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Is Peyton Manning the best quarterback of all time? No.

Is Peyton Manning the greatest quarterback ever?

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Aodh said:
Fundamentally, yes. He's the best. Real world results? No he's not the best. Favre holds a ton of records, and he's not even the best QB of his generation. In the end, championships beats stats. Lead your team to titles. That is the benchmark for the best QB.
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It's interesting that this seems to be such a common opinion in this thread.

As a very casual Football observer who is primarily interested in baseball amongst traditional sports, I can say that modern Baseball analytics do not suggest championships beat stats. The explanation is fairly simple: a huge portion of championships are random and arbitrary, and even the non-random portions are significantly outside any specific individuals' control (as there are 20+ people on the field at any given time without even beginning to discuss coaching staff).

Why has the opposite conclusion been reached in Football?
 
Opiate said:
It's interesting that this seems to be such a common opinion in this thread.

As a very casual Football observer who is primarily interested in baseball amongst traditional sports, I can say that modern Baseball analytics do not suggest championships beat stats. The explanation is fairly simple: a huge portion of championships are random and arbitrary, and even the non-random portions are significantly outside any specific individuals' control (as there are 20+ people on the field at any given time).

Why has the opposite conclusion been reached in Football?
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I'm a big proponent in sabermetrics but even in baseball the sentimental still matters more than the raw numbers. That may change as the old guard dies but that's why Miggy got the MVP last year instead of Trout. It's why Trout or Donaldson won't get it this year. Football is a harder game to quantify because it hasn't been essentially the same game for so many years. We cannot contextualize football the way we can with baseball.
 
Gannd said:
I'm a big proponent in sabermetrics but even in baseball the sentimental still matters more than the raw numbers. That may change as the old guard dies but that's why Miggy got the MVP last year instead of Trout. It's why Trout or Donaldson won't get it this year. Football is a harder game to quantify because it hasn't been essentially the same game for so many years. We cannot contextualize football the way we can with baseball.
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Oh I agree that sentimental old fans of baseball still exist who do not like data analytics, but they're clearly wrong. The fact that they exist doesn't strike me as evidence that they are correct.

Further, I agree that Football seems a harder game to quantify, but that doesn't mean the same basic principles don't apply -- we can reasonably assume they do -- we just can't properly quantify them yet. The outcomes are significantly reliant on chance and randomness, and in that portion which is skill based, only a small portion of that skill can be attributed to any specific individual. Objectively terrible players have almost certainly won many superbowls.
 
Opiate said:
Oh I agree that sentimental old fans of baseball still exist who do not like data analytics, but they're clearly wrong. The fact that they exist doesn't strike me as relevant.

I agree that Football seems a harder game to quantify, but that doesn't mean the same basic principles don't apply -- we can reasonably assume they do -- we just can't properly quantify them yet.
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But, we can't. Football today is fundamentally not the same game it was 10 years ago which isn't the same game it was 20 years ago. They are trying but there isn't even the consensus among the stats heads with football compared to baseball. There is just so much raw data with baseball I don't think Football can compete. ESPN has their QBR but it's not a very good metric.

The same principles don't apply because the game isn't the same. You cannot contextualize a football player like you can a baseball player because the game isn't the same. It is fundamentally a different game.
 
Ludicrous Speed said:
I knew that excuse was going to come up! Manning has done just fine, regardless of who his receivers have been. And let's not forget, Amendola was back this week. Brady should have gone off with such a skilled receiver, right??

Oh no, but Gronk is still out. When he comes back Brady will have more yards and tds than any other qb in the league in the second half of the season. Right?
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Amendola is one guy, and was not used to being a top reciever to Brady. He's a star in the same way the best person on the second or third string is a star once all the starters go away.

I'll admit yesterdays game was dreadful for Brady, no matter the recieving situation and no matter the torrential downpour on that last drive.

What I would have given to see the 2012 or 2007 Pats play the 2013 Broncos. Clone Welker if need be.
 
johnny_park said:
I'm a Bronco fan and I was saying thank you to Romo for throwing that int which led to the win. Romo had an awesome game but something always happens when the pressure is on him.
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Ah yes, the 'narrative' appears again. Did you know Romo led the league last year in fourth quarter comebacks?

Bill Barnwell said:
If you think Tony Romo cost Dallas that game yesterday, you're a fool. That's a column I've written before. Two years ago this week, actually, in a game when Romo got the Cowboys out to a big lead and then had two interceptions returned for touchdowns. (Is it something in the water in Texas?) To be honest, while I'm sure there are people out there who find it endlessly entertaining or meaningful to point out that Romo came up short at the end of a game again, there's no point in writing that column another time. If you really, genuinely believe that the Cowboys had access to a quarterback who would have put them in a better situation to win that game yesterday or that Dallas didn't significantly benefit from having Romo in there, you're overlooking a great game, but I'm never going to convince you otherwise. I can point out that Romo led the league in fourth-quarter comebacks last season and it will be for naught. On one hand, it's not worth having that discussion again because it's so obviously stupid.
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http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9784782/bill-barnwell-week-5-nfl
 
Jayhawk said:
Ah yes, the 'narrative' appears again. Did you know Romo led the league last year in fourth quarter comebacks?
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And what did that get him? Playoffs? Nope, hasn't been since 2009. He in his 8th year as there starter and have only made the playoffs 3 times. His playoff record is 1-3. It's a good thing he plays in the NFC LEAST because if he was in any other division he wouldn't sniff the playoffs this year.
 
Peyton? Best ever? No way in hell. Peyton's a fantastic regular season quarterback, but his postseason record isn't that great and he's never been good in bad weather games.

Favre, Brady, Montana > Peyton.
 
Qbs putting up huge numbers in a pass happy, qb protecting, defensively handcuffed league are still being called the greatest of all time? Oh Gaf.
 
yahoo_manning_marino.jpg


#1 and #2.
Marino is #1, btw.
 
Tabris said:
They are really excited their QB scored a touchdown finally.
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Watching Brady win is almost as good as watching you bandwagon onto the latest edition to your shitbag team. Who will it be next year, you know, after you guys go nowhere beyond the first round of the play-offs?
 
Lunchbox said:
one struggles against the Jags

one shits on a 5-0 team of drug addicted criminals with 1 min left with no receivers
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Don't blame Peyton for being so good that he doesn't need three tries at a lucky game-winning drive to win his games.

NathanMcMahon said:
Watching Brady win is almost as good as watching you bandwagon onto the latest edition to your shitbag team. Who will it be next year, you know, after you guys go nowhere beyond the first round of the play-offs?
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The Pats/Brady haven't won shit in the past decade, you're in no position to say anything.
 
ThreePiMatt said:
Man, I hope all those people who were saying "Peyton isn't even the best Manning" aren't watching Thursday Night Football right now.
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Haha yeah. Eli with his 9 TDs/15 INTs and barely over 50% completion percentage so far this season. Not to mention a 0-6 team.
 
Tom Brady has had one great receiver his whole career and he broke nearly every record in their short time together. Montana had Jerry Rice and Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Brady has receivers no one else literally wanted.

They are all great though, and great to watch.
 
Man-is-Obsolete said:
Tom Brady has had one great receiver his whole career and he broke nearly every record in their short time together. Montana had Jerry Rice and Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Brady has receivers no one else literally wanted.

They are all great though, and great to watch.
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In the 13 seasons Montana saw significant playing time, he only had Rice in 6 of them. And in Rice's rookie year he didn't put up great numbers (didn't break 50 catches or 1000 yards, only had 3 TDs). He also won his first 2 SBs without him.
 
Man-is-Obsolete said:
Tom Brady has had one great receiver his whole career and he broke nearly every record in their short time together. Montana had Jerry Rice and Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Brady has receivers no one else literally wanted.

They are all great though, and great to watch.
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Wes Welker and Randy Moss? That's 2. More than Montana and same as Manning. I would say that Manning made more out of his receivers, as Harrison and Wayne don't compare to Welker and Moss. Brady had the best slot receiver of the last decade and one of the best wide outs.

He has also shown he can get more out of his receivers than Brady ala Wes Welker.
 
Man-is-Obsolete said:
Tom Brady has had one great receiver his whole career and he broke nearly every record in their short time together. Montana had Jerry Rice and Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Brady has receivers no one else literally wanted.

They are all great though, and great to watch.
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Brady and Manning have also had the rules tailored to offenses, something Montana didn't benefit from

This was legal back in 1989, yet players are getting fined for hits like this (if Whitner doesn't hit him, that's a TD).

whitner.gif


Montana also played in an era where touching the QB wasn't a penalty, unlike today, where if a defensive player looks at or breathes on Brady wrong, its a penalty.
 
Man-is-Obsolete said:
Tom Brady has had one great receiver his whole career and he broke nearly every record in their short time together. Montana had Jerry Rice and Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Brady has receivers no one else literally wanted.

They are all great though, and great to watch.
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Lots'a bullshit in this thread.

linkboy said:
Brady and Manning have also had the rules tailored to offenses, something Montana didn't benefit from

This was legal back in 1989, yet players are getting fined for hits like this (if Whitner doesn't hit him, that's a TD).

whitner.gif


Montana also played in an era where touching the QB wasn't a penalty, unlike today, where if a defensive player looks at or breathes on Brady wrong, its a penalty.
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Roughing the passer still existed back then. People like to make it seem like defenders were able to do whatever they wanted back then.

I do agree with WRs jerking up QB stats due to rule changes.
 
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