Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS Thread 3: Ridley's Believe It or Not!

I really have a hard time seeing many cuts considering Toon Link of all people made it in and I would certainly think he's the lowest hanging fruit there is.

Snake is the only one I'm really iffy on, and that's for third party related reasons. Toon Link feels like a show of intent.
 
ArchedThunder said:
A. Dev time
B. This quote.
It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.

I honestly think a lot of characters from Brawl will get axed for new characters.
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I dunno, after seeing Toon Link revealed already, who seemed like one of the dudes I'd expect to see cut, and Rosalina making it in, I really have a hard time the roster's gonna be as sparse as that quote semi-implies.

Personally I think he meant that they need to focus on more than simply adding new characters, who really knows, I really don't trust game dev quotes until I see the finished project, too many times they seem to end up going completely against what they said before.
 
I see that quote trotted out all the time to argue that the roster is gonna be small and there will be cuts, and it's a little ridiculous to be honest.

Sakurai talks all the time about how he hates making cuts. And Tink wasn't included due to relevance, I don't think relevance holds any water at all in these discussions (to a very high degree).

That quote doesn't mean the roster won't touch 50. It means don't expect the focus to be on new characters. I would be very very surprised if the roster is lower than 45 in number.

Also, what is the point of introducing new characters and play styles if those are just up for cutting in the next installment? It makes creating fun characters seem awfully futile.

He's not cutting very many (if any) characters. I would bet on it.
 
Spring-Loaded said:
How well balanced are the smash games, roster-wise?
Click to expand...
Smash 64 has incredibly broken characters, but it's pretty balanced because they all have broken shit (Except Samus).

Melee has more characters and less brokeness, so inevitably there's a higher divide between the top tier and the low tier. However, I do think there was still a very wide roster of characters that was playable and they covered a range of playstyles. The bottom tier's main problem is that there's nothing worth using from them.

Brawl is a mess. Metaknight is so absurdly pumped up in damage, speed, recovery, range, and killing power that he beats everyone even without broken shit (and he does have broken shit like the infinite cape glitch and the terrible ledge mechanics). Going below that, the top tier is relatively balanced, but there are a ton of ridiculous matchups that are nigh-unwinnable. The character lowest on the tier list (Ganondorf) has at least six matchups considered nigh-unwinnable. We're not talking heavy disadvantage, we mean you might as well forfeit because he can't do shit to the opponent. If we're talking about heavy disadvantages, he has plenty of those too.

EDIT: I should state that this is all relative. There have been fighting games with worse balance than Brawl and fighting games with far, far better balance than Melee and 64.
 
Don't worry about the balancing everyone. Sakurai is on the case. Exclusively.
 
Jaeger said:
You said they had to add animations, as if they used resources from the previous games. And I assure you it's cheaper and less time consuming to use polygons versus sprites.
Click to expand...

Here's what I meant.

Without Amie here are all the animations they would HAVE to do for each Pokemon in the series ...

  • Animations
    Idle animation
    Attack animation 1
    Atack animation 2 (Some Pokemon actually only have one attack animation and some have like 3-5 but most seem to have 2)
    Hit animation
    Fainting animation

Now, with Amie you have ...

  • Amie!
    NEW Idle animation (some Pokemon, Like Talonflame and Charizard and pretty much most all birds have a "flying idle" for battles and need a completely new one for amie)
    Sad animation
    Angry animation
    Cheery animations (like attack animations there are more than 1-2-3 for some Pokemon. Same goes for the above, some have more than one sad or angry animation)
    Facial animation options that would otherwise not be needed (what reason would certain Pokemon have for having a "happy face" in battle or a well made jaw/ mouth rig set up?)
They are literally making their job a WHOLE lot harder by making these amie animations for all Pokemon.

And I never suggested sprites were cheaper or anything like that. Done of this would be possible in sprites.
But in the world of 3D game animation you have to think of time constrains, memory usage, frame counts, layering and so on (and that's not even including the research they would have to do in how best to make each Pokemon preform in their animations).

Sorry if that went a lil hard on ya, but I have been learning about this for sometime now. Trust me, you may not think Amie is a big deal but just as a feature from a time/ money perspective it's a huge undertaking and they leverage that with the fact that it's needed for their target fans (which is not the crowd of PvP players. It's the crowd that would actually appreciate seeing Pokemon treated as more than battle sprites).

Went abit off topic so I'm turning in for tonight. Later
 
GiantBreadbug said:
I see that quote trotted out all the time to argue that the roster is gonna be small and there will be cuts, and it's a little ridiculous to be honest.

Sakurai talks all the time about how he hates making cuts. And Tink wasn't included due to relevance, I don't think relevance holds any water at all in these discussions (to a very high degree).

That quote doesn't mean the roster won't touch 50. It means don't expect the focus to be on new characters. I would be very very surprised if the roster is lower than 45 in number.

Also, what is the point of introducing new characters and play styles if those are just up for cutting in the next installment? It makes creating fun characters seem awfully futile.

He's not cutting very many (if any) characters. I would bet on it.
Click to expand...

Truth.
 
Watch Da Birdie said:
The most fun of Smash Brothers is honestly the lead-up to it and seeing who gets in.

No one actually plays the game when it comes out.
Click to expand...

I played Melee with friends all the way up until Brawl came out. It was part of the school culture. We hid Gamecubes in the lockers and busted them out after school to play on hijacked classroom televisions. Good times.

Still play Brawl once in a while too when people come over.
 
Black-Wind said:
Here's what I meant.

Without Amie here are all the animations they would HAVE to do for each Pokemon in the series ...

  • Animations
    Idle animation
    Attack animation 1
    Atack animation 2 (Some Pokemon actually only have one attack animation and some have like 3-5 but most seem to have 2)
    Hit animation
    Fainting animation

Now, with Amie you have ...

  • Amie!
    NEW Idle animation (some Pokemon, Like Talonflame and Charizard and pretty much most all birds have a "flying idle" for battles and need a completely new one for amie)
    Sad animation
    Angry animation
    Cheery animations (like attack animations there are more than 1-2-3 for some Pokemon. Same goes for the above, some have more than one sad or angry animation)
    Facial animation options that would otherwise not be needed (what reason would certain Pokemon have for having a "happy face" in battle or a well made jaw/ mouth rig set up?)
They are literally making their job a WHOLE lot harder by making these amie animations for all Pokemon.

And I never suggested sprites were cheaper or anything like that. Done of this would be possible in sprites.
But in the world of 3D game animation you have to think of time constrains, memory usage, frame counts, layering and so on (and that's not even including the research they would have to do in how best to make each Pokemon preform in their animations).

Sorry if that went a lil hard on ya, but I have been learning about this for sometime now. Trust me, you may not think Amie is a big deal but just as a feature from a time/ money perspective it's a huge undertaking and they leverage that with the fact that it's needed for their target fans (which is not the crowd of PvP players. It's the crowd that would actually appreciate seeing Pokemon treated as more than battle sprites).

Went abit off topic so I'm turning in for tonight. Later
Click to expand...

I assure you, you are mighty confused on how modeling and spriting work. They don't make new "models" each time they implement a new animation. You don't animate 3D models by creating new ones for each frame of animation, as if it was a flip book. You rig and time models to perform new animations. Moving a Pokemon's head up and down as you rub it with a stylus is easy, and can be rigged and programmed to work on every character the same way, which is exactly what happened.

However, animating an attack with sprites requires much more. Artists spend hours animating characters. You are talking hundreds of frames, representing get hit animations, every possible attack that doesn't reuse animations, etc etc. Putting a frown on an already modeled characters face is not even close in comparison.

I have been spriting for over a decade, personally. I have also modeled in programs like 3dmax, and Zbrush. They are clear differences when it comes to game design, and which one is easier.

Let me break it down more directly;

riis.gif

d7r.gif


These are two different sprites, from Black & White 2. To get a back view, you had to draw an entirely new sprite. You know what they did in X/Y? Turned the camera around on a the same model already built.
 
With that said, XY fleshed out the Pokemon animation much more than sprites could ever imagine.

You will never have that feel of seeing Metagross unfolds itself when sent out, or you will never have your heart melt when Klefki "looses" its keys when it faints.

Or hell, Goomy

nWXjxFE.gif

AOgdNB5.gif
 
The thing about cuts is - I'm sure they're going to happen, but I have no idea HOW they're going to.

When we look at Melee to Brawl, I would never have expected Mewtwo to be cut at all, or Young/Toon Link to NOT be cut. Then when you take into account that Jigglypuff (one of the original 12!) seemed to be one of the last implemented (and thus likely on the "possible cuts" list as well), I don't think there's any real way to predict things.

Falco, Wolf, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer, Ness, Lucas, Ike, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, ROB, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus... I don't think there's a any way to be certain that most of the unconfirmed veterans are coming back. Most of them will, no doubt, but all of them? I doubt it.
 
Green Mamba said:
I am a little concerned what is going to happen with the stage/music representation of these non-retro series sitting in hiatus that haven't seen a new release since Brawl (Star Fox and F-Zero precisely). Hopefully they don't get cheaped out on content due to this.
Click to expand...

You know, I was actually thinking the same thing when playing Brawl last night. Hmm...

I don't think Star Fox will have any difficulty culling together ideas for stages/music. I'm sure the 3DS version will have a stage from the SF64 remake and I always thought it would be cool if they did something from the SNES one (don't forget that aside from some of the music and the Andross assist trophy, it's always languished in the shadow of 64 when it comes to Smash representation).

F-Zero's a tough one though.

jph139 said:
The thing about cuts is - I'm sure they're going to happen, but I have no idea HOW they're going to.

When we look at Melee to Brawl, I would never have expected Mewtwo to be cut at all, or Young/Toon Link to NOT be cut. Then when you take into account that Jigglypuff (one of the original 12!) seemed to be one of the last implemented (and thus likely on the "possible cuts" list as well), I don't think there's any real way to predict things.

Falco, Wolf, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer, Ness, Lucas, Ike, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, ROB, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus... I don't think there's a any way to be certain that most of the unconfirmed veterans are coming back. Most of them will, no doubt, but all of them? I doubt it.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. My heart will break a little if they cut any of the two Mother characters, though...
 
jph139 said:
Falco, Wolf, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer, Ness, Lucas, Ike, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, ROB, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus... I don't think there's a any way to be certain that most of the unconfirmed veterans are coming back. Most of them will, no doubt, but all of them? I doubt it.
Click to expand...

I'm relatively confident that the original 12 and the Melee newcomers that were also in Brawl are all safe.
 
I'M FINISHED! said:
I'm relatively confident that the original 12 and the Melee newcomers that were also in Brawl are all safe.
Click to expand...

I'd assume the same, generally, but I could justify cutting any of them. I think some cuts are more likely than others - just like some new additions are more likely than others - but you never know if we'll get a "Wii Fit Trainer" of cuts and see someone we never expected go.
 
Oh man, so she's not a heavy after all! Love how Sakurai phrased this one, btw.

Also, did anyone else saw Peach's dress as "incomplete" when put right next to Rosalina's? Haha
 
Is anyone else hoping the two versions of the game are NOT released simultaneously? I want at least a 6 month gap in between the releases otherwise it will be SSB overload. I know some of you would argue you can never have too much SSB at once, but I would get more enjoyment of the franchise by giving each version their due process.

tonyh24613 said:
zlCfzRRuuQcrDsv_yt


Pic of the day. Rosalina's got height! She is seriously tall! However, she boasts an anti-gravity effect, so she's very light.
Click to expand...

So, remembering the Mario Kart OT title, she's lost a lot of weight.
 
tonyh24613 said:
zlCfzRRuuQcrDsv_yt


Pic of the day. Rosalina's got height! She is seriously tall! However, she boasts an anti-gravity effect, so she's very light.
Click to expand...

Goddamn, she looks about as tall as Waluigi if not taller. Pretty interesting, and definitely sets her aside from Peach and Daisy as far as body structure goes.
 
jph139 said:
I'd assume the same, generally, but I could justify cutting any of them. I think some cuts are more likely than others - just like some new additions are more likely than others - but you never know if we'll get a "Wii Fit Trainer" of cuts and see someone we never expected go.
Click to expand...

The only real surprising cut made in Brawl in my opinion was Mewtwo. I didn't expect Roy or Pichu to return.
 
Aw I was kinda hoping she'd be a floaty, heavy character...if that makes sense O_o

I expect something Sonic related on Smashville on Christmas day :P

edit: oh wait, she is? Alright!
 
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