Kanye West Is One Of The Greatest Contemporary Artists Of All Time

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controversy sells yes but not much more than just being a good person, do some public charity work speak at a high school, if he did stuff like that he'd have a TIL on the frontpage of reddit every other day instead of him being known for whatever stupid shit he did on twitter. Good word of mouth spreads just as much as controversy in this day and age there'd be people staning him all over the internet instead of laughing at how egomaniacal he's become.

edit: and it would probably be better for his mental health, he can't be happy with all this constant negative press, I don't care what different personas he pretends to have
 
One objective thing about Kanye is that he's brought back the hunnnggghhhhhhh vocalization not seen on the pop tip since the glory days of Master P
 
The worst thing Kanye ever did for his career was start rapping over his own beats. Not that he's bad at it. But he is not a man built for the spotlight, and it shows, and it's killing his legacy.

He's more like hip hop's Terence Trent D'Arby than any of the names he keeps checking in comparison.

If he'd stayed in the booth and continued selling his instrumentals to other rappers, he'd be considered up there with Primo at this point, without any of the surrounding bullshit that's slowly driving him insane.
 
livestOne said:
controversy sells yes but not much more than just being a good person, do some public charity work speak at a high school, if he did stuff like that he'd have a TIL on the frontpage of reddit every other day instead of him being known for whatever stupid shit he did on twitter. Good word of mouth spreads just as much as controversy in this day and age there'd be people staning him all over the internet instead of laughing at how egomaniacal he's become.

edit: and it would probably be better for his mental health, he can't be happy with all this constant negative press, I don't care what different personas he pretends to have
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If this were remotely close to being true than you would hear about John Legend all the time.
 
andymcc said:
As much as people love his Glam era stuff seriously just disregard it and go for the albums I mentioned.
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Yeah, I'll check out Low and see what happens. I know some people who really like David Bowie so I'm optimistic.

equippedwithtowel said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0QcxWPB59o
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This is probably the most enjoyable thing I've heard by Kanye West so far but I just am not seeing how it's innovative. He's just not the first guy to use choppy edits intentionally and heavily synthesized drums. What it has over most pop music is conscious dynamics and that's, in my opinion, the most interesting part about it and what I suspect people are getting at when they classify Kanye as a great musician. But it doesn't change the fact that the song is defined by probably the most basic chord progression possible (vi-I with subdominant implications in places) stuck to a simple melody that lacks any kind of variation, tension or subtlety.

Forcing us to listen to that horrible brass synth by itself for like, ten seconds is... something I guess.
 
Ironically as time went on his lyric game (which was mildly weak to begin with) got weaker but his productions have gotten more interesting. It's almost like a trade off.

I'll agree with Bobby and say that he is at his best when he isn't in the spotlight all the time. LIke when he locked himself in Hawaii for Dark Twisted
 
Fugu said:
Yeah, I'll check out Low and see what happens. I know some people who really like David Bowie so I'm optimistic.


This is probably the most enjoyable thing I've heard by Kanye West so far but I just am not seeing how it's innovative. He's just not the first guy to use choppy edits intentionally and heavily synthesized drums. What it has over most pop music is conscious dynamics and that's, in my opinion, the most interesting part about it and what I suspect people are getting at when they classify Kanye as a great musician. But it doesn't change the fact that the song is defined by probably the most basic chord progression possible (vi-I with subdominant implications in places) stuck to a simple melody that lacks any kind of variation, tension or subtlety.

Forcing us to listen to that horrible brass synth by itself for like, ten seconds is... something I guess.
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That particualr sound is innovative for popular hip hop. It's the only category he has weight in and people should probably stop comparing it to other music genres. No one cares about structure or chord progressions, its the sound that's fresh to listeners, plain and simple. That's where I suspect all the praise comes from. The sound.
 
MuddyDonut said:
That particualr sound is innovative for popular hip hop. It's the only category he has weight in and people should probably stop comparing it to other music genres. No one cares about structure or chord progressions, its the sound that's fresh to listeners, plain and simple. That's where I suspect all the praise comes from. The sound.
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Praise is fine. I just think that he isn't a "genius", he hasn't "revolutionised the whole industry" and he definitely isn't "bigger than the industry", which is just some of the unfounded hyperbole that is being bandied about in here.

Also, a couple of posters mentioned (to paraphase) "what he has not only done for hip hop, but music as a whole", without saying what it is he's done; this, coupled with the thread title, is why there are comparisons to other genres.
 
MuddyDonut said:
That particualr sound is innovative for popular hip hop. It's the only category he has weight in and people should probably stop comparing it to other music genres. No one cares about structure or chord progressions, its the sound that's fresh to listeners, plain and simple. That's where I suspect all the praise comes from. The sound.
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We don't call Bach a genius because of his "sound".
 
Fugu said:
We don't call Bach a genius because of his "sound".
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Not that I think Kanye is a "musical genius" but the pop artists I would apply this to (Davids Byrne and Bowie) deserve that term precisely because of their sound.

Innovation in the structural composition of music is not the sole metric of the insight or talent possessed by its creators.

edit: I guess I'd also call Neil Young a genius, but that's on a lyrical basis. And maybe Tom Waits as well if it comes to it.
 
Fugu said:
We don't call Bach a genius because of his "sound".
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That's true, but innovative uses of arrangements and timbres is valid grounds to legitimise a composer or musician's genius. For example, Cage's prepared piano or Stockhausen's electronic work (did he do the quartet in helicopters piece, too?).

equippedwithtowel said:
Not that I think Kanye is a "musical genius" but the pop artists I would apply this to (Davids Byrne and Bowie) deserve that term precisely because of their sound.

Innovation in the structural composition of music is not the sole metric of the insight or talent possessed by its creators.

edit: I guess I'd also call Neil Young a genius, but that's on a lyrical basis. And maybe Tom Waits as well if it comes to it.
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You're right what you're saying, but Tom Waits and Bowie's genius is in their ability to pillage musical forms from the past and present (respectively) and put a unique spin on them (i love them both). Their work is also highly collaborative, so another great skill they have is to bring together the right people for the job. Both are also greatly in debt to their influences and tend to wear them quite proudly.
 
His first 3 albums were great, seems like after that his arrogance has really caused his music to go down hill. He was much better at sampling than actually composing his own stuff.
 
MuddyDonut said:
I like this viewpoint, but I hope you know that you cannot be objective about music because you know music theory. It means nothing.
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Um, to a certain extent you can. People who know music theory are able to understand and analyze things about music on a level much higher than people who do not. Whether something is ultimately "good" or "bad" or "innovative" will always be subjective, but someone who knows music theory would be able to give valid reasons other than "because that's how I feel about it."
 
MBDTF turns into a shit album halfway through. Did no one ever listen to College Dropout or Late Registration?

I am sure Kanye is ashamed he created such a crap album like "man how come I can't make an album as good as CD or LR anymore?"
 
I've yet to see Kanye do anything that Dilla didn't do decades ago and better, or if Dilla never did it it, it's because it's kind of wack or show-off ish.Kanye's biggest issue, in comparison to Dilla-who I think is obviously his biggest influence- is his drums and basslines suck and sometimes just don't fit his lucky to have found samples. That too,you never see Kanye fuck around with a track to find a dope sample, if you check his samples to the originals they all just sounded dope to begin with.

Really don't see how he's a genius, he just kind of did his time and was given his niche.
 
TheSpaceBetween said:
Um, to a certain extent you can. People who know music theory are able to understand and analyze things about music on a level much higher than people who do not. Whether something is ultimately "good" or "bad" or "innovative" will always be subjective, but someone who knows music theory would be able to give valid reasons other than "because that's how I feel about it."
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Is innovation subjective...? I'm not sure it is.
 
A friend of mine who is a big music fan said this bit of wisdom that always stuck with me:

"It's okay to like crap bands. Everyone likes some crap bands. When you step over the line is when you try to convince other people that they are not, in fact, crap bands."
 
Fugu said:
We don't call Bach a genius because of his "sound".
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I would call Kanye a force of impact on his specific genre as he's consistenly altered his contemporaries through his albums for the past 10+ years.

Here's some samplings of songs I like of his over the years, some of which I think are incredibly bizarre to be within his genre.

Jesus Walks
All Falls Down

Touch The Sky
Hey Mama

Stronger
Can't Tell Me Nothin- I just think this video is hilarious

Love Lockdown
Paranoid
StreetLights


Runaway

BlameGame


On Sight
Blood On the Leaves

From anecdotal appearances, we've seen popular rap music alter itself after each of Kanye's releases, especially after tCD,LR,G, 808s, and MBDTF. Whether a 10 year long impact on music is considered genius or not is up for grabs, especially when your definition of genius may be different than other peoples. From your definition, I would definitely say he is not a 'musical theory' genius, but I would consider him someone who has had a large and reaching impact on the musical genre in which he operates. He has popularized various underground artists/subgenres. There is something to be admired about an artist who consistently alters the genre in which he operates.
 
Screaming Meat said:
That's true, but innovative uses of arrangements and timbres is valid grounds to legitimise a composer or musician's genius. For example, Cage's prepared piano or Stockhausen's electronic work (did he do the quartet in helicopters piece, too?)
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Of course (and I mentioned those things when I was talking about the piece) but that's not happening here.

equippedwithtowel said:
Not that I think Kanye is a "musical genius" but the pop artists I would apply this to (Davids Byrne and Bowie) deserve that term precisely because of their sound.

Innovation in the structural composition of music is not the sole metric of the insight or talent possessed by its creators.

edit: I guess I'd also call Neil Young a genius, but that's on a lyrical basis. And maybe Tom Waits as well if it comes to it.
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I just find it hard to believe that there's no word better to describe what makes them a genius in the wide vocabulary of quantifiable music terms than "sound". If there really isn't, then what makes those artists a genius versus an artist that you just happen to really like?
 
Late is my favourite Kanye track, he should make more like that.

I've recently started to look at Kanye like a bizarro world Lupe (which I'm sure will only really make sense to me), don't know how he does it lol.
 
My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is amazing.

Having said that, I can't get into anything else Kanye has released. Nothing. Not even his first two "classic" albums.

So from my perspective, no, he's not one of the greatest of all-time. Is he even the undisputed best rapper of his own era? Depends on who you ask...
 
Screaming Meat said:
Is innovation subjective...? I'm not sure it is.
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I actually I agree with you. However, the way I've seen many people use the term these days when discussing video games or music... A lot of the time they completely fail to illustrate why it is. I just meant that people who study music theory would be in a much better position to explain why something is musically innovative or not.
 
Nerfgun said:
A friend of mine who is a big music fan said this bit of wisdom that always stuck with me:

"It's okay to like crap bands. Everyone likes some crap bands. When you step over the line is when you try to convince other people that they are not, in fact, crap bands."
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Why bring this up in a Kanye thread? Not that we're all expected to defer to music critics or the Grammy board, but he's one of the most critically-acclaimed musical acts (especially within the pop sphere) of the past decade. It's not really guilty pleasure material.
 
equippedwithtowel said:
Not that I think Kanye is a "musical genius" but the pop artists I would apply this to (Davids Byrne and Bowie) deserve that term precisely because of their sound.
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The closest thing to a pop genius that I can think of is the Beatles.

The Beatles remained relevant by consciously subverting what they'd become associated with and by adapting a wide variety of different musical vocabularies into the narrow form of rock music that they were familiar with. While many acts have reinvented themselves, they did so in front of arguably the largest audience in the history of music and they did so in ways that never seemed to lose the attention of that audience.

I am skeptical of referring to them as geniuses even still because the extent of their capitalization of the western ear is nearly total. It is tough to say if their music would stand alone if they weren't driven by the marketing force that they were, especially when their songwriting is as scattershot as it is.

lastflowers said:
I would call Kanye a force of impact on his specific genre as he's consistenly altered his contemporaries through his albums for the past 10+ years.

Here's some samplings of songs I like of his over the years, some of which I think are incredibly bizarre to be within his genre.

snip

From anecdotal appearances, we've seen popular rap music alter itself after each of Kanye's releases, especially after tCD,LR,G, 808s, and MBDTF. Whether a 10 year long impact on music is considered genius or not is up for grabs, especially when your definition of genius may be different than other peoples. From your definition, I would definitely say he is not a 'musical theory' genius, but I would consider him someone who has had a large and reaching impact on the musical genre in which he operates. He has popularized various underground artists/subgenres. There is something to be admired about an artist who consistently alters the genre in which he operates.
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Influence is a difficult measure when discussing pop music because pop music is, to a degree unlike anywhere else in music, directed by money and marketing. It is therefore very difficult to distinguish between a pop artist whose influences can be felt elsewhere because of their sales success and a pop artists whose influences can be felt elsewhere because of their ingenuity. I'm not convinced that it's possible to make that designation in the present and I would be surprised if it were ever truly possible to do so in the future.
 
ShineALight said:
Why bring this up in a Kanye thread? Not that we're all expected to defer to music critics or the Grammy board, but he's one of the most critically-acclaimed musical acts (especially within the pop sphere) of the past decade. It's not really guilty pleasure material.
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I wasn't really insinuating that he is crap, just that it's ok to like who you like, whether or not the artist in question is a peerless musical genius.
 
It's the cray shit in the club.

I think he has a good ear for production but that's about it. He's not an impressive rapper and his lyrics are often shit.
 
ShineALight said:
Why bring this up in a Kanye thread? Not that we're all expected to defer to music critics or the Grammy board, but he's one of the most critically-acclaimed musical acts (especially within the pop sphere) of the past decade. It's not really guilty pleasure material.
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Having a Grammy means absolutely nothing.
 
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It baffles me that anyone in their right mind can compare a artist with tracks titled "Niggas in Paris" and "Black Skinhead" - someone with lyrics about Celine Dion's booty and doesn't really even have good grasp on the English language to Beethoven.

Rap isn't really my thing I admit, but I want whatever drugs you guys are on that makes this garbage even tolerable. There is no talent in this, you could go to the projects in Brooklyn an find a hundred People thy could do the exact same thing.
 
Fugu said:
Of course (and I mentioned those things when I was talking about the piece) but that's not happening here.

I just find it hard to believe that there's no word better to describe what makes them a genius in the wide vocabulary of quantifiable music terms than "sound". If there really isn't, then what makes those artists a genius versus an artist that you just happen to really like?
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I'm not saying that, I don't believe Kanye is a genius or anything. I'm saying that in popular hip hop he takes sounds from other genres and blends them together. People like him because that sound of edm/ hip hop, acid-house/hip hop, etc. is something they have not heard before. That sound is what they like and it's all that is quantifiable. You can attempt to apply music theory to it, but for a vast majority of people it is meaningless and won't stop them from proclaiming him as the best ever.
 
corpserot said:
It baffles me that anyone in their right mind can compare a artist with tracks titled "Niggas in Paris" and "Black Skinhead" - someone with lyrics about Celine Dion's booty and doesn't really even have goo grasp on the English language to Beethoven.

Rap isn't really my thing I admit, but I want whatever drugs you guys are on that makes this garbage even tolerable. There is no talent in this, you could go to the projects in Brooklyn an find a hundred People thy could do the exact same thing.
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What the hell man.

Also- just a protip- your post comes across to me as hella racist. Not accusing you of anything, just giving you a heads up about potentially iffy wording.
 
TRUTH

Too bad most people cant separate the man from the music and instead judge his music based on their hatred of his personality instead of the actual musical content.
 
peterb0y said:
What the hell man.

Also- just a protip- your post comes across to me as hella racist. Not accusing you of anything, just giving you a heads up about potentially iffy wording.
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How does it come across as racist? Black people are not the only ones living in Brooklyn projects, and if thats what you jumped to then I believe you are the one who is racist.

Like I said, it's not my kind of music, but I just glancing at the lyrics to "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" I cannot figure out how anyone can take this seriously.
 
FonkyByNature said:
I still think his music is shit, commercial and very group focused to make the biggest impact in the industry and thus, making shittons of money. Him and Jay-Z or any ex-real-rapper who became addicted to fame and money, are crappy artists who want to make money more than building a strong heritage in music. But hey, they can't build any force in music because they can't.

No commercial artist alive today can be compared to Bethoven, i hope that is a joke because you just insulted probably one of the best artists of all time.

The OP comparison can't be taken seriously lol...
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Stuff like this proves you and anyone who agrees with you have no idea what you're talking about. Kanye stays away from commercial shit, there is nothing like Yeezus out there right now. Every artist would kill to work with Kanye, if he really wanted to slam home commercial hits every day he could but working with shit mainstream artists. All of his music is a representation of where he is in his life at the time of producing, which is why there is such variance in his work. How many songs from Yeezus or MBDTF did you hear on the radio?
 
I disagree wholeheartedly. Anyone that has to adapt anything that they do to match what is happening in the industry doesn't make you the greatest of all time. Not the best writer, MC, or producer. He is a damn good producer but, not the best. Credit to being able to adapt in a changing music industry/environment, but that's where it stops for me.

Now if you mean contemporary as in 'the arts', I have no idea. Way I see it, he is a highly successful musician with money and apparently a lot of time on his hands to pursue other passions. I wouldn't label him the greatest because of this, which I feel a lot of his fans seem to do.

I also understand that music well, popular music is always going to be in a funk, but we should try hard not to give too much credit to artist that somehow go beyond their genres.
 
Soulscribe said:
Kanye West, Justin Timberlake, Beyonce and Lady Gaga are pretty much signed and sealed as the titans of contemporary music. They'll definitely be placed on a caliber similar to Whitney, Madonna, Michael, Bowie and the like.
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Nope. We no longer have a monoculture so the four contemporary artists you list will have a much smaller impact overall than the likes of Whitney, Madonna, MJ or Bowie.

I don't really see how anybody can truly agree with the point you're making.
 
I put Yeezus up there with the great oddball albums like 'In Utero', Manic Street Preachers 'Holy Bible' and David Bowie's 'Low'. Mainstream acts releasing abrasive, progressive records. Listened to it practically every day since release, only now starting to taper off. Never thought he'd top mbdtf but I think Yeezus is his best album. Incredible run of albums. Changes his direction brilliantly. Not a great rapper but a unique one with hilarious idiosyncrasies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzbIAfh43Hg

The layering and confluence of different sounds on this track is beautiful. Love the strings and piano at the end too.
 
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