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[Deleted member 231381]

I really don't see Pokemon Trainer being cut. Cutting him is removing 3 whole unique characters from the game.

There's also no good reason to remove Lucas, Ike or Wolf. The latter two are unique characters, which seem entirely pointless to cut in a game where Toon Link is returning.

Thing is with Toon Link is that the Zelda series doesn't really have that many returning characters which are iconic to the series to work with. I mean, it has a lot of good one-shot characters like Zant, Giraham, Vaati, Midna, Ezlo and so on, but not much to work with in the way of characters that are truly integral to the history of the series. I mean, outside of Link, Ganondorf and Zelda, who do you go with? Vaati appears in three games, which is pretty decent, but he's not been featured in a new game for quite a while - not since tMC. Tingle's a possibility, but his moveset would have to pretty inventive because he's not really a fighter. Obviously, that's not a huge problem in the grand scheme of things (see: Villager), but it's still a partial block. Impa is already really subsumed under Sheik. After you've run through those three, then, well... there aren't really any particular iconic Zelda characters left.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Cranky Kong will make his debut on February 21st. Believe.

 

[Exotoro]

Thing is with Toon Link is that the Zelda series doesn't really have that many returning characters which are iconic to the series to work with. I mean, it has a lot of good one-shot characters like Zant, Giraham, Vaati, Midna, Ezlo and so on, but not much to work with in the way of characters that are truly integral to the history of the series. I mean, outside of Link, Ganondorf and Zelda, who do you go with? Vaati appears in three games, which is pretty decent, but he's not been featured in a new game for quite a while - not since tMC. Tingle's a possibility, but his moveset would have to pretty inventive because he's not really a fighter. Obviously, that's not a huge problem in the grand scheme of things (see: Villager), but it's still a partial block. Impa is already really subsumed under Sheik. After you've run through those three, then, well... there aren't really any particular iconic Zelda characters left.

Did you quote the wrong thing?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Did you quote the wrong thing?

No, it was a response to the last part about Toon Link. My point was that the Zelda series doesn't really have that many characters to offer, so it's unsurprising you'd hit something like Toon Link/Link eventually in terms of similarity.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Thing is with Toon Link is that the Zelda series doesn't really have that many returning characters which are iconic to the series to work with. I mean, it has a lot of good one-shot characters like Zant, Giraham, Vaati, Midna, Ezlo and so on, but not much to work with in the way of characters that are truly integral to the history of the series. I mean, outside of Link, Ganondorf and Zelda, who do you go with? Vaati appears in three games, which is pretty decent, but he's not been featured in a new game for quite a while - not since tMC. Tingle's a possibility, but his moveset would have to pretty inventive because he's not really a fighter. Obviously, that's not a huge problem in the grand scheme of things (see: Villager), but it's still a partial block. Impa is already really subsumed under Sheik. After you've run through those three, then, well... there aren't really any particular iconic Zelda characters left.

I've always stood by Vaati as a good character to add for Zelda. They could do a lot of fun stuff with wind power, even shrinking size magic if they really wanted. To be the main villain in 3 Zelda games is actually a big deal, that's second only to Ganon himself.

Although the time to add Vaati has probably passed. Most people would look at him and assume it's some kind of midget Giraham or something...

Anyway, I think Sakurai once said somewhere that it just "feels right" to have 2 Links in the game. I don't remember why he said that, but it explained why we've have Young/Toon Link now for 3 games.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Sakurai snuck a picture of his cat into Brawl's default pokemon stage you could only ever possibly find if you hacked the game's camera or went through its texture files because it's beyond an angle the default camera can reach.

He absolutely knows people love getting obsessive with this shit.

You can actually spot that with the normal camera as well.

also that is like the fakest rumor yet

 

[MagiusNecros]

I hope DeDeDe has his Mask and his other Hammer as a alt costume.

Would be great.

 

[Green Mamba]

Vaati is technically only the main villain of two Zeldas--he's in Four Swords Adventures, but Ganon is the main villain of that game.

All told though, when The Minish Cap is the biggest and most prominent Zelda he's featured in, he never had a chance to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I've always stood by Vaati as a good character to add for Zelda. They could do a lot of fun stuff with wind power, even shrinking size magic if they really wanted. To be the main villain in 3 Zelda games is actually a big deal, that's second only to Ganon himself.

Although the time to add Vaati has probably passed. Most people would look at him and assume it's some kind of midget Giraham or something...

Anyway, I think Sakurai once said somewhere that it just "feels right" to have 2 Links in the game. I don't remember why he said that, but it explained why we've have Young/Toon Link now for 3 games.

Vaati's chance was Brawl, methinks, fresh off the back of Four Swords/Four Swords Adventures/the Minish Cap. I agree he'd have been a better choice than Toon Link back then. Now, he'd feel... a bit dated. It would like including Blaziken in Brawl, you know? Blaziken was clearly the front and centre man of Gen 3, but by Brawl his time had passed and Lucario had taken the stage. It's a shame, though - I really like Vaati, he was a great villain.

I think the best possible new Zelda character would be Impa, though. Separate Sheik from Zelda and give Zelda her own Down-B, redesign Sheik to be conceptually similar to the Skyward Sword design whilst fitting the Twilight Princess art-style used for Link and Zelda already in SSB4, and wham. Great new Zelda character, with a history dating back to the very first game.

 

[FlynnCL]

I've always stood by Vaati as a good character to add for Zelda. They could do a lot of fun stuff with wind power, even shrinking size magic if they really wanted. To be the main villain in 3 Zelda games is actually a big deal, that's second only to Ganon himself.

Yeah, Vaati was a character that I've wanted to be added to Smash Bros. There's a lot of interesting things they could do.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

You think Demise could work?

Technically he's in every Zelda game (a facet of the lore I hate btw). Although he'd just be Ganondorf part 2 visually.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You think Demise could work?

Technically he's in every Zelda game (a facet of the lore I hate btw). Although he'd just be Ganondorf part 2 visually.

If I can get Akuma with a Sword that would be great. His final smash can be belly flopping as a whale monster.

Of course Ganondorf can just get Demise's Sword and we can call it a day.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

You think Demise could work?

Technically he's in every Zelda game (a facet of the lore I hate btw). Although he'd just be Ganondorf part 2 visually.

Aren't Ganondorf and Demise technically the same dude?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Aren't Ganondorf and Demise technically the same dude?

Nope. Just reincarnation of hatred. Two different beings though. Touchy subject.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

You think Demise could work?

Technically he's in every Zelda game (a facet of the lore I hate btw). Although he'd just be Ganondorf part 2 visually.

This is probably controversial, but I've always been in favour of certain characters as alt-costumes. Just make Demise an alt-costume of Ganondorf, their build is identical and the function pretty similarly in terms of how you fight them in most games. However, regardless of whether this is done or not, give Ganondorf a proper moveset with a sword. >:|

 

[BGBW]

Tingle should basically consist of dodging moves (like a balloon based hop) but to counter this he is a slow walker and easy to send flying. His only direct attack is to get into a rumble with another character and roll around the stage in the fight smoke. (Basically how cartoons depict a fight) This smoke can absorb other characters if they get too close but it will always leave him knock-out for a brief period where he is vulnerable once the rumble is over.

His main gimmick is his rupee wallet which counts up as the match progresses and after collecting a certain amount he can summon a warrior (think AT) to fight for him. More rupees he has the stronger warrior he can hire but the one he summons is based on the directional input so make sure you only summon a strong warrior if you can pay for them otherwise they knock you out. While the warrior will usually just be an AI you can influence them by absorbing them with the rumble smoke. With a warrior Tingle will not be knocked-out after the smoke disappears. Like Wario he can use items to increase the counter (rather than eating them he "sells" them).

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Nope. Just reincarnation of hatred. Two different beings though. Touchy subject.

Ugh

Ganon had always been this evil, omnipotent being that could never truly be killed. There was this mystery about him, and almost a kind of respect for his tenacity and hatred.

And then they just go "jk, he's just a puppet for this one dude who's in one game lulz" and it flushed a lot of the respect and mystery about Ganon away. This long history of a thief wizard of the desert turned into an immortal monster by greed and jealously of Hyrule life turned into a slave to some higher being...

bleh, he also kind of washes away all the awesome character development Wind Waker did for Ganon. He no longer has a real reason to be evil, he's just a reincarnated spirit of this evil dude...

 

[MagiusNecros]

This is probably controversial, but I've always been in favour of certain characters as alt-costumes. Just make Demise an alt-costume of Ganondorf, their build is identical and the function pretty similarly in terms of how you fight them in most games. However, regardless of whether this is done or not, give Ganondorf a proper moveset with a sword. >:|

I'd actually go for Demon Pig Ganon with a Trident really.

Ugh

Ganon had always been this evil, omnipotent being that could never truly be killed. There was this mystery about him, and almost a kind of respect for his tenacity and hatred.

And then they just go "jk, he's just a puppet for this one dude who's in one game lulz" and it flushed a lot of the respect and mystery about Ganon away. This long history of a thief wizard of the desert turned into an immortal monster by greed and jealously of Hyrule life turned into a slave to some higher being...

bleh, he also kind of washes away all the awesome character development Wind Waker did for Ganon. He no longer has a real reason to be evil, he's just a reincarnated spirit of this evil dude...

Pretty sure Ganondorf had his own motivations. I'd like to see something happen where Ganondorf realizes he is being manipulated by such a deity and sets forth to remove that curse but doing so would cost him what he has long sought, the triforce.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Also, I really want Zero Suit Samus to be cut. She's the only character I actively want to be cut, rather than just thinking there are more suitable characters I'd give higher priority. Zero Suit Samus is completely unfaithful to the Metroid games in basically every aspect and really only existed in Brawl so Sakurai could have lingering booty shots in every other SSE cutscene.

 

[RealDeadOne]

You think Demise could work?

Technically he's in every Zelda game (a facet of the lore I hate btw). Although he'd just be Ganondorf part 2 visually.

No real reason he couldn't be a costume for Dorf, except maybe to give us that sword moveset we've always wanted.

I think the alternate Zelda reps go like this in importance:

1. Impa - in almost every game, argument could be made that she's represented by Shiek already, though I think they should just detach Shiek from Zelda already, make her Impa, and give her an alternate costume as Shiek, but I don't think that's likely considering her popularity.
2. Tingle - after Link, Zelda, Ganon and Impa has probably been in more Zelda games than any other character besides someone minor who keeps coming back like Malon. Could be an interesting character, but probably in Waluigi-tier of fan hate.
3. Toon Zelda - only reason she's on here is that she was considered for Brawl, so I think that gives her a pretty damn good chance, despite her role already being filled by regular Zelda
4. Vaati - next in line after Tingle, hasn't really been important in a long time though
5. Girahim - cool villain, but only in one game and likely won't ever be in another
6. Midna - like Girahim probably ain't coming back, despite having good potential, if she wasn't added in Brawl, she's probably not being added ever.
7. ERROR - fan favorite, fantastic potential moveset, represents the most popular game in the series, and almost definitely will be replacing Ganondorf

Ugh

Ganon had always been this evil, omnipotent being that could never truly be killed. There was this mystery about him, and almost a kind of respect for his tenacity and hatred.

And then they just go "jk, he's just a puppet for this one dude who's in one game lulz" and it flushed a lot of the respect and mystery about Ganon away. This long history of a thief wizard of the desert turned into an immortal monster by greed and jealously of Hyrule life turned into a slave to some higher being...

bleh, he also kind of washes away all the awesome character development Wind Waker did for Ganon. He no longer has a real reason to be evil, he's just a reincarnated spirit of this evil dude...

I like to look at it as Demise being the origin of all the dark, evil magic in the world, including Moblins and the various other monsters Link encounters that disappear in puffs of purple and black smoke. Vaati took control of that evil magic/Moblin armies in Minish Cap after years of studying it, and Ganondorf took control of it in OoT through sheer force of will and greed and has been the main boss of it ever since. Though I think that may directly contradict what Historia says.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

I would say that rumor actually sounds like it could possibly have elements of truth to it, but the Wolf Link/Midna thing pushes it into the realm of absurdity for me. Same with the Duck Hunt Dog.

I definitely can see Ike, Wolf, Lucas, and Snake getting cut, though, and I'm fairly certain the Pac-Man/Mii/Little Mac rumor will end up being true.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Also, I really want Zero Suit Samus to be cut. She's the only character I actively want to be cut, rather than just thinking there are more suitable characters I'd give higher priority. Zero Suit Samus is completely unfaithful to the Metroid games in basically every aspect and really only existed in Brawl so Sakurai could have lingering booty shots in every other SSE cutscene.

Sadly ZSS(now with heels most likely) counts as Metroid's second rep no matter how utterly ridiculous it is.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Also, I really want Zero Suit Samus to be cut. She's the only character I actively want to be cut, rather than just thinking there are more suitable characters I'd give higher priority. Zero Suit Samus is completely unfaithful to the Metroid games in basically every aspect and really only existed in Brawl so Sakurai could have lingering booty shots in every other SSE cutscene.

They need to make her, her own character on the menu (like they have for Sheik). Her method of being playable in Brawl was too secret, I imagine many didn't even realize she was a full, proper, character. I know I often forgot she existed because I couldn't remember the button combo to play as her.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

They need to make her, her own character on the menu (like they have for Sheik). Her method of being playable in Brawl was too secret, I imagine many didn't even realize she was a full, proper, character. I know I often forgot she existed because I couldn't remember the button combo to play as her.

No, they need to cut her. The only game Zero Suit Samus actually appears in while playable is Metroid: Zero Mission, and you don't want to be Zero Suit Samus. You're immensely aware of your relative physical frailty compared to the Space Pirates, and you have a total inability to harm them - the best you can do is stun them while you desperately try to hide. The entire point of the encounter is to make you realise that you've been taking your progression for granted, and make you just that bit more grateful when you recover the Power Suit; that gift that the Chozo gave you. In Brawl, you actively want to be Zero Suit Samus, because of how bad Power Suit Samus is - her moveset is screaming for a comprehensive redesign even more than Bowser's was. That's just not right.

 

[FlynnCL]

Also, I really want Zero Suit Samus to be cut. She's the only character I actively want to be cut, rather than just thinking there are more suitable characters I'd give higher priority. Zero Suit Samus is completely unfaithful to the Metroid games in basically every aspect and really only existed in Brawl so Sakurai could have lingering booty shots in every other SSE cutscene.

But she's a really unique fighter. That's what counts the most for me.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But she's a really unique fighter. That's what counts the most for me.

And? Almost any character from any series could be made unique. What makes the Smash series so special is that it's a celebration of Nintendo history. Zero Suit Samus feels like a bad parody.

 

[The Bankslammer]

So, extremely inconsequential prediction here, but I've been doing a lot of research on the Famicom Disk System lately and came across this game called Shin Onigashima, AKA "The Game the Donbe & Hikari Trophy from Melee Was From".

This game apparently has a lot of love from Japanese developers, appearing in Kirby's Dreamland 3, Daigasso Band Brothers, and Captain Rainbow, but more notably in Melee with the trophy and in Brawl with an awesome remix of some of the music on the Ice Climbers stage.

So, in short, I'm thinking, especially if we're getting a higher ratio of Assist Trophy : Characters than the kind of pitiful one in Brawl, a Donbe & Hikari AT would be a really good way to represent the Disk System, which was a very major part of Nintendo's history in Japan despite never making it to America (however, its biggest exclusives did get NES downports, the titles of which might surprise you: Metroid, Kid Icarus, and yes, even The Legend of Zelda were exclusive to the Disk System in Japan).

Spoiler

Hell, I wouldn't necessarily count the pair out as our WTF throwback character

.

Donbe and Hikari would be interesting as an Assist Trophy from the standpoint of the game they represent. My only issue is that I'm not quite sure about what they'd do.

I have a copy of Shin Onigashima but haven't played it yet, but to my knowledge I believe it's a retelling of Momotarou in adventure game form, right? I think that the sort of game they appear in limits what they're able to do. All I can really think of them doing as an Assist Trophy is... uh... maybe summoning a bunch of peaches? Or siccing a monkey, dog and bird on opponents? Or calling demons? I'm just not entirely sure.

I feel like it's more likely that their appearance will be limited to art/music. An updated trophy of them would be pretty cool, though. I had no idea Shin Onigashima or Famicom Tantei Club were a thing until I got those trophies in Melee.

 

[Berordn]

Also, I really want Zero Suit Samus to be cut. She's the only character I actively want to be cut, rather than just thinking there are more suitable characters I'd give higher priority. Zero Suit Samus is completely unfaithful to the Metroid games in basically every aspect and really only existed in Brawl so Sakurai could have lingering booty shots in every other SSE cutscene.

I don't actually hate her unfaithfulness, since she kept the one thing she had in the game and was a lot of fun to play.

I'm just worried about where they might go with design.

 

[BGBW]

They need to make her, her own character on the menu (like they have for Sheik). Her method of being playable in Brawl was too secret, I imagine many didn't even realize she was a full, proper, character. I know I often forgot she existed because I couldn't remember the button combo to play as her.

It was weird Sakurai revealed you could wiggle the taunts and a ridiculous speed to switch between the two forms but not the fact you could just hold down two buttons before the match to start as her.

 

[MagiusNecros]

No, they need to cut her. The only game Zero Suit Samus actually appears in while playable is Metroid: Zero Mission

There's Other M when you have to escape from the Bottle Ship. So 2 games.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

There's Other M when you have to escape from the Bottle Ship. So 2 games.

Other M? What's that?

Spoiler

shutupshutupshutupSHUTUP

 

[MagiusNecros]

Other M? What's that?

Spoiler

shutupshutupshutupSHUTUP

But the baby. I did not authorize you to forget about the baby.

 

[zroid]

It's ironic that since I haven't played Other M, I feel pretty nonchalant towards its representations in Smash Bros., whereas those to have actually suffered the game feel affronted. With most cases the effect would probably be reversed.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's ironic that since I haven't played Other M, I feel pretty nonchalant towards its representations in Smash Bros., whereas those to have actually suffered the game feel affronted. With most cases the effect would probably be reversed.

It's not as bad if you mute the narrative.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It's not as bad if you mute the narrative.

Being beaten to death isn't so bad if you take painkillers, either.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yea, Other M's gameplayer really isn't bad at all. I enjoyed it, other than the hilariously awful story

Fun Fact: Other M is the only Metroid game I have 100% completed.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Being beaten to death isn't so bad if you take painkillers, either.

It isn't that bad. Although I will attest most Metroid fans never bothered with the manga. It's a great game. Just not the best Metroid.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Free gifts for all.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It isn't that bad. Although I will attest most Metroid fans never bothered with the manga.

So, what Other M got right was Samus' movement - she's fast, agile, and has a lot of mobility options. What it got wrong was the music, the sense of exploration, the level design, the shooting, the detective parts, the art style, the narrative, the characters, Ridley, and basically everything else. Even if you excuse the awful narrative, that doesn't excuse the fact that the rest of the game is pretty poorly designed as well.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Anthony was a cool character. Explaining where ADAM, Nightmare and Ridley X came from was cool. The 2D segments were nice. And then... uhhh? Well, those parts were decent if not good!

 

[Berordn]

Free gifts for all.

If I wasn't already sporting HFT I'd jump on that in a heartbeat

Truly Neorice is a benevolent god.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So, what Other M got right was Samus' movement - she's fast, agile, and has a lot of mobility options. What it got wrong was the music, the sense of exploration, the level design, the shooting, the detective parts, the art style, the narrative, the characters, Ridley, and basically everything else. Even if you excuse the awful narrative, that doesn't excuse the fact that the rest of the game is pretty poorly designed as well.

That's what you get for outsourcing to Ninja Theory.

 

[Qurupeke]

Midna is irrelevant now. No need for her to be in the game...

 

[Poltergust]

I honestly don't remember the egg toss ever being a particuarly useful move in Brawl, so you're probably going to have to explain what makes it stand out there and not as much in the first game or Melee. Though to be honest I think Yoshi normally winds up near the bottom for me personally in Smash, so I'm probably speaking from a bit of a biased perspective here.

Here are a few points:

-Can be used to protect Yoshi during recovery.
-ECE (Edge-Canceled Eggs) is an extremely important technique for recovering from the edge.
-Due to it's controllable trajectory, you can aim it to virtually any part of the stage, giving it great versatility.
-Can set-up a kill move on the air or ground.
-It has two hitboxes (the egg itself and the explosion). Because of this, you can make eggs bounce off shields to keep people in shield-stun longer or even shield-poke. Speaking of which, it's very easy to shield-poke with proper Egg Toss usage. It can even lead to inescapable grab set-ups.
-The explosion hitbox is huge.
-Can be used to escape grabs.

That's basically the tip of the iceberg. You really need to see some competitive matches with a good Yoshi

Spoiler

like me

to see it in practice. It's definitely a great move.

EDIT: I hope you also don't think Egg Lay is useless either, because in Brawl that's his best move by far.

 

[kunonabi]

So, what Other M got right was Samus' movement - she's fast, agile, and has a lot of mobility options. What it got wrong was the music, the sense of exploration, the level design, the shooting, the detective parts, the art style, the narrative, the characters, Ridley, and basically everything else. Even if you excuse the awful narrative, that doesn't excuse the fact that the rest of the game is pretty poorly designed as well.

the rest of the game is structured just like fusion was(and handled better than fusion actually) with a bigger focus on the horror elements that sakamoto always wanted to include. there was nothing wrong with the shooting, detective parts or the art style and music, which is completely subjective anyway. the game was always meant to be an extension of the fluid combat of the original metroid with fusion's more linear structure that the series has been headed towards ever since metroid 2 really. The only real issue with the narrative is how much is the lack of context since nobody had the opportunity to read the manga and how the games sort of demands that you figure out certain things out on your and pay attention to small clues while being fairly heavy-handed about other things. This is why so many people had trouble with the detective parts as they expect to pay attention to details in the environment as well the moments that precede them. As for the shooting, it takes practice. A strange concept in video games these days I know. Once you get the hang of it is immensely satisfying to weave in out of it, combining missile shots, dodges, finishers, and clearing a room quickly. it takes a little dexterity and altering your approach since your aiming view is based on samus's pov instead of the camera but it is honestly much more beneficial and accurate. I'd actually prefer if more games included it as option personally. Re6 tried it but screwed it up much like everything else in that game.

I'm not getting into Samus's character since no one has able to actual provide any evidence to her character assassination outside of head canon, misplaced feminist white knighting, and borderline racist stereotyping.

 

[R0ckman]

That's what you get for outsourcing to Ninja Theory.

Team Ninja. I'm starting to think that most people who complained about other m haven't even played all of the metroid games.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Team Ninja. I'm starting to think that most people who complained about other m haven't even played all of the metroid games.

I always mix those 2 up.

I think the most that complain came in at the Metroid Prime series. Or like Super Metroid and nothing else. I've had the benediction of playing Metroid since the NES. Where I would literally have to draw out my own map.

 

[daripad]

Guys I want Monita for Smash. Dark Monita could be her final smash

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Free gifts for all.

Oh man. I'm taking the one on the right. Thanks neorice.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I'm not getting into Samus's character since no one has able to actual provide any evidence to her character assassination outside of head canon, misplaced feminist white knighting, and borderline racist stereotyping.

Well... I mean, like, when she saw Ridley alive and well in Prime she didn't break down into tears. She went to investigate further and acted serious, calm and composed. She barely even gives him notice besides tracking him whenever he appears. Tracking him like a hunter. Which she is. A hunter. Not an emotional wreck.

The Ridley scene would have made sense if this was the second time she had faced Ridley since the original Metroid. But it wasn't. She fought him again in Super, then in Prime, then in Prime 3, the latter was a corrupted cyborg abomination of Ridley and was a hell of a lot more intimidating than Other M's version. And then after Other M she fights zombie Ridley X with no issue at all, which according to Other M is the corpse of Ridley that made her break down so it makes no sense at all she'd casually fall into a pit, beat him with no remorse and not even mention in her logs that this event happened.

I consider the Ridley fiasco and the whole Varia suit nonsense to be the two lowest points in the entire series. They were just so completely out of character it was almost comedic.