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[onionfrog]

I guess saying it's like Marvel 3 if it were made to be like SF2 wouldn't be entirely off, but it's a pretty different game from Marvel no matter how you look at it.

Thanks.

It's more like Street Fighter rather than Marvel. Combos are pretty short in this game. You have ABC chains, but your A and B moves are your special cancelable normals. You'll be doing usually small and quick hit confirms.

To answer your question though, probably not.

Interesting. I guess I might pick it up if the amazon price drops to $15ish.

 

[Hitokage]

Thanks.
Am I correct to assume chain style combos since its 'anime'!?

As said previously, it has A B C chains. D is the assist button, and B+C is another standard normal input. The game isn't that big on command normals so you have a smaller tool set to work with than even a game like Blazblue. Specials generally can't be canceled into supers, but you can do assist cancels that can effectively act as FADCs for either combos or safety.

Like a bread and butter for Sasara, the Valkyrie Profile looking character, in the corner with some assists is:

A B qcb+B f+D dp+C B+C

Some chars get a touch more elaborate, but generally stuff is kept pretty short and sweet. One character has a hilarious 150% combo that requires so much setup and unlikely initial conditions that it will never happen in an actual match.

 

[alstein]

These barriers are insanely hard to bust through for players without that experience edge, and not being able to execute can prevent you from playing the "real" game (the actual hard part) for a very long time.

Divekick is one extreme, where you can get straight to the "real" game part in minutes and completely ignore execution. Most fighting games, even Smash games, are very complicated to even play correctly and it really does put off a huge portion of the potential competitive player base.

Having more games that break that barrier down a little bit (not to the extreme of DK) would be a good thing. Killer Instinct does a decent job of letting you combo so so easily that you can actually play the real game in shorter order. Not every game should swing this way, but some definitely should.

My issue is this: I want to play a fighting game. I don't want to have to practice a fighting game.

If I can't learn the game by playing it and have to spend hours in training mode in a boring grindout, I'd just play something else. To me SF4 is the worst offender in this regard due to its huge reliance on set play (which is the antithesis of yomi-style play)

That said, give me SamSho2 fierce slashes (and Samsho had its execution fiend chars as well) over KI-style boring dial-a-combos.

 

[oneida]

For you, awesome. I don't see the point in weighing one against another, personally. I like games that manage a balance. Just like most things in life.

All games with a controller* balance execution with something, I don't see a place for one frame links in fighting games.


*even if you are the controller

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I honestly just think that people have preferences and want those preferences catered too. Some people mainly enjoy the strategic parts of FGs others enjoy the dexterity and feel when landing hard combos/moves. I don't think there is an ideal, just what people prefer. And that's what we have in fighting games today. A variety.

That's false. There is no variety. You just have combos that take practice and harder combos that take more practice.

Ultrachen had an almost adequate monday featuring ST. And they went on about how you can be successful at the game without combos. What game today exists today that's like that?

Aris not wanting to play TTT2 after revisiting Soul Calibur II is another good example of this.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

That's false. There is no variety. You just have combos that take practice and harder combos that take more practice.

Ultrachen had an almost adequate monday featuring ST. And they went on about how you can be successful at the game without combos. What game today exists today that's like that?

Brawl(I think, I remember this being a complaint)....Divekick.....

And there is variety. Just because most FGs out there have a common trope doesn't mean there isn't a variety.

Besides I honestly don't put ST on this pedestal that most people do. Its mainly a progenitor to what we see today.

Aris not wanting to play TTT2 is just him enjoying SCII way more. He LOVES SCII and has gone on record to saying its his favorite FG of all time. There's a lot of bias there lol. I could also argue that his comparisons between SCII and TTT2 are kinda wack because the two games are played differently.

 

[Shouta]

That's false. There is no variety. You just have combos that take practice and harder combos that take more practice.

Ultrachen had an almost adequate monday featuring ST. And they went on about how you can be successful at the game without combos. What game today exists today that's like that?

Gundam VS! >=D

SF4 can be played without focusing on harder combos but then you have to be much more vigilant in footsies be ready to confirm into easy combos. A lot of my wins with T.hawk recently have just been me walking back and counter-poking with shit. I've gone a full set without every doing a SPD, lol.

 

[Curry-Hakase]

One of the biggest things I find appealing about "Anime" fighters though is the freedom you get in their combo mechanics.
You can get creative with combos to suit your style of play instead of having combo paths predetermined by things like frame data (oh this move +X on block, so I can link this move with X frames of start up).

Downside is that the developer can't possibly check every single aspect to avoid abuse (ex. Infinites/Touch of deaths in Marvel, or combos that go on for too long in BBCS).

"You don't die when you get killed, you die when you get styled on"

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I remember when Team Spooky streamed Arcana Heart 3 like for a long time during release. And Sabin talked about how they couldn't play properly because no one set aside training mode time to actually learn their combos.

Then Marvel 3 came out and the game went south.

 

[RecklessWolf]

I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of wanting to be good at something without practicing. Maybe I'm in the minority here. I mean you can play without practicing but why shouldn't you be surprised when you don't find the same level of success as someone who does?

 

[alstein]

One of the biggest things I find appealing about "Anime" fighters though is the freedom you get in their combo mechanics.
You can get creative with combos to suit your style of play instead of having combo paths predetermined by things like frame data (oh this move +X on block, so I can link this move with X frames of start up).

Downside is that the developer can't possibly check every single aspect to avoid abuse (ex. Infinites/Touch of deaths in Marvel, or combos that go on for too long in BBCS).

"You don't die when you get killed, you die when you get styled on"

I consider it a false freedom- you still don't have creativity,there's still an optimal combo in every situation- it just adds complexity. The same principles apply for the most part.

Anime fighters do offer more creativity in movement- some moreso than others.

One thing I liked about Persona Arena was that it had a bit of a ST vibe to it, and the game was about movement much more than doing difficult combos. (just wish Persona had more development time to improve it)

I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of wanting to be good at something without practicing. Maybe I'm in the minority here. I mean you can play without practicing but why shouldn't you be surprised when you don't find the same level of success as someone who does?

You learn through experience playing the game- Playing the game itself and exploring during gameplay (and maybe watching vids of matches) should be the only practice necessary. It shouldn't require any more than trivial amounts of time in a mode where you're not playing another person.

It's amazing how often I run into lab monsters who don't know what to do when you just break their expectations of proper gameplay.

 

[Beckx]

My issue is this: I want to play a fighting game. I don't want to have to practice a fighting game.

Yeah. To me this generation of fighting games can be summed up by the need to search for each character's BnBs.

I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of wanting to be good at something without practicing. Maybe I'm in the minority here. I mean you can play without practicing but why shouldn't you be surprised when you don't find the same level of success as someone who does?

That's not what alstein is saying. He's talking about getting expertise through actual play against humans (good) versus "spend hours in solo training mode memorizing strings" (bad). He's not saying "I want to be good without experience."

Fighting games do suffer from the mentality that to really enjoy multiplayer, you need to be spending a lot of time solo. Is there any other video game scene like that? It's the antithesis of the FPS scene at least.

 

[Silky]

harada wants to make a tekken for PS4

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of wanting to be good at something without practicing. Maybe I'm in the minority here. I mean you can play without practicing but why shouldn't you be surprised when you don't find the same level of success as someone who does?

No I completely agree and understand.

Only I don't like staying practice mode for is for things like anti-character stuff since I learn better in the moment than in practice mode.

 

[Rhapsody]

One of the biggest things I find appealing about "Anime" fighters though is the freedom you get in their combo mechanics.
You can get creative with combos to suit your style of play instead of having combo paths predetermined by things like frame data (oh this move +X on block, so I can link this move with X frames of start up).

Downside is that the developer can't possibly check every single aspect to avoid abuse (ex. Infinites/Touch of deaths in Marvel, or combos that go on for too long in BBCS).

"You don't die when you get killed, you die when you get styled on"

The only problem I find is that on a higher level, the freedom gets cut and you're back to pretty much doing what's optimal each time (like with most fighters). There's only a small number of games that let you get pretty creative without the cost of too many wasted resources, damage reduction, or ender for oki.

 

[Shouta]

I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of wanting to be good at something without practicing. Maybe I'm in the minority here. I mean you can play without practicing but why shouldn't you be surprised when you don't find the same level of success as someone who does?

Playing = Practicing.

The idea that you have to go into a mode to practice something is generally counter-intuitive to people because outside of head-to-head competitions, you typically learn by experiencing it first-hand. You don't get better at organizing events by practicing it, you get better by doing it, etc.

 

[alstein]

Yeah. To me this generation of fighting games can be summed up by the need to search for each character's BnBs.



That's not what alstein is saying. He's talking about getting expertise through actual play against humans (good) versus "spend hours in solo training mode memorizing strings" (bad). He's not saying "I want to be good without experience."

Well, I'm from the older generation of FG players as well- you learned BnB's back in the day, though due to lack of internet and arcades, you often had imperfect information- the advantages Japan had back in the 90s were much much stronger than they are today because the Japanese had a much larger pool of players, and that was more necessary back then.

OG arcade hounds tend to have very high adaptation skills due to this, but that can be a double-edged sword today with how quickly optimization occurs. This is one reason I think I've liked poverty more the past few years- you have to figure more things out on the fly, and the reason I really like VF. VF is a game where you can really take something totally away from your opponent if you're willing to plan for it. This is the biggest reason I think folks get frustrated with VF- it really is a game where when you find the answers, the other guy can change the questions.

It's also the reason I wore out the K button on my stick when playing Vanessa. Some folks just don't learn.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I usually compare practice mode to shooting ball in the gym or something. Honestly Fighting games are the closest you'll get to a physical sport.

 

[Kimosabae]

I usually compare practice mode to shooting ball in the gym or something. Honestly Fighting games are the closest you'll get to a physical sport.

Exactly. Which is why I suspect some people have an issue with games/FGs being related to sports: they've never actually played a sport competitively; so they may not see the very obvious analogies.

Execution requires intellectual determinations and discipline that are worthy of respect. Just like learning the mechanics of throwing a football, shooting a basketball, or a weight lifting routine. Personally, I will always value the player that exhibits high-execution and strategy over the player that simply exhibits strategy. The latter has a deficiency in competitive spirit. This is why Daigo is my favorite FG player. He's the most balanced I've seen in terms of this.

I think there's still a lot of maturing to do in regards to thinking about this subject in our community. Part of me thinks that will only happen if the rewards for playing FGs competitively increase dramatically.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Well, I'm from the older generation of FG players as well- you learned BnB's back in the day, though due to lack of internet and arcades, you often had imperfect information- the advantages Japan had back in the 90s were much much stronger than they are today because the Japanese had a much larger pool of players, and that was more necessary back then.

OG arcade hounds tend to have very high adaptation skills due to this, but that can be a double-edged sword today with how quickly optimization occurs. This is one reason I think I've liked poverty more the past few years- you have to figure more things out on the fly, and the reason I really like VF. VF is a game where you can really take something totally away from your opponent if you're willing to plan for it. This is the biggest reason I think folks get frustrated with VF- it really is a game where when you find the answers, the other guy can change the questions.

It's also the reason I wore out the K button on my stick when playing Vanessa. Some folks just don't learn.

The question and answer are always Beat Knuckle.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of wanting to be good at something without practicing. Maybe I'm in the minority here. I mean you can play without practicing but why shouldn't you be surprised when you don't find the same level of success as someone who does?

It's because, depending on your background, you consider a fighting game to be:
1) punch/kick/sword the other guy until he stops moving
2) footsies & frame traps

If you ask some random player if they're good at fighting games, they consider the above definitions and go "hells yeah I'm good at fighting games", which might be true or might just be delusionary.

If instead you ask them if they're good at X fighting game, they be like "hells yeah I'm good, well at least I would be if it weren't for <insert game- or character-specific mechanic>, that shit's so cheap/dumb/time consuming".

The disconnect between thinking skills transfer over completely or even partially between superficially similar street fighter clones seems to be a blocking factor for a lot of people.

 

[vocab]

People tend to forget that there are people who play fighting games and only play fighting games. If you put as much time into the genre as they do, you would easily get better.

 

[Curry-Hakase]

The only problem I find is that on a higher level, the freedom gets cut and you're back to pretty much doing what's optimal each time (like with most fighters). There's only a small number of games that let you get pretty creative without the cost of too many wasted resources, damage reduction, or ender for oki.

That's true, I'm probably too biased as well from picking up GG and BB this past gen after playing traditional fighters exclusively for the longest time haha.
The way the match ups, tools and neutral work in those games are so dynamic; it's the reason why they're deep.
It would be nice to discuss the gameplay aspects of the ASW fighters but don't want to derail the topic any further.

Anyways, I boil down execution as a cost for depth/more options. It can be a good or a bad thing depending on how balanced it is. (Arbitrary complexity is stupid though, fuck you Raging Storm)
I don't really think there's a wrong side to this argument, there are so many fighters out their now that anyone can find one that would suit their taste.

 

[SousedLouse]

That doesn't address my premise: that the FGC expresses wants that their games cater to some LCD to foster adoption of the games they play. There's a reason why this discussion about execution barriers in fighting games comes up all the time in discussions regarding growth and acceptance.

Just for the sake of clarification, could you please explain what "LCD" refers to? I tried looking it up in the context of competitive games, but all I found were serial codes for TVs.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Just for the sake of clarification, could you please explain what "LCD" refers to? I tried looking it up in the context of competitive games, but all I found were serial codes for TVs.

lowest common denominator

 

[MikeBreezy92]

It's because, depending on your background, you consider a fighting game to be:
1) punch/kick/sword the other guy until he stops moving
2) footsies & frame traps

If you ask some random player if they're good at fighting games, they consider the above definitions and go "hells yeah I'm good at fighting games", which might be true or might just be delusionary.

If instead you ask them if they're good at X fighting game, they be like "hells yeah I'm good, well at least I would be if it weren't for <insert game- or character-specific mechanic>, that shit's so cheap/dumb/time consuming".

The disconnect between thinking skills transfer over completely or even partially between superficially similar street fighter clones seems to be a blocking factor for a lot of people.

Wait what?

People tend to forget that there is people who play fighting games and only play fighting games. If you put as much time into the genre as they do, you would easily get better.

That's kinda what Keits was getting at. A lot of the executional stuff nowadays is easy for him because he's been playing for so long.

 

[Beckx]

Just for the sake of clarification, could you please explain what "LCD" refers to? I tried looking it up in the context of competitive games, but all I found were serial codes for TVs.

lowest common denominator.

The argument here is that complicated systems enhance the skill gap in fighting games in a positive way and that the "LCD" folks want to remove them, harming the game. It's a strawman.

 

[Kimosabae]

lowest common denominator.

The argument here is that complicated systems enhance the skill gap in fighting games in a positive way and that the "LCD" folks want to remove them, harming the game. It's a strawman.

Yeah, no. No one has even mentioned "skill gaps" yet, which isn't even an aspect of the discussion we're currently having about execution barriers and ceilings. You're failing to follow the discussion and shoehorning it into a trope. That is the real strawman, here.

 

[Keits]

Wait what?



That's kinda what Keits was getting at. A lot of the executional stuff nowadays is easy for him because he's been playing for so long.

In 2001, i was struggling to get Sakura CvS2 short short short shoryuken down. Now I do that kind of stuff first try without thinking and rarely, if ever, miss it.

If we keep making games that focus on the SAME types of execution, the players with experience will also have a large enough edge at game launch that a large percentage of potential players will be put off.

When MvC3 came out, or even in beta at events, L M H S jump M M H Super was derp easy for anyone old. Many players who started their competitive fighting game career with SF4 struggled with a concept as "basic" as this. Some stuck it out, others didnt.

 

[Kimosabae]

I
If we keep making games that focus on the SAME types of execution, the players with experience will also have a large enough edge at game launch that a large percentage of potential players will be put off.

Exactly. FGs need to deviate from the SF2 template more. I want to see an established FG developer put some serious resources towards one this generation. If not an established dev, hopefully a publisher will fund someone less so.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Exactly. FGs need to deviate from the SF2 template more. I want to see an established FG developer put some serious resources towards one this generation. If not an established dev, hopefully a publisher will fund someone less so.

It took a decade for the greater FGC to accept Smash as a fighting game.

 

[Beckx]

Yeah, no. No one has even mentioned "skill gaps" yet, which isn't even an aspect of the discussion we're currently having about execution barriers and ceilings. You're failing to follow the discussion and shoehorning it into a trope. That is the real strawman, here.

Feel free to substitute skill ceiling or execution barrier into my sentence, if you feel that skill gap changed your meaning. I think it still works, though I'm baffled at why skill gap offends you. Having a skill gap is a *good* thing. We just disagree on the best way to make sure the game doesn't flatten out the skill levels.

And I don't hate complicated systems, btw. I appreciate the hell out of VO:OT, though I'd rather actually play EXVS, which is far less complicated.

Edit: I also hold a belief that may be totally wrong: which is that if you stripped out the more complicated systems, the same players would still rise to the top, because they are better at the fundamental skills that drive victory in multiplayer gaming: hand eye coordination and strategic thinking. It's why I use the FPS analogy, because the player who aims faster, more accurately, and more consistently will win the one v one most of the time because of their basic skill advantage. It's like the sports saying "you can't teach speed." So my view is generally that I want simpler systems that still allow for high skill ceilings and (therefore) significant skill gaps.

 

[Keits]

Exactly. FGs need to deviate from the SF2 template more. I want to see an established FG developer put some serious resources towards one this generation. If not an established dev, hopefully a publisher will fund someone less so.

I have some big ideas but its going to take me 5 or 8 years to get to them honestly. I have a lot of projects I want to do before I try that, and to be totally honest, I already made one of the most outside-the-box fighting games ever, and look at how a huge portion of the community treats me and it. Why would you want to make games for people who act that way?

 

[vocab]

My friend who I'm trying to get into fighting games bought a Madcatz TE SCV stick. He was worried that he wouldn't able to bring it on the plane because he was headed to canada for school. So the plane was canceled due to weather, and he was able to bring it with him via car ride no problem. He was super excited to finally sit down and learn a character in BBCP.

I get on mumble, and ask him how the stick was, and he's like i can't figure out how to turn it on. I'm like what? He's telling me that the turbo buttons keep lighting up every time he holds the buttons down and de light when they aren't being pressed (weird), and he can't navigate the XMB at all, and nothings working. So I tried to get him to disable the turbo shit, and see if it works on PC. PC detects unknown device, and he can't turn the turbo off or on.

DOA stick for your first fighting game.
Fucking sucks man.

Now he has to deal with both Amazon.Ca, and Amazon US. Plus he might have to spend a bit more on the stick because the one he has is out of stock.

 

[Clawww]

It took a decade for the greater FGC to accept Smash as a fighting game.

I don't think this statement is fair, or makes much sense. Brawl came out before the modern FGC blew up. It's understandable why the OG fighting game players from back in the day didn't give Smash much thought. I don't see that being an issue anymore, and I'm anticipating Smash 4 becoming an FGC mainstay (like, Smash will be on sp00ky).

Actually, EMP had some smash players back in the day, I'm pretty sure.

 

[notworksafe]

Why not contact MadCatz? They'll send a new PCB or fix his if he sends it in.

 

[oneida]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";96086377]The question and answer are always Beat Knuckle.[/QUOTE]

somedays I just wanna main Jacky, man.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I have some big ideas but its going to take me 5 or 8 years to get to them honestly. I have a lot of projects I want to do before I try that, and to be totally honest, I already made one of the most outside-the-box fighting games ever, and look at how a huge portion of the community treats me and it. Why would you want to make games for people who act that way?

Because you want to change the status quo despite the people who tend to clamor for it?

I mean honestly DK is such a deviation from the typical fighting game it was bound to happen. I wouldn't let that get in the way of possibly getting progress.

 

[K.Sabot]

Brawl left a bad impression on the greater fgc, and did a disservice to the legitimacy of the real Smash game

Spoiler

Smash 64

But of course, Brawl is known for that.

 

[Kimosabae]

Feel free to substitute skill ceiling or execution barrier into my sentence, if you feel that skill gap changed your meaning. I think it still works, though I'm baffled at why skill gap offends you. Having a skill gap is a *good* thing. We just disagree on the best way to make sure the game doesn't flatten out the skill levels.

And I don't hate complicated systems, btw. I appreciate the hell out of VO:OT, though I'd rather actually play EXVS, which is far less complicated.

It's not the phrase that offends me, it's the implication that I may be taking an elitist stance towards the LCD, as if I don't want to embrace as many people as possible or they are even conscious of the discussion.

It took a decade for the greater FGC to accept Smash as a fighting game.

For the most part it still isn't accepted. It's simply more taboo to criticize the game openly because the community raised money for cancer and brought hype to Evo. But there's definitely been progress.

I have some big ideas but its going to take me 5 or 8 years to get to them honestly. I have a lot of projects I want to do before I try that, and to be totally honest, I already made one of the most outside-the-box fighting games ever, and look at how a huge portion of the community treats me and it. Why would you want to make games for people who act that way?

Because you're not leveraging those ideas for the vocal, tactless, and narrow-minded minority that doesn't appreciate the vision. You're creating these things because you believe in them. If you believe the ideas are good, delaying them due to criticism isn't just cheating yourself: you're cheating everyone. Didn't the mainstream gaming media love Divekick? Gotta be more of a pachyderm, man. This is the FGC. You know I know what it's like to be vilified by a portion of it simply because you believe in things (this is SynikaL from the SRK boards if you don't recognize the name or the avvy. Back when you did the 'SRK player highlights' you I was a front-page candidate at one point. The comments on that one were too good).

 

[vocab]

Why not contact MadCatz? They'll send a new PCB or fix his if he sends it in.

I'm pretty sure that will take much longer versus going through Amazon. Amazon is generally very generous and sends replacements over night. The only problem is that he has to get a different stick completely, and that's where the issue is. I mean going through madcatz is an avenue, but I don't want him to wait forever to get something he was excited for.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I have some big ideas but its going to take me 5 or 8 years to get to them honestly. I have a lot of projects I want to do before I try that, and to be totally honest, I already made one of the most outside-the-box fighting games ever, and look at how a huge portion of the community treats me and it. Why would you want to make games for people who act that way?

Why would you want to make games for anyone but yourself?

 

[notworksafe]

Fair enough. If he wants to keep his stick, MCZ is the way to go. They have great CS and work quickly so if he sends it in, it won't be too long.

 

[AnkiRendan]

We need more games that are as well designed as Smash. It's too bad PSABR really screwed up.

 

[RockTurtle]

i want galacta to be in the next Mahvel vs Cupcom

 

[Hitokage]

For the most part it still isn't accepted. It's simply more taboo to criticize the game openly because the community raised money for cancer and brought hype to Evo. But there's definitely been progress.

More like Brawl had to die out, tensions over the previous Evo showing had to become forgotten, and those still playing Melee were able to demonstrate how far they had developed the game.

 

[vocab]

Fair enough. If he wants to keep his stick, MCZ is the way to go. They have great CS and work quickly so if he sends it in, it won't be too long.

Do you know if MCZ offers prepaid shipping labels? Shipping from canada is gonna be a bitch if he has to pay out of pocket for a replacement.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

I don't think this statement is fair, or makes much sense. Brawl came out before the modern FGC blew up. It's understandable why the OG fighting game players from back in the day didn't give Smash much thought. I don't see that being an issue anymore, and I'm anticipating Smash 4 becoming an FGC mainstay (like, Smash will be on sp00ky).

Actually, EMP had some smash players back in the day, I'm pretty sure.

Blanket non-contributing statements from me aside, when you start deviating from SF2 style gameplay you start stretching the limits of what's considered a fighting game, since that game is The fighting game genre.

Gundam vs Gundam is pretty out there but most consider it within the umbrella. Other contemporary "competitive" games are stuff like Nidhogg, Samurai Gunn, Bara Bari Ball, Magical Beat, and Catherine, which share very much or very little with the SF2 definition of fighting game.

 

[sleepykyo]

i want galacta to be in the next Mahvel vs Cupcom

Could have just posted female Sinister or female Ultron and used official art.

 

[notworksafe]

Do you know if MCZ offers prepaid shipping labels? Shipping from canada is gonna be a bitch if he has to pay out of pocket for a replacement.

I don't know unfortunately. Any time I've had a problem they just send me a replacement part and I install it myself. Toss Markman a PM or maybe he'll see this, he'll know of a way to help for sure.