Judging by the pace of the reveals and accounting for unlockables I would guess that we are going to get somewhere around/over 10. 50+ character (counting transformations) roster is definitely happening unless we're hit with cuts.
Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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Judging by the pace of the reveals and accounting for unlockables I would guess that we are going to get somewhere around/over 10. 50+ character (counting transformations) roster is definitely happening unless we're hit with cuts.
Lord_Byron28
Member
Anime popularity and Sakurai wanted another character that could fly like Kirby. I would like Jigglypuff to be cut for a few reasons. First off there are a ton of other more relevant, interesting, popular and unique characters to draw from in the Poke universe. Second off it isn't very unique anymore to the SSB series, there are more flying characters that operate similarly. Third off it was near useless in Brawl, it was a slight wtf joke character in 64 and melee but it was a viable character and it was still somewhat relevant to the series now it is none of the above. The only reason it'll make the slot is purely because its apart of the original cast which shouldn't be the main reason to keep it in, imo.
Letterbomb
Banned
So how many newcomers do we have?
Rosalina
Megaman
Villager
Wii Fit Trainer
So that's 4...
I hope we get more.
Hate to be that guy, but you really shouldn't expect too many more newcomers. Brawl had a total of 15 new characters, and Sakurai mentioned multiple times that the roster size has "just about reached its limit". I'd expect 3-4 more newcomers; any more than that, and there will have been cuts to compensate.
Still a really fulfilling roster size, though. And what few newcomers we've received so far have all been more than exciting, in my eyes.
Brawl had 18 if you count transformations. (Ex: ZSS, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard are all their own characters)
Also bringing a character back from Brawl that already has pre-existing assets and a completed design shouldn't be nearly as difficult as creating a new character, so really it isn't correct to say "newcomer X" replaced "veteran Y" when we all know that isn't true. (Ex: Lucario replacing Mewtwo) Additionally, based on what we've seen so far the veterans have been kept largely the same from Brawl with the exceptions of Bowser, Pit, and maybe Zelda. (if Phantom is part of her moveset)
I think people are interpreting the long span between E3 and Rosalina's reveal as a sign that there aren't many newcomers, when in fact there will probably be more large reveals closer to the game's release given that Nintendo pulls this shit all the time with the promotion of their games.
Lord_Byron28
Member
I think perhaps Sakurai's comments were a bit misleading. He made similar comments leading up to Brawl and see where we are. The only reason why Melee and 64 didn't add as many characters is due to short dev time which is why we also ended up with a couple clones in Melee. Brawl also had some cuts. This is kinda what I'd like to see:
Confirmed:
Rosalina
Wii Fit Trainer
Villager
Megaman
Speculation:
Mii
Pacman
Little Mac
Takamaru
Impa
Palutena
Dixie Kong
Ridley
FE rep(Lucina, Chrom, or Anna)
Tom Nook
Female Pokemon Trainer
Cut:
Snake
Sheik
Returning:
Mewtwo
I wouldn't mind seeing characters like Jigglypuff, Ike, Lucas, and Wolf cut but idk on those possibilities. I could see Ike and Wolf cuts upsetting Smash fans as they do have their uses in the game. I also could see Lucas cuts really upsetting Mother fans.
Samurai_Heart
Member
Hmmm thread 4? Whelp subscribed and leaving again XD
So we all believe Snake will be cut, any slim hopes he won't be cut then?
So we all believe Snake will be cut, any slim hopes he won't be cut then?
EightBitNate
Member
theprodigy
Member
you sure you're not noobasuar's secret cousin
I could use an extra kidney.
Who?
Oh yeah? Well, unfortunately you won't get one from me. Little Mac is in baby!
Also, kidneys are organs.
Which is part of a human body.
Green Mamba
Member
I'm honestly starting to doubt there being secret characters at all.
Think about it this way, Brawl originally had a release date of December 3rd 2007 prior to the two (agonizing) delays however aside from the newcomers shown at the E3 2006 unveiling, no new characters were shown until Ike in the summer which was just a couple of months before the intended release. So hypothetically, if Smash releases in September then I think we can expect more information from the game starting in around May or June.
OK, so looking up the old Brawl Dojo updates, it looks like most character shown prior to around June of 2007 were just profiles for previously revealed characters. In June and July we started seeing the profiles for more returning veterans, and then it shifted to a mix of veterans and newcomers in August. The only previously revealed characters that didn't get profiles prior to August were Meta Knight and Snake who were shown in September. (hence the lack of new characters in that month aside from Ice Climbers profile) Additionally, the delay probably forced back the reveals of Sheik and Pikmin & Olimar in order to keep up anticipation prior to the game's launch, hence their reveals being in January.
August:
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Diddy Kong
September:
Ice Climbers
October:
Lucas
Sonic
King Dedede
January:
Pikmin & Olimar
Sheik
I'm not saying that the reveal style will be anything like Brawl's or that we will have as many characters, but I think one interesting facet is that Sakurai started the Dojo by first revealing mostly characters from the initial showing, and then following it up with veterans until Ike. This is similar to Smash 4 where we had the initial cast, and then for month's afterwards we got a trickle of veterans until Rosalina & Luma this month. I think what we're looking at is something of a Brawl scenario, just stretched out over a very large period of time rather than waiting until near release to show everything.
OK, so looking up the old Brawl Dojo updates, it looks like most character shown prior to around June of 2007 were just profiles for previously revealed characters. In June and July we started seeing the profiles for more returning veterans, and then it shifted to a mix of veterans and newcomers in August. The only previously revealed characters that didn't get profiles prior to August were Meta Knight and Snake who were shown in September. (hence the lack of new characters in that month aside from Ice Climbers profile) Additionally, the delay probably forced back the reveals of Sheik and Pikmin & Olimar in order to keep up anticipation prior to the game's launch, hence their reveals being in January.
August:
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Diddy Kong
September:
Ice Climbers
October:
Lucas
Sonic
King Dedede
January:
Pikmin & Olimar
Sheik
I'm not saying that the reveal style will be anything like Brawl's or that we will have as many characters, but I think one interesting facet is that Sakurai started the Dojo by first revealing mostly characters from the initial showing, and then following it up with veterans until Ike. This is similar to Smash 4 where we had the initial cast, and then for month's afterwards we got a trickle of veterans until Rosalina & Luma this month. I think what we're looking at is something of a Brawl scenario, just stretched out over a very large period of time rather than waiting until near release to show everything.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Green Mamba
Member
I mean, you would think one of those five Mario characters would have been hidden. Luigi, Toon Link, and Marth all being revealed early is also unusual (Toon Link especially, I would think if any character would be easy hidden characters it would be clones like him). Plus, Sakurai's statements on why he didn't want to do a SSE type mode; the reasoning there certainly overlaps considerably with his reasoning given in the earlier stages of the Brawl hype cycle where he said he wasn't going to care as much about secrets because it is much harder to keep things actually secret in the modern internet age.
Hm, maybe. Sakurai did have the odd reasoning with people sharing cutscenes online, so who knows, he could've made everyone available from the start because everyone would find out online anyway.
I hope not though. I want some surprises.
JStein0222
Member
Is anybody planning on going digital with this game? Are you worried considering the Christmas state of Nintendo's online services? I'm rethinking everything now. Don't know if I can trust them to get me the game digitally on day 1.
Day 1 releases have never been an issue before. What happened on Christmas, with the new NNID requirements and Pokemon Bank on top of the influx of new users just made it into the perfect storm. If they don't have whatever bottleneck is causing these issues fixed by the time Smash comes out we have a whole new slew of issues to be concerned about.
Not that it really matters for me, going physical for the inevitable boxart.
Brawl was weird in a sense because as far as veterans are concerned, any character that was historically unlocked from the start in 64 or Melee remained so in Brawl, and any character that has historically been unlockable in 64 or Melee also remained so in Brawl. What's odd is that Ness and Captain Falcon were part of the starting roster in Melee, but made secret again in Brawl possibly due to their status as unlockable characters in 64. What we could see is a return to something like Melee, where for some previously secret characters, Sakurai decided to make them a part of the starting roster (Ness + Captain Falcon) and for others he kept them hidden. (Luigi + Jigglypuff)
Of course this is all guess work considering we don't really know if Sakurai changed his mind of the concept of unlockable characters and dealing with things like 3rd parties.
I'm not sure how hidden characters are going to be handled, but what I am sure of is that Luigi, Toon Link, and Marth are starters. Sakurai isn't going to reveal hidden characters a year away from release unless they're third-parties. That would defeat the point of them being hidden in the first place.
I plan on getting physical and digital on both systems (Or, att least for Wii U).
I can't really play my copies of Melee or Brawl due to them being scratched up so bad and I really would like to always have the game on my systems.
Not really worried too much about the whole Holiday debacle, I sure that it'll be resolved by the time Smash for releases.
Well there seems to be some sense of strategy in terms of character reveals and games that have been announced. Each of the characters that have been revealed outside of the initial reveal has a game linked on their pages. Thus it would be a safe bet that some Kirby universe character is going to be revealed in January. Yoshi whenever Yoshi's New Island is released. And it will just keep going.
But there is something that Sakurai said that could be interpreted as all characters are unlocked from the start. It was something about all cutscenes unlocked from the start. But that could just mean all newcomers are going to be unlocked from the start while some veterans are locked.
Red Arremer
Member
You dreamt. The only different gender alt confirmed so far is male Wii Fit Trainer.
Don't worry, Haruka Amami from iDOLM@STER is going to be the Namco rep.
Damn. Well I hope they don't stop there. I want at least a few characters with alt costumes. Wario had one in Brawl.
Like, I don't know, Dr. Mario atl for Mario (at the same time it would be a nice nod to Melee), or OoT style Ganondorf alt for Ganondorf.
properpropaganda
Member
digital maybe with 3ds. physical for sure with wii u.
Even he's not confirmed yet. He was intentionally cryptic about it when asked on twitter.
No fucking way Shiek is cut. That would be devestating.
Red Arremer
Member
Quoting more recent quotes for this topic just to give context.
Personally, I think making all characters available from the start would be a good move. Sakurai's statement about people leaking stuff online and taking away the "charm" of unlocking stuff aside, there's also another possible reason.
Unlocking characters in fighting games is mostly a chore, especially in a game that is aimed at being fun and to play with friends. If you first have to play single player to unlock characters, or somebody doesn't have a save file with their friends' favorite characters unlocked, it's a lot less fun that way. And since characters are such a central aspect of a fighting game, even more so in a game that is founded upon making fan favorites face each other, it's wiser overall. There's still plenty of content that can be made secret - stages, trophies, modes. Because let's be honest, nobody really gives a shit if they can't play on a stage they like or with a specific item on they find fun, when at least they've got their favorite character to play with.
I believe Sheik will make it back as a way to save an extra slot. No franchise has ever had more than 5 reps before, and with Toon Link in there's only one more slot available which is going to go to Toon Zelda.
I just hope that Toon Zelda's Down-B is Tetra and not Toon Sheik.
Red Arremer
Member
Please stop clinging to numbers like that. It's dumb, and not how developing fighting game rosters works.
Ah, yes, those precious slots.
lmao. Which fighting game rosters have you developed?
theprodigy
Member
I really don't know about Toon Zelda. I feel like having Phantom Ganon as Twilight Zelda's side-b, a move that would be perfect if exclusive for Toon Zelda imo, points to her not being in the game. Then again, maybe they have identical movesets and this points to her further being in the game.
All I know is I would sooner have Groose or Ghirahim over Toon Zelda.
Red Arremer
Member
So do you honestly believe that the roster for Smash Bros. is decided like you think it is? Imagine how the meeting to draft the roster must look like.
Sakurai: "Okay, we've got time to make EXACTLY 41.7 characters, and we CANNOT exceed 5 characters per franchise."
Dev A: "Well, but, there's a few Zelda characters we think could be fun, aside from bringing back..."
Sakurai: "SILENCE! We will have only 5 Zelda characters, otherwise we will have too many Zelda slots!!"
That is exactly the argument I made on the last page; it seems unlikely to me that the Phantom would be included in Zelda's moveset if we were never going to see it with its original artstyle in the game.
I believe that Sakurai doesn't want any one single franchise to dominate the roster. I'm pretty sure thinking otherwise is delusional.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
I'm going physical with Wii U. Where's Bayo?
Not even in a sega crossover, apparently .
She's in The Wonderful 101.
theprodigy
Member
slots per franchise doesn't exist, come on
although you are very, very delusional if you think the total roster doesn't have "slots"
although you are very, very delusional if you think the total roster doesn't have "slots"
Red Arremer
Member
Of course not, but whether it's 4, 5, 6 or even 8 character for a specific franchise doesn't matter in a game that has (likely) over 40 characters. That's only a fraction of that roster.
You have to understand that when the development team first decides on a roster, there's an estimation of how many characters they can make with the time and resources they have available. They get the obvious choices (for Smash, that would Mario, Link, etc.) out of the way first and then do the characters that they deem to be interesting inclusions in terms of gameplay.
If they estimate 40 characters, but can make only 36, then the game ships with 36. If they estimate 40 characters and have time to make 42, then the game might ship with 42 (unless they decide to spend the time/resources elsewhere, which also might happen).
Do you honestly think that Mr. Game & Watch made it into the Smash franchise because Sakurai decided that the "retro franchises" needed "2 slots"? Or rather because he felt that Mr. Game & Watch would make an interesting and fun inclusion as a character in terms of gameplay?
Especially considering that your "5 reps"-theory is busted by the very own link you provided with the left over files that were found on the Brawl disc. Brawl was originally planned to have 7 (!) Zelda characters - the 5 we got in Brawl AND Toon Zelda + Toon Sheik. Heck, Pokemon even has 6 characters already in the game, and Mewtwo was also planned, which would've made it 7, and the "pra_mai" files likely would've been Plusle & Minun, bringing it up to a total of 8.
Obviously, some of those characters have been scrapped somewhere down the line, and we don't know why, but it certainly would debunk your "omg we cannot have more than 5 characters per franchise" theory.
Slots per franchise as a function of total roster size almost certainly exists, unless you think Sakurai would realistically include 10 Mario characters in a roster of 50. It defies logic and the precedent set by every other game in the series.
Sakurai doesn't count the form changers as separate, he even stated that the idea behind the Pokemon Trainer was to get more Pokemon in without taking up more slots. This is one big reason I think Sheik is returning, and I said so on the last page. I'm just hoping we get Tetra as Toon Zelda's Down-B to mix things up.