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US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised

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It is amazing to me how quickly the republican party is crumbling. I mean, who in the world could ever vote for this party right now? It's insanity. They're nuts. Usually we use that term lightly, but I legitimately think many in that party are insane.
 
Oh man, the whole "republicans hate Obama because he's black" argument again. I'm definitely not a republican but this argument is ridiculous.

Yes there are racists who are republican but I don't think they're even significant enough to discuss.
 
Are there any other photos of anyone else with that stuff? I see the same guy in all of those pictures and no one else. One guy in many different photos a movement does not make.

You're probably seeing the photo a lot because it was just taken the other day. But I trust/hope that's not the first time you've seen a Confederate flag in the last five years either.
 
I'm not making excuses. There are racists in the Republican party. How many people post the flippant "Because he's black" is why the tea party hates him. No. That may be while a fraction of the movement hates him. The real reason the tea party hates him is because he's a Democrat. That's a generalization but guess what when you're dealing with millions of people you have to abstract. It's a good abstraction to say: Hard right knuckle dragggers hate a liberal President. There isn't a whole lot of nuance in this thread.

you respond to generalizations with your own. we arent getting anywhere. its safe to say that the gop does enough damage to their own image in regards to racism, and people are free to notice the pattern of the gop. why you want me to not.notice, or make cheeky posts about it, thats on you.
 
Oh man, the whole "republicans hate Obama because he's black" argument again. I'm definitely not a republican but this argument is ridiculous.

Yes there are racists who are republican but I don't think they're even significant enough to discuss.

Weren't we pretty much just talking about tea partiers though? Because TPers - dem are fucking racist scumbags.
 
As a Republican you can take this kind of bullshit and shove it straight up your ass.

Democrats love to toss the word Racism around as the ultimate copout. I remember in 2008 democrats saying this country as a whole was too racist to even elect a black man president. That was their copout if indeed Obama failed to get elected. Then when polls shifted in Romney's favor it was because the USA is too racists to re-elect a black man. That same dumb ass line has been used for EVERY SINGLE POLITICAL SITUATION ever since he has taken office. If he is unable to get his way, it only happened because whomever was against his ideas were racists. It is tiresome, and the ultimate copout. I really do not think there has been a debate since Obama was elected where race did not become a part of the conversation.

The southern Dixiecrat's shift to the Republican Party is no coincidence. Why are you acting like southern secessionist and racist attitudes haven't played a roll in the current GOP movement? People were hanging chairs from their front yard trees for Christi's sake.

I don't think every republican is racist nor do I think every republican is some whacked out tea party nut, but to deny that these negatives aren't a real part of your parties platform is to ignore why the party is so shaken up. If they're not being racist, they're being homophobic, sexist or they're shitting on immigrants as well.
 
Can we just, get rid of the House? Forever?

It's always the House that seems to fuck up everything, no matter who's in charge. Keep the Senate, Kill the House.

Its funny because the House was created to represent heavy populated states like California, Texas, New York, etc. The Senate to equally represent all states giving advantage to the many smaller ones.

Fuck gerrymandering.
 
You had fringe democrats trying to impeach Bush. You have fringe Republicans doing the same thing. This isn't going to happen and it's not going to go anywhere. It's 100% not going to be put forth by the Republican party.


There needs to be a split of the Republican party like Hannity wants but I think you guys are really reaching when you bring this stuff up.

those "fringe" democrats never had control of the party or support of the electorate.unlike tea-partiers. it's not the same thing.
 
Is the era of permanent crisis over? Not sure yet. We'll see when the next deadlines come. But the tenor has absolutely changed. I'm extremely impressed by Obama and, especially, Reid for how they handled things.

For the Republicans, I have to think the bloom is off for shutdowns and debt limit breaches. Sounds like they know it too, as the talk of impeachment is starting. Then maybe we'll get back to the 90's, where Republicans were still batshit crazy but the basic functions of government were nevertheless carried out.
 
No need to kill the House, you just need to enforce non-partisan redistricting across all states. Or kill representation based on locality altogether and abolish FPTP.

I'm all for getting rid of districting.

No.

Get rid of the senate.
Keep the house.
re-design the voting system to instant-runoff and proportional representation in the legislature.

Senate people are at least reasonable. The House is filled with loonies.
 
How, exactly, does proportional representation work? How do you pick which representatives go to the house and which don't? Is there a mechanic based on areas or what?

The House is (currently) fixed at 435 members. Every state gets 1 + more based on their population (proportional). Each state then splits* its self up by districts based on the number of representatives they have, with each representative representing one district. Separate elections are held within each district to determine their representative

*unevenly -- districts in most states are drawn by whichever party rules the state legislature to get the most amount of their supporters into each district
 
The House is (currently) fixed at 435 members. Every state gets 1 + more based on their population (proportional). Each state then splits* its self up by districts based on the number of representatives they have, with each representative representing one district. Separate elections are held within each district to determine their representative

*unevenly -- districts in most states are drawn by whichever party rules the state legislature to get the most amount of their supporters into each district

No that's what we have now, which, as I understand, is a whole lot different than how other nations do it.
 
Widespread GOP voter "fraud" legislative shenanigans suggest otherwise.

I don't know, I think they would argue that was more targeted at preventng illegal immigrants from voting rather than disenfranchising people. I've seen no concrete evidence that a significant portion of the GOP is racist.


To be clear, I resent that I have to defend them, but I think this issue is silly when there are real problems with the party.
 
Are the Democrats racists when some of them called Condie Rice a nigger? Or when prominent liberal columnists called Colin Powell a nigger? No. They disliked them because they are Republicans. The Tea Party LOVES Dr. Ben Carson and last time I checked....he's black.

There is a political component. The parties hate the other side and use whatever they can in that hate. If President Obama were a Republican they wouldn't be hating him because he's black but we'd hear from Democrats that he's a nigger because Democrats have done it in the past. JC Watts was called a nigger, too.

You are lying. Two cartoonists depicted and/or labelled Rice as a "house nigger", one singer called Powell a "house nigger".

The idea that that is anywhere on par with the bile the GOP has spewed over Obama is a deliberate false equivalency.
 
Anyone who thinks this is about race is simply wrong. Wrong with a capital W.

They would be doing this to any President who is a member of the Democratic Party. He could have the blondest hair a man can have and blue eyes as deep as the ocean and they would be doing this.

The Republican base may be made up of racists, but they are not all racists. They do, though, share one fundamental belief: they do not believe in the legitimacy of Democratic governance. This is a core belief of the Republican base. As such, by definition, any of Obama's actions are illegitimate, un-American, and against the proper governance of the United States.

This is, by the way, a far far worse problem than it would be if they were simply racist. Because if it was just about race, the next Democratic President, Whitely BlondBlueEyes would be able to govern with them. This will not happen! And since Republicans are rapidly becoming an unpopular regional party unable to build a national coalition, there will be a lot more Democratic Presidents over the decades.
 
As a Republican you can take this kind of bullshit and shove it straight up your ass.

Democrats love to toss the word Racism around as the ultimate copout. I remember in 2008 democrats saying this country as a whole was too racist to even elect a black man president. That was their copout if indeed Obama failed to get elected. Then when polls shifted in Romney's favor it was because the USA is too racists to re-elect a black man. That same dumb ass line has been used for EVERY SINGLE POLITICAL SITUATION ever since he has taken office. If he is unable to get his way, it only happened because whomever was against his ideas were racists. It is tiresome, and the ultimate copout. I really do not think there has been a debate since Obama was elected where race did not become a part of the conversation.

Except polls never shifted in Romney's favor
 

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Because race IS a part of the conversation.

You can't discount racism on the party of Tea Party supporters when you see this shit:



Not all Republicans are racist and you don't have to be a racist to dislike Obama. But discounting ANY racial component to the situation is just ignorant.

As a black man from the south I see the confederate flap all the time. I see people with it as Tattoos and they have T-shirts with it on and everything. There is even a giant one running through a major highway in my state Hint:
Same state with the giant jesus billboard overlooking a highway.
But I don't think this flag represents racism anymore because a lot of people I know that fly it aren't racist. I think its more of a symbol of southern culture now more than anything else.
 
Ugh, senate is now pushing a shitty bill to kick the can down the road 3 months? Do they not realize how much fucking drag these stupid things put on the economy? Fix it right you fucks.
 
It was a fillabuster. That's common.

IIRC, it wasn't a fillibuster. He just took up the entire allotment of time the GOP got to debate on the CR. Which he then voted for after saying people shouldn't vote yes for the whole 20 hour period he ran his trap. He's fucking nuts.
 
On their way into the meeting to finalise the compromise deal, Republican moderates were in angry mood.

Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said this had "been the best two weeks for the Democratic Party in recent times".

"When we evaluate the last couple of weeks it should be entitled the time of great lost opportunity. If we had been focused on the roll-out of Obamacare and its confusion, public support would have diminished. Instead, our numbers have gone down, Obamacare has mysteriously gone up and other than that this has been great.”

Graham was scathing about the influence of conservative groups like Heritage Action but blamed lawmakers for listening to them.

"Every member of Congress gets hit by groups like this right and left. I am not mad at a group for wanting their way; I am focusing on trying to get the Republican party to chart a better way. The way we are behaving and the path we have taken the last couple of weeks leads to a marginalised party in the eyes of the American people. A form of conservatism that is probably beyond what the market would bear. "

For the first time in recent weeks, Senator Ted Cruz refused to stop and talk to reporters.

Keep listening!

edit: And on that note:

The Senate session begins with a prayer. Seems about right.
 
No that's what we have now, which, as I understand, is a whole lot different than how other nations do it.

oh sorry, misunderstood the question. each party just has a list of candidates ranked (by voter or party depending on specific system) and go down the list until they run out of seats (based on proportion of vote). at least that is my understanding
 
Actually, that wasn't a filibuster. It was just grandstanding. The vote on that bill was always going to happen.

Yeah, that's why the media insisted on calling it a "speech-a-thon" or a "Talkathon" - what he was doing was not a filibuster.

And reading "Green Eggs and Ham" isn't common for filibusters, either.

But I don't think this flag represents racism anymore because a lot of people I know that fly it aren't recent. I think its more of a symbol of southern culture now more than anything else.

The phrase "Southern Culture" is basically social coding for ingrained racism. It was part of the reformation after the Civil War. A lot of educators/policy-makers decided that was a pretty decent way to whitewash their beliefs without really having to let go of them.

The flag represents the confederacy, and the confederacy was all about maintaining the right to own black people as property. There's really no way around that. It's a traitorous flag symbolizing a terrible desire.

Getting people to believe it means more than that helps people justify the more reprehensible shit about "southern culture."
 
Then maybe we'll get back to the 90's, where Republicans were still batshit crazy but the basic functions of government were nevertheless carried out.

A portion of the 90's republicans would be blue dog Democrats now and most assuredly primaried to the right and would lose their seat.

The Republicans have really gone off the deep end as driven by the Tea Party. Shame really, I think financially conservative ideas still has a place in American politics (essential if you ask me), but that message (and practice of such for that matter), has been lost...Lost for along time.

Now we get to watch Republicans consist of (1) Tea Partiers (2) Way Christian right (probably alot of overlap of the two), and like the two Republicans left that actually believe in fiscal responsibility.
 
Ugh, senate is now pushing a shitty bill to kick the can down the road 3 months? Do they not realize how much fucking drag these stupid things put on the economy? Fix it right you fucks.

It's not a problem that can be fixed overnight. If they went for a full-on comprehensive budget overhaul, they wouldn't get it done by the deadline and the US defaults.

With this deal, they get some breathing room to go back and take a look at some of the sequester cuts and get a better overall deal for both parties. It's not ideal, but it's the best they could come up with in this amount of time.
 
Ugh, senate is now pushing a shitty bill to kick the can down the road 3 months? Do they not realize how much fucking drag these stupid things put on the economy? Fix it right you fucks.

It's very unlikely there will be any attempt to appease the Tea Party again next time after the spectacular and pointless failure of the past 2 weeks.
 
It's not a problem that can be fixed overnight. If they went for a full-on comprehensive budget overhaul, they wouldn't get it done by the deadline and the US defaults.

With this deal, they get some breathing room to go back and take a look at some of the sequester cuts and get a better overall deal for both parties. It's not ideal, but it's the best they could come up with in this amount of time.

Yeah, and they got pretty much what they wanted, more time. You really think they'll sit the next one out? They got a get out of jail free card and permission to pull this shit again. This is in no way the "best they could come up with".

It's very unlikely there will be any attempt to appease the Tea Party again next time after the spectacular and pointless failure of the past 2 weeks.

How do you figure? They went all in this time and got bailed out by democrats again. What do they have to lose to do this again? Kick the can for 3 months again?
 
I don't know, I think they would argue that was more targeted at preventng illegal immigrants from voting rather than disenfranchising people. I've seen no concrete evidence that a significant portion of the GOP is racist.

Voter fraud is a statistically insignificant problem. The fact that GOP pushes so hard for that kind of legislation should be proof enough that their target is minority enfranchisement.
 
oh sorry, misunderstood the question. each party just has a list of candidates ranked (by voter or party depending on specific system) and go down the list until they run out of seats (based on proportion of vote). at least that is my understanding

Well then how does it work for small districts in the middle of nowhere?

I mean, I don't particularly care if rural nowhere gets to go to Washington and bitch about hayseed or something (I'm joking), but with such a large country, what happens when so much of the middle votes strongly for one party but is drowned out by the rest. What if that party decides to pick people from places where the voters aren't?

That was confusing. I guess I'm asking how you ensure that someone is actually going to Washington and representing a certain constituency?
 
The Republican base may be made up of racists, but they are not all racists. They do, though, share one fundamental belief: they do not believe in the legitimacy of Democratic governance. This is a core belief of the Republican base. As such, by definition, any of Obama's actions are illegitimate, un-American, and against the proper governance of the United States.

This is true, but you don't seem to understand WHY they disavow the legitimacy of Democratic governance. Did you notice that it didn't start happening until the Civil Rights Act? Did you ever consider why it would be that Southern states used to have strong policies in favor of public schooling until the schools were desegregated, and now hatred of public schools is a tenet of faith on the right? Have you heard the rumblings on the right about the Democrats creating a "dependent majority" of voters who are lazy and stupid and will vote in exchange for handouts? Any clue as to what that might be a reference to?

The Republican party* doesn't think Obama is illegitimate because he's black. They think the Democratic party is illegitimate for supporting equal rights for black people. More specifically, they think the American left is illegitimate because they receive countless votes from black people. Because they think votes cast by black people are inherently illegitimate, and they think the government that allowed black people to have votes, and rights, is illegitimate. We actually had kind of a big war about this. They think that was illegitimate too.

This is the cornerstone of American politics, and has been since American politics was invented. There's really no good reason everybody shouldn't know this!

But there is a bad reason, which is that the people who think black voters are illegitimate think American history is illegitimate too.

edit: I decided to provide a source, but in order to demonstrate my irritation with the fact that people don't understand this, the source is Wikipedia.

wikipedia said:
In American politics, the Southern strategy refers to a Republican Party strategy of gaining political support for certain candidates in the Southern United States by appealing to racism against African Americans.[1][2][3][4][5]
Though the "Solid South" had been a longtime Democratic Party stronghold due to the Democratic Party's defense of slavery before the American Civil War and segregation for a century thereafter, many white Southern Democrats stopped supporting the party following the civil rights plank of the Democratic campaign in 1948 (triggering the Dixiecrats), the African-American Civil Rights Movement, the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965, and desegregation.
The strategy was first adopted under future Republican President Richard Nixon and Republican Senator Barry Goldwater[6][7] in the late 1960s.[8] The strategy was successful in winning 5 formerly Confederate states in both the 1964 and 1968 presidential elections. It contributed to the electoral realignment of some Southern states to the Republican Party, but at the expense of losing more than 90 percent of black voters to the Democratic Party. As the twentieth century came to a close, the Republican Party began trying to appeal again to black voters, though with little success.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

* if you make some idiotic comment about the party of Lincoln just assume I'm preemptively despairing of you, unless you're Bulbo in which case lulz we're good
 
As a Republican you can take this kind of bullshit and shove it straight up your ass.

Democrats love to toss the word Racism around as the ultimate copout. I remember in 2008 democrats saying this country as a whole was too racist to even elect a black man president. That was their copout if indeed Obama failed to get elected. Then when polls shifted in Romney's favor it was because the USA is too racists to re-elect a black man. That same dumb ass line has been used for EVERY SINGLE POLITICAL SITUATION ever since he has taken office. If he is unable to get his way, it only happened because whomever was against his ideas were racists. It is tiresome, and the ultimate copout. I really do not think there has been a debate since Obama was elected where race did not become a part of the conversation.


I can see why some people, who aren't racist, but are conservative, would find the claim of racism as the end-all-be-all excuse and dislike it being used in place of conversation. I totally get that.

However, any person with two eyes can see the certain fringe of the party that is undoubtedly racist, and despite seeing that, conservative representatives have thrown their lot in with that same group. And it's easy to then see how people could see that 2+2=racist.

What's worse, is it ISN'T much of a stretch to see why people would think that the GOP is racist, or has some underlying racism when it comes to it's decision making. The GOP of the last 5 years has been one that shits on the poor, the disenfranchised, women, gay people, immigrants, anyone that isn't christian, etc. They're practically the poster children of intolerance, so it's not hard to come to the conclusion that the same group pushing the the same examples of intolerance I mentioned might also be racist. Especially when you see pictures of people waving a confederate flag in front of the white house, and no one in those groups telling the those people to move the fuck on. They don't say "We do not want to be associated with you." They don't say "We dislike the president for X, Y, and Z, but because he's black isn't one of them." Instead, those people all come together in some weird, vitriolic hatred of a man that, for the last 5 years, has been the target of some of the most hateful speech I've ever seen. Outright lies that republicans refuse to condemn, and instead go along with. John McCain was the only republican in the republican party with enough of a sac to tell a woman that Obama wasn't a Muslim.

The GOP hasn't done anything to shed the badge of racism, nor do they seem to want to. So while I understand why some conservatives might get pissy about being labeled a racist, you are who you associate with. My mother taught me that. When I was 6.

So, I"m sorry it offends you that you might get called a racist, but throwing your hat in with people that seem to be racist will tend to get you labeled as one.
 
So what is the current situation? Is there a vote happening soon? They are really pushing it.

Supposed to be a vote later today with the new senate bill that kicks the can for 3-4 months down the road. No one knows if dipshit Boehner will allow a vote or what will happen in the house but they're sort of running out of options.
 
This is true, but you don't seem to understand WHY they disavow the legitimacy of Democratic governance. Did you notice that it didn't start happening until the Civil Rights Act? Did you ever consider why it would be that Southern states used to have strong policies in favor of public schooling until the schools were desegregated, and now hatred of public schools is a tenet of faith on the right? Have you heard the rumblings on the right about the Democrats creating a "dependent majority" of voters who are lazy and stupid and will vote in exchange for handouts? Any clue as to what that might be a reference to?

The Republican party* doesn't think Obama is illegitimate because he's black. They think the Democratic party is illegitimate for supporting equal rights for black people. More specifically, they think the American left is illegitimate because they receive countless votes from black people. Because they think votes cast by black people are inherently illegitimate, and they think the government that allowed black people to have votes, and rights, is illegitimate. We actually had kind of a big war about this. They think that was illegitimate too.

This is the cornerstone of American politics, and has been since American politics was invented. There's really no good reason everybody shouldn't know this!

But there is a bad reason, which is that the people who think black voters are illegitimate think American history is illegitimate too.


* if you make some idiotic comment about the party of Lincoln just assume I'm preemptively despairing of you, unless you're Bulbo in which case lulz we're good

Spot on, though you really can't ignore the absolute venom directed at Hispanics either, and this is fairly recent. Hispanics went for republicans 50/50 during the bush era. They're now almost 90/10 in favor of democrats.

Three guesses why and the first two don't count.
 
Yeah, and they got pretty much what they wanted, more time. You really think they'll sit the next one out? They got a get out of jail free card and permission to pull this shit again. This is in no way the "best they could come up with".



How do you figure? They went all in this time and got bailed out by democrats again. What do they have to lose to do this again? Kick the can for 3 months again?

Right. I strongly feel one of the underlying TP goals is to stall and prevent anything from getting done. Because if nothing gets done, government appears ineffective and it's self fulfilling with their beliefs. So it does not matter if they lose battles, as long as those battles take the most out of the government's limited time, they win.
 
No that's what we have now, which, as I understand, is a whole lot different than how other nations do it.
It varies per system, but basically, people vote for parties across a larger area, as opposed to individual candidates across many smaller areas. This helps ensure that smaller parties are better represented. A party that might get 20% of the vote across a large area that would normally lose in individual districts due to FPTP would be guaranteed at least some representation via a proportional system (presuming they meet some minimum threshold). This prevents gerrymandering, in which one party can leverage 55% of the vote to get 75%+ seats, and it no longer funnels people into two parties due to the spoiler effect.

I'd like to see us move to a two step system for House races, in which voters within each state vote for a party first, followed by ranking candidates within that party (similar to an alternative vote model), so that preferred candidates can be prioritized into any seats a party might win.

Or count a vote for a politician as a vote for the party.
 
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