Sakurai said both. That's that.
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Yes, I think that's how it went. I wonder if it's smart move or not. We'll see what Sakurai would say after he completed the works.
 
Fandangox said:
I know, but that doesn't really change the fact that it was a previous move used by a character that didn't return, which is the whole point of the current discussion.
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And? Aura Sphere is Lucario's trade mark move, just because it is some ball that is shot out of its hand doesn't mean it is a move taken from Mewtwo.

All evidence points towards Mewtwo being planned on being in the game, but time was the main constraint, thus lead it to being cut.
 
Fandangox said:
I know, but that doesn't really change the fact that it was a previous move used by a character that didn't return, which is the whole point of the current discussion.
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Not for nothing the but.

1) this is pokemon, so pokemon using similar moves isn't unheard of.

2) Lucario's signature move in most of his media is the aura sphere. So is even really using mewtwo's move?
 
DaBoss said:
And? Aura Sphere is Lucario's trade mark move, just because it is some ball that is shot out of its hand doesn't mean it is a move taken from Mewtwo.

All evidence points towards Mewtwo being planned on being in the game, but time was the main constraint, thus lead it to being cut.
Click to expand...

Village said:
Not for nothing the but.

1) this is pokemon, so pokemon using similar moves isn't unheard of.

2) Lucario's signature move in most of his media is the aura sphere. So is even really using mewtwo's move?
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It doesn't really matter why the move was there. I am nor arguing that it was the developers that put it as a replacement move from Mewtwo (I dont even think that was the reason) I was just answering to the overall conversation of how we would feel about some of the non-returning character's moves reappearing with other characters.

It doesn't matter what the justification is, Lucario ended with a very similar move that Mewtwo had, it doesn't matter if it was trademark, or a common pokemon thing. Gameplay wise they shared a similar move, and Mewtwo didn't return, hence the current whole "spiritual successor in moves" thing.

That's all.
 
Fandangox said:
It doesn't really matter why the move was there. I am nor arguing that it was the developers that put it as a replacement move from Mewtwo (I dont even think that was the reason) I was just answering to the overall conversation of how we would feel about some of the non-returning character's moves reappearing with other characters.

It doesn't matter what the justification is, Lucario ended with a very similar move that Mewtwo had, it doesn't matter if it was trademark, or a common pokemon thing. Gameplay wise they shared a similar move, and Mewtwo didn't return, hence the current whole "spiritual successor in moves" thing.

That's all.
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It does matter why the move was there, its because its his signature move, lucario was designed by game freak who i am sure gave fuck all about what sakurai did in melee, while they were doing it. The reason he has a similar move is completely irrelevant to smash bros. There is no spiritual successor, its just design That successor crap is something you have projected.
 
Village said:
It does matter why the move was there, its because its his signature move, lucario was designed by game freak who i am sure gave fuck all about what sakurai did in melee, while they were doing it. The reason he has a similar move is completely irrelevant to smash bros. There is no spiritual successor, its just design That successor crap is something you have projected.
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What were talking about was this.

RealDeadOne said:
How does Smash GAF feel about characters being cut, but parts of their moves et being incorporated into a new character?

For example most of Ike and Roy's moves could be used to make Chrom's moveset.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what the reason was of why they have similar moves, the only thing that matter gameplay-wise is that they did have a similar move.

It doesn't matter if the move was there because of a trademark, or because they got drunk one night and said "why the hell not"

The justification is not what we were arguing about at that point, if you want to talk about it fine, but that was never what I was talking about in the first place.
 
Fandangox said:
What were talking about was this.



It doesn't matter what the reason was of why they have similar moves, the only thing that matter gameplay-wise is that they did have a similar move.

It doesn't matter if the move was there because of a trademark, or because they got drunk one night and said "why the hell not"

The justification is not what we were arguing about at that point, if you want to talk about it fine, but that was never what I was talking about in the first place.
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I am arguing that using lucario for that commentary isn't valid.

for aforementioned reasons.
 
foxuzamaki said:
Moving it to a platform weaker then the home console is not gonna make the brand evolve, they wanted to make it for the 3DS but they didnt say all that. They wanted to make another smash and sakurai would have also like to put it on the 3DS since it was strong enough then somebody said "why not both?" and this is the result.
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Remembering the concept for the project, Sakurai told Puissance Nintendo: "While the development of Kid Icarus: Uprising was at its end, Satoru Iwata came me propose to develop the new Smash Bros game, and asked me if it should be on 3DS or Wii U. We arrived at a point where the series could not evolve, and we wondered if the handheld console was the solution. In the past, we have increased the number of characters and arenas, but this was not enough.
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Um, he actually DID say that.

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/51563/smash-bros-3ds-necessary-to-evolve-the-series/
 
I used to argue with someone who seriously believed KOS-MOS was more deserving than Mega Man for Smash back during the Brawl days.
 
foxuzamaki said:
I thought I was the only one, specially since nintendo owns the developers
sorry guys im doing stuff while trying to catch up on all the postings
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I posted before that I also want KOS-MOS...but it would seem unfair I think. Characters in smash must've had some sort of impact on Nintendo history in one way or another, especially if its a third party character. Sonic was always a Rival to mario for years in the past, and Megaman started on NES and onwards for a long time.....KOS-MOS though. She has only been on like 4 Nintendo games:
  1. Xenosaga I & II (DS Japan only)
  2. Super Robot Taisen OG Saga:Endless Frontier (DS)
  3. Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier Exceed (DS Japan only)
  4. Project X Zone (3DS)
and those games have not really done much to cause a huge bang of success for Nintendo I think, then again I could say the same in the case of Snake. This is probably the same reason why I think Bayonetta would not be a good pick, as much as I would want her in the game.
 
qq more said:
I used to argue with someone who seriously believed KOS-MOS was more deserving than Mega Man for Smash back during the Brawl days.
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Takes me back, back then I didn't even want Mega Man for Brawl, I actually was against it. Of course, this was back where I was an uninformed and unappreciative baby when it came to video games.

In between the announcement of MvC3 and now, I talked with a lot of people who have tons of appreciation of Mega Man and it's other serieses. While I rolled my eyes at my friends in the beginning, I started to learn why they loved the games, and by extension Mega Man himself, so dearly.

Anyways, I'm not gonna drag on too long and I'll just say I was super excited that Mega Man was revealed for the new Smash Bros. He deserved it after what Capcom has done.
 
Know what? It's highly likely that we are getting returning character this week so it is kinda exciting but I wouldn't dare to get my hope high because it could be next week as well. :P
 
I think Pokémon Trainer reveal on Thursday or Friday is definitely possible. I don't know if I want to expect it though seeing as we got a bunch of character reveals in such a short time already. Toon Link was just ~2 or so weeks ago, and Sonic was last week. If we do get a Pokémon character I don't see another reveal until late November at the earliest.
 
Hopefully if we get a Pokemon veteran and there's a hiatus for reveals, they reveal some stages in that time. I also suspect if they reveal a another character so soon they'll keep the next reveal for mid-to-late Novemeber.
 
Drago said:
I think Pokémon Trainer reveal on Thursday or Friday is definitely possible. I don't know if I want to expect it though seeing as we got a bunch of character reveals in such a short time already. Toon Link was just ~2 or so weeks ago, and Sonic was last week. If we do get a Pokémon character I don't see another reveal until late November at the earliest.
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We've still yet to see a single newcomer since E3, perhaps the plan it confirm all the obvious returning characters then slow down once new characters start getting revealed.
 
Pokemon is such a weird position, we obviously are gonna get some form of reveal for X and Y release, but it could be anyone, it could be pokemon trainer, and even if it is, it could be gen 2-6 trainer which could also count as a newcomer if sakurai wants, we have jigglypuff, the least likely to be revealed, but a welcome reveal, we got mewtwo possibly returning, we got lucario possibly returning, or it could be any other pokemon from gen 4-6.

Or it could just be a stage. Or pichu.
 
N's Castle is something I'm hoping for, but is there really a clear view on how it looks?

Pokefloats should be brought back with more Pokemon.
 
Drago said:
I think Pokémon Trainer reveal on Thursday or Friday is definitely possible. I don't know if I want to expect it though seeing as we got a bunch of character reveals in such a short time already. Toon Link was just ~2 or so weeks ago, and Sonic was last week. If we do get a Pokémon character I don't see another reveal until late November at the earliest.
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SmithnCo said:
Hopefully if we get a Pokemon veteran and there's a hiatus for reveals, they reveal some stages in that time. I also suspect if they reveal a another character so soon they'll keep the next reveal for mid-to-late Novemeber.
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Right, Once we got Pokemon character this week, then we might not get any update until Early Nov for Wii Sport Club or Late Nov for Zelda 3DS.

Yeah, that would make sense.
 
Poké Floats 2 would be amazing. Especially if they could miraculously find a way to randomly generate the Pokémon platforms you play on. Imagine they get every Pokédex 3D Pro model in there, randomly generated for you to play on, different selection every time. It would be awesome!
 
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