Same here. I've mained Link in every installment and generally think he's the most fun character to play, but he needs a hell of a lot more buffs in key (ground-based) attacks than in something so situational. The fact that Sakurai's concerned about this alone making Link overpowered is really baffling.
Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS Thread 3: Ridley's Believe It or Not!
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Same here. I've mained Link in every installment and generally think he's the most fun character to play, but he needs a hell of a lot more buffs in key (ground-based) attacks than in something so situational. The fact that Sakurai's concerned about this alone making Link overpowered is really baffling.
C.Olimar788
Member
A Meteor Smash is a special type of attack (usually an aerial) that send an opponent almost straight downward. Examples include Ganondorf's down-aerial and Mario's forward-aerial.
Make sure not to confuse Meteor Smashes with Spikes. Meteor Smashes are attacks that are within an angle hard-coded into the game and thus their knockback can be cancelled (a Meteor Cancel) by simply jumping or performing an Up-B. A Spike is much more dangerous, as it send an opponent at a low angle that isn't quite low enough to trigger the game seeing it as a Meteor Smash, and thus they cannot be Meteor Cancelled. An example of a Spike would be Fox's Reflector in Melee (hence Shinespike).
In Brawl, Spikes are practically nonexistent due to the angle that defines Meteor Smashes being extended greatly.
But no one plays Brawl anymore anyway.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
All it really tells me is that you shouldnt have this mindset when we have absolutely idea how link plays in smash 4, you guys are just assuming that its just brawl link but in smash 4, I hohgly doubt thats how it works, saying sakurai doesnt understand whats happening with this link that he is currently working on is naive.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
double post
C.Olimar788
Member
Brawl was basically a case study on Sakurai having no clue how to balance his own game, so being concerned that he still doesn't is pretty understandable.
I don't know what Sakurai bases for balance. Does he actually look at tier lists or actually watch tournament play videos? I wish we could know. Even if he isn't balancing for tournament players exclusively (he shouldn't, really), even casual players can see character differences easily. I know many people hate Meta Knight regardless if they're casuals or tourney players since he was clearly broken with his speed.
As for this update, it's pretty cool. Any update explaining character and balance changes are really interesting, even if they aren't final, and it especially gives us insight that Sakurai is taking balance seriously from Brawl. Link having an effective Meteor Smash is great, but considering the ending lag of Dair, it probably wouldn't be used so much unless Sakurai reduces the ending lag.
Link definitely does need some buffs that supports his projectile options. Toon Link may be speedier but Link should be stronger. Link could have been good in Brawl, he has the hitboxes for it, and some frame advantages, but overall he's slower. He needed some aerial mobility. He definitely needs a better recovery. Maybe a higher second jump and Spin Attack. His horizontal recovery is also awful, it could be fixed if his Clawshot was larger. The Clawshot is long as hell in Zelda games but extremely short in Smash, it's no real excuse. It could aid him horizontally.
As for this update, it's pretty cool. Any update explaining character and balance changes are really interesting, even if they aren't final, and it especially gives us insight that Sakurai is taking balance seriously from Brawl. Link having an effective Meteor Smash is great, but considering the ending lag of Dair, it probably wouldn't be used so much unless Sakurai reduces the ending lag.
Link definitely does need some buffs that supports his projectile options. Toon Link may be speedier but Link should be stronger. Link could have been good in Brawl, he has the hitboxes for it, and some frame advantages, but overall he's slower. He needed some aerial mobility. He definitely needs a better recovery. Maybe a higher second jump and Spin Attack. His horizontal recovery is also awful, it could be fixed if his Clawshot was larger. The Clawshot is long as hell in Zelda games but extremely short in Smash, it's no real excuse. It could aid him horizontally.
That's pretty unfair, especially after making two games which aren't berated for this. He has gone on record saying Brawl was made with the casual "Wii" audience in mind, so obviously balancing was not a priority there. How much of a priority it will be in the next game remains to be seen, but it's not like he's incapable of making a game like Melee again.
SenorArdilla
Member
How many characters did Sakurai personally do balance checks for in Melee? How about Brawl?
Green Mamba
Member
Melee Link to Brawl Link was one of the most unnecessary nerfs I have ever seen in a fighting game.
eh.. Melee link wasn't to hot either, 64 like was meh.
Green Mamba
Member
That's what I was saying. Melee Link is "meh" at best. Then he was nerfed in Brawl, for god only knows what reason.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
whats the case study for melee and 64 then?
Brawl MURDERED most of the top characters from Melee:
Fox -> from godly to average
Sheik -> from godly to bad
Jiggs -> from godly to FECAL MATTER
Peach -> from good to bad
Falcon -> from good to TERRIBAD
Samus -> from okay to HORRIBLE
Ganon -> from okay to HORRIBLE
Link -> from bad to WHY.JPG
The sad part is they weren't even nerfed due to engine changes (hitstun, l cancelling), a lot of their moves are straight up worse, whether that means slower, deals less damage, less knockback, worse hitboxes... pretty much the only Melee characters that were meaningfully buffed were Pikachu, Kirby and Game and Watch.
Sakurai's a jerk =(
Low tier =/
But at least he had some godlike combos! Watch Isai use him.
You must not know that most Brawl players suck with Meta Knight, or most of the best characters in the game.
Some of the casuals think Olimar sucks, and are amazed when I sweep a match with him.
Of course, in higher levels of play, it wasn't balanced.
Troubled Bat
Member
Is considered the lowest tierd character. But that boomerang into hook shot is the best thing ever!
Casuals run "tournaments" at my school with items on and meta knight banned because he's "too broken".
You can't make this shit up. I'm pretty sure Meta Knight is universally known as an overpowered fighting game character. Probably more than ST Akuma or Dark Phoenix at this point.
Sometimes I wonder how exactly Sakurai balances the game. I get the feeling he does so on every stage and with items on... but does that change the tier list that much? I know for a fact that Fox in Melee and MK in Brawl dominate in any mode you want to throw at them.
Kinda wish he would just balance the game around no items/neutral stage play. The way I see it, you kill two birds with one stone (game will be balanced for competitive play and casual play with items on), whereas balancing with items on results in characters like Meta Knight in competitive play =/
DrROBschiz
Member
If this game sucks are we officially endorsing Project M or are we just going back to Melee...
I guess this varies.
Because I definitely do not believe Meta Knight is universally broken. Competitively, yes, there is a case.
He requires some skill, and pretty decent knowledge of the meta game to use meaningfully. I have floored many MK players at tournaments at my local game store. And they'd claim to only use him because they heard "he's the best character in the game".
Even among other casual players, they think Ike is better because of his KO potential. When I told them he's garbage in high level play, they didn't believe me. MK isn't some instawin character, unless they really really know what they're doing.
Lol, well at least MK has a pretty bad final smash. <.<
You're joking right? Link has been bottom tier in every single installment. You want me to be optimistic that he's going to change it up this time around? After what he did to him in Brawl, and seeing him concerned that making his dair meteor will make Link OP tells me all I need to know. He has no idea how to fix Link.
Except it's not. Only the tip will cause a meteor. Again while it's not a bad thing, it's definitely situational. He's not going to meteor with every dair now. Not even close.
Obviously because he's a legendary hero and can handle being pushed to the side to showcase the new and fancy Toon Link. /sarcasm
That's what I'm saying though. Yes they were all nerfed, but the changes themselves were "minor" in the sense that not a single one of those characters were fundamentally changed. If the nerfs you mentioned is what Sakurai means by "balancing" then yeah, Link is screwed again lol.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Could we stop assuming one person makes all the design decisions, here are the designers for Brawl:
Planning & Level Design: Kazuhiro Irie, Kenichi Niwano, Masaya Kuninaga, Yoshiyasu Okawara, Takeshi Suzuki, Shintaro Kataoka, Miki Yakabe, Masayuki Tada, Takeshi Suganuma, Kunhiko Nakata, Norihiko Yonesaka, Kou Arai & Daisuke Shimizu
14 people, plus Sakurai, balanced the game.
Planning & Level Design: Kazuhiro Irie, Kenichi Niwano, Masaya Kuninaga, Yoshiyasu Okawara, Takeshi Suzuki, Shintaro Kataoka, Miki Yakabe, Masayuki Tada, Takeshi Suganuma, Kunhiko Nakata, Norihiko Yonesaka, Kou Arai & Daisuke Shimizu
14 people, plus Sakurai, balanced the game.
DrROBschiz
Member
I love that Peach earned a place in top tier over the years..
When I discovered how good she was I thought I was the only one for the longest time until ya know... the internet
When I discovered how good she was I thought I was the only one for the longest time until ya know... the internet
voltronbadA
Member
Man so many of those videos highlighted Adult Link's HORRIBLE recovery. I sincerely hope that Sakurai buffed his recovery as well
It's a lot easier to just say Sakurai
but if you insist
Kazuhiro Irie, Kenichi Niwano, Masaya Kuninaga, Yoshiyasu Okawara, Takeshi Suzuki, Shintaro Kataoka, Miki Yakabe, Masayuki Tada, Takeshi Suganuma, Kunhiko Nakata, Norihiko Yonesaka, Kou Arai, Daisuke Shimizu & Masahiro Sakurai pls free link ; _ ;
Could ANY of them actually play as MK though? Everyone I know knows MK is broken in PRO matches, but none of us can play as MK for shit. MK being banned doesn't mean anything in itself. When you can't play him MK doesn't really have anything going for him. Weak smashes, weak B moves and pretty light to top it. At least he's fast all around, but that only makes him annoying since he lacks a move with a real killing potential until you're really good with him.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
It's a lot easier to just say Sakurai
but if you insist
Kazuhiro Irie, Kenichi Niwano, Masaya Kuninaga, Yoshiyasu Okawara, Takeshi Suzuki, Shintaro Kataoka, Miki Yakabe, Masayuki Tada, Takeshi Suganuma, Kunhiko Nakata, Norihiko Yonesaka, Kou Arai, Daisuke Shimizu & Masahiro Sakurai pls free link ; _ ;
Yeah its easier and I agree, but just because "you" can tell the difference, just repeating "damn you sakurai" for everything just creates a bad stigma, which is repeated throughout the community.
...there's four smash games? Last time I counted they were three.
And Mario's aerial fwd+A, or link's aerial down+A are meteor smashes, btw. Attacks that will spike, as if in tennis, your enemies if they connect in mid air. Were godly in SSB and Melee, but have been downplayed in Brawl in favor of ledge grabs. Always super satisfying to use: if done right, you can easily KO a foe with 30 percent damage.
Link has changed very little across each installment. He has the same relative move set and attributes within each Smash game. He's slow, has a terrible recovery, and has little options to escape pressure on his shield. All these traits are in each Smash game for Link. His only strengths lie in his projectiles, his average ability to combo, his decent range, and his KO options.
All those strengths were practically nullified, in Brawl by the engine changes alone. Coupled with some modifications to how strong/weak some of his moves are and also how the boomerang and Up B worked, he was made an even worse character than he already was.
This Dair change shows to me Sakurai (and his team) don't have a clear understanding of what Link's (current) move set's strengths are and what problems he suffers. Unless Sakurai has buffed the character's speed (which isn't something I expect because for the past 3 games he's intentionally kept him slow and now with Toon Link existing again there has to be a speed difference) or the engine changes in Smash 4 restore some of what he lost in Brawl, then I have no reason to believe or have any potential faith Sakurai will actually "fix" Link.
I'm not being naive by looking at the past three installments, while also already being shown his move set is roughly the same thing again from screens and the limited footage we have to claim that he doesn't know how to buff Link. And that this shows to not have any expectations for there to be actual balance, again.
Basically, I have low expectations and this pic of the day reinforced my low expectations. It's possible he's done other changes to Link, but this one is not a good example of showing he has any understanding of what Link's problems have always been.
C.Olimar788
Member
I actually could have sworn I remembered reading that Sakurai single-handedly handled character balance in Brawl, but I can't find it now so maybe I misheard something somewhere.
Anyway, I don't understand why some people are seemingly against balancing at a competitive level. Any balance competitively trickles down and makes casual play pretty well balanced too, especially in a game like SSB where there are basically zero advanced techniques that a casual player couldn't learn to use fairly easily.
voltronbadA
Member
Maybe I'm very ignorant when it comes to game design and please fill me in because I'm sure others would like to know as well, but...
For then to be discussing balancing and re-balancing already should we assume almost all of the characters are in and pretty finalized and now they are just making smaller tweaks and adjustments as they play test them all together? I would assume it wouldn't make sense to balance all the characters, then add more characters, then go back and rebalance and adjust, then add more, etc? Could this hint to SSB4 being farther along than many assume and a spring/summer release is a possibility?
For then to be discussing balancing and re-balancing already should we assume almost all of the characters are in and pretty finalized and now they are just making smaller tweaks and adjustments as they play test them all together? I would assume it wouldn't make sense to balance all the characters, then add more characters, then go back and rebalance and adjust, then add more, etc? Could this hint to SSB4 being farther along than many assume and a spring/summer release is a possibility?
That's a great point, to my knowledge, balancing usually happens later.
They've most likely decided upon what character are going to be in the game already. They probably are balancing/tweaking characters in the game as development progresses instead of waiting near the end of the development period.
Nope. All they know is tornado and dsmash is broken and therefore he should be banned. At least that's what they said when I asked them :lol
Good point. I bet Sakurai is playing a build with 50 characters as we speak.
Chaotic-Strike
Banned
At least, Yoshi was buffed in Brawl in Melee, he was terribad especially compared to his Smash 64 counterpart. I love playing him in 64, and he's my main in Brawl.
So badass that he's played Smash Bros. games that aren't even out yet.
IceDoesntHelp
Banned
I just realized (after getting a Shiny Holo Yanma in a Pokemon TCG pack) that I want a small chance of the Pokeball Pokemon to be shiny.
To be fair that and his recovery is all he needs to be broken in casual play.
She and falco were my mains from melee.
The look on my face when my brother kicked sheik's ass with kirby at launch...... :/