Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments

kunonabi said:
the rest of the game is structured just like fusion was(and handled better than fusion actually) with a bigger focus on the horror elements that sakamoto always wanted to include. there was nothing wrong with the shooting, detective parts or the art style and music, which is completely subjective anyway. the game was always meant to be an extension of the fluid combat of the original metroid with fusion's more linear structure that the series has been headed towards ever since metroid 2 really. The only real issue with the narrative is how much is the lack of context since nobody had the opportunity to read the manga and how the games sort of demands that you figure out certain things out on your and pay attention to small clues while being fairly heavy-handed about other things. This is why so many people had trouble with the detective parts as they expect to pay attention to details in the environment as well the moments that precede them. As for the shooting, it takes practice. A strange concept in video games these days I know. Once you get the hang of it is immensely satisfying to weave in out of it, combining missile shots, dodges, finishers, and clearing a room quickly. it takes a little dexterity and altering your approach since your aiming view is based on samus's pov instead of the camera but it is honestly much more beneficial and accurate. I'd actually prefer if more games included it as option personally. Re6 tried it but screwed it up much like everything else in that game.

I'm not getting into Samus's character since no one has able to actual provide any evidence to her character assassination outside of head canon, misplaced feminist white knighting, and borderline racist stereotyping.
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Agree on all accounts.

I'm in the camp that really enjoyed Other M. It had its problems, but I loved it anyway.
 
kunonabi said:
the rest of the game is structured just like fusion was(and handled better than fusion actually)
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How is it handled better than Fusion? At least in Fusion, you can eventually gain the capacity to sequence break even if the early game's progression is locked down. Other M is locked down the entire way through, and for even more inane plot reasons than Fusion is.

with a bigger focus on the horror elements that sakamoto always wanted to include.
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Except for the fact the horror elements just don't work, because they aren't supported by the sound track, the lighting, or really anything that should be supporting them. In most cases, you're supposed to be scared because a character died, but normally you didn't care about the character in the first place and so the shock and fright never sets in. There's absolutely nothing in Other M that begins to compare with SA-X, some of the Metroid fights from Return of Samus, or any of the heat-visor setpieces from the Prime series.

there was nothing wrong with the shooting, detective parts or the art style and music, which is completely subjective anyway. the game was always meant to be an extension of the fluid combat of the original metroid with fusion's more linear structure that the series has been headed towards ever since metroid 2 really.
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Are we really defending the music, here? This is the series that produced Red Brinstar, Norfair Ruins, Nightmare's Theme, Surface of SR338; and all of those are without even touching the Prime sub-series. I can't recall a single memorable track from the entirety of Other M that wasn't a remix of earlier tracks from the series. The detective parts served absolutely no purpose except to kill all of the apparently 'fluid' pace you were talking about, and were just tedious instances of Where's Waldo-ing the screen for 2 minutes. When I'm talking about the shooting, I'm not talking the ordinary gameplay but specifically those parts reserved for missiles, which were awful.

The only real issue with the narrative is how much is the lack of context since nobody had the opportunity to read the manga and how the games sort of demands that you figure out certain things out on your and pay attention to small clues while being fairly heavy-handed about other things.
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You say this like it's not an important thing and just something minor that can be overlooked. If the game, which was meant for international release and wide user purchase, contextually relies upon the release of a manga that was only ever released in Japan and wasn't even particularly widespread there, that's a massive problem. Incidentally, I had actually read the manga, and Other M's story is still bad. You can't try and use that to hide how poor the narrative is.

This is why so many people had trouble with the detective parts as they expect to pay attention to details in the environment as well the moments that precede them.
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...all Metroid games expect you to pay attention to details in the environment and the events that precede them. Every single one. That's largely speaking how the Metroid games function: you notice an environmental detail that seems out of place, usually can't do anything about it, then come back when you finally figure out how you're supposed to approach it. People didn't get stuck on the detective sections because they weren't paying attention to the environment, or they'd have been equally stuck on every Metroid game ever. They got stuck because the detective sections were tedious, slow, and janky.

As for the shooting, it takes practice. A strange concept in video games these days I know. Once you get the hang of it is immensely satisfying to weave in out of it, combining missile shots, dodges, finishers, and clearing a room quickly. it takes a little dexterity and altering your approach since your aiming view is based on samus's pov instead of the camera but it is honestly much more beneficial and accurate. I'd actually prefer if more games included it as option personally. Re6 tried it but screwed it up much like everything else in that game.
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Shooting which is restricted to the various beams is actually decent, I'll grant you that - I was talking about the missile gameplay earlier. As I said in a post before, I like Samus' mobility and options in Other M, it's basically the only thing the game got right to me. The beam shooting works. I preferred how Prime handled it, just because I think shooting games tend to translate best in 3D to either FPS or over-the-shoulder TPS, but Other M does a good job of managing it. Doesn't make up for the rest of the game.

I'm not getting into Samus's character since no one has able to actual provide any evidence to her character assassination outside of head canon, misplaced feminist white knighting, and borderline racist stereotyping.
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... racist stereotyping? Say what?
 
Neoriceisgood said:
dedede2_avatar_by_neoriceisgood-d721fj3.png
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dedede4_avatar_by_neoriceisgood-d721fjc.png


Free gifts for all.
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You beautiful creature
 
balladofwindfishes said:
Well... I mean, like, when she saw Ridley alive and well in Prime she didn't break down into tears. She went to investigate further and acted serious, calm and composed. She barely even gives him notice besides tracking him whenever he appears. Tracking him like a hunter. Which she is. A hunter. Not an emotional wreck.

The Ridley scene would have made sense if this was the second time she had faced Ridley since the original Metroid. But it wasn't. She fought him again in Super, then in Prime, then in Prime 3, the latter was a corrupted cyborg abomination of Ridley and was a hell of a lot more intimidating than Other M's version. And then after Other M she fights zombie Ridley X with no issue at all, which according to Other M is the corpse of Ridley that made her break down so it makes no sense at all she'd casually fall into a pit, beat him with no remorse and not even mention in her logs that this event happened.

I consider the Ridley fiasco and the whole Varia suit nonsense to be the two lowest points in the entire series. They were just so completely out of character it was almost comedic.
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It's about CONTEXT dude. Context. In Other M we encounter a Samus who has been moved to reflect upon all the compounded instances of agency, parenthood, emotional connection (which she largely rejects but was violently thrust upon her with the infant Metroid), and consequence. It was certainly executed very poorly being both way too Japanese, translated poorly, and overall just heavy-handed to a fault. That said the themes of the story were still sound. This is not a Samus we will often see, and might never see again, but I see it as a product of context.

I dont want this to devolve in to the same old Other M shit-throwing fest, but I STRONGLY agree with with Kunonabi. I found the gameplay super fun, and the game was not trying to be the conventional exploration-heavy sort of Metroid game (more of an action game), and the story was poorly executed but not fundamentally flawed.
 
IntelliHeath said:
Let me know if I missed anything. It's up to NeoRice but I think we should add a new rule. In order to get sprites, members should be more active in smashgaf threads. It's not fair that people who are not active in thread are getting the sprites because they just called it first. They should be more active in this thread in order to get other people's hard work.
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Pfft - I'll post more when there's more information about. Most of my mains have been revealed since Day 1, then Toon Link (a bit of a side thing), and now I'm waiting for Lucario. Last few reveals lack weight, IMO. I quite miss the Dojo...
 
Vermillion said:
Pfft - I'll post more when there's more information about. Most of my mains have been revealed since Day 1, then Toon Link (a bit of a side thing), and now I'm waiting for Lucario. Last few reveals lack weight, IMO. I quite miss the Dojo...
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You got that good taste.
 
I actually originally wrote a two page essay about Other M's lack of quality here but decided I'd best not oust myself as a raving lunatic to this community just yet

So how bout those smash brothers guys
 
Crab said:
Also, I really want Zero Suit Samus to be cut. She's the only character I actively want to be cut, rather than just thinking there are more suitable characters I'd give higher priority. Zero Suit Samus is completely unfaithful to the Metroid games in basically every aspect and really only existed in Brawl so Sakurai could have lingering booty shots in every other SSE cutscene.
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Crab said:
Other M? What's that?

shutupshutupshutupSHUTUP
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I enjoyed watching my brother do a playthrough of the Other M and didn't know about the critiques from fans that made it a bad game in their eyes until seeing a youtube review.

ZSS beat MK at the biggest smash tournament of 2013.
She's too hype to be cut.
 
prime doesn't play into sakamoto's universe. That leaves Metroid and Super. The encounter with Ridley in Metroid was retconned so that Ridley survived. Thus the encounter in Other M was a complete and total shock since she had believed him him to finally be dead and buried. Not to mention the rest of her emotional upheaval with the baby, Adam, and her near death at the hands of Mother Brain. It was the wrong thing to do regardess since again their backstory is never presented but it isn't out of character and it's obvious that Sakamoto wanted to people to see that reaction in an actual title instead of just the manga.

The detective bits only kill the pacing if you aren't paying attention. I never got stuck on any of them and was shocked to hear that so many people had trouble them.
 
kunonabi said:
The detective bits only kill the pacing if you aren't paying attention. I never got stuck on any of them and was shocked to hear that so many people had trouble them.
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I don't want to get involved in this debate but I will say this - the one that broke me entirely on the game was where you saw adolescent Ridley and you had to investigate his green... stuff. "How obvious", I think to myself, "there's a large trail of green stuff on the ground that is surely what I'm looking for".

But it did nothing. I was stuck on that screen for nearly ten minutes until I gave up on searching myself and found it that it was a very specific point of the green slime that I had to click. Literally a pixel hunt.
 
Other M is kinda like Ridley in a way. Keeps coming back but you want to kill it and hope it stays dead. Amazing analogy really. Except people like Ridley for the most part.
 
Loco4Coco said:
But yet we will probably still get Jigglypuff.
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Jigglypuff was relevant when the first SSB was being made. Veteran characters are grandfathered into sequels (fans don't like seeing established characters cut), but newcomers need an extra push. Midna was a secondary NPC in a single game eight years ago, and so obviously she isn't going to be included.
 
People always forget about ROB and G&W =P

IntelliHeath said:
I found a fake rumor for someone to add it to tumblr,
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Why they always feel that they need to tell who they work for ?
If you signed a NDA the LAST thing you would do is telling how people can find you =P

Also, the diferent control methods kinda kills the Duck Hunt Dog "shoot from 4th wall" idea.

But didn't go overblown with third party characters, even with some strange choices on first party (the DK3 duo sounds like a more complex version of ice climbers and it makes me instanly think of Sakurai complaining of Ice Climbers on 3ds...)

I give it a 7/10
 
Ryce said:
Jigglypuff was relevant when the first SSB was being made. Veteran characters are grandfathered into sequels (fans don't like seeing established characters cut), but newcomers need an extra push. Midna was a secondary NPC in a single game eight years ago, and so obviously she isn't going to be included.
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I understand and agree with all of that, I'm just saying that Jigglypuff hasn't been relevant in the anime since the first season and she/he was never great in the Pokemon video games even with being part Fairy now.
 
Jiggz is my secondary and I would be upset, but could... understand if she was dropped to free up development time for more relevant characters. I agree she's a bit of a blast from the past, although I'd have to find a new second. :'(
 
kunonabi said:
prime doesn't play into sakamoto's universe.
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This is an assumption actually, and a bad one at that since it doesn't change the fact that the Prime games were made and are held as officially canon by Nintendo AND Sakamoto himself. Knowing why and how Sakamoto wrote that awful story element doesn't excuse the fact that it was a bad idea.

Also, I don't think the "she thought he was really dead this time for real" argument holds water either, since there was no sign of that fear in Fusion or Super. You can argue that those two didn't have the storytelling tech yet to show that (though they totally did and chose not to), but Zero Mission came out AFTER the manga, had references to the manga in it, and even had a cutscene of Samus reacting to Ridley before their boss battle and they still chose not to show Samus literally transforming into a baby and becoming completely useless. This isn't even to mention that the manga where she is shown to lock up in response to Ridley happens extremely early in her career and she even seems to overcome her fear of him within the manga story itself. There's no reason for Samus to react the way she did in Other M except to add bad fanfic-level drama into a bad fanfic-level story.
 
I wouldn't say the appearance of Ridley on the Pyrosphere stage means he's out, if Toon Link can appear as the conductor and playable Ridley still can.
 
JazzmanZ said:
I wouldn't say the appearance of Ridley on the Pyrosphere stage means he's out, if Toon Link can appear as the conductor and playable Ridley still can.
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But it is Conductor Toon Link.

If Dragon Ridley appears in the stage this means that playable Ridley will be .....
 
You just reminded me how ugly they made Ridley. This thread is now making me sad. :(
 
RealDeadOne said:
I actually originally wrote a two page essay about Other M's lack of quality here but decided I'd best not oust myself as a raving lunatic to this community just yet

So how bout those smash brothers guys
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You're my favorite. I just want you to know that.

So, um, Other M's... quality aside, I'm definitely in the camp that Ridley not showing up on the Pyrosphere yet is strongly beneficial to his chances of being playable. If he was a stage hazard there would be no reason to hide him, and it would just end in dreadful hype backlash. Sakurai's smart enough to know this - he likes his teases, but he's not going to play when it comes to a newcomer character like Ridley. Case in point - when Skull Kid's screenshot showed up, Sakurai was very blunt that he wasn't playable, because he knew that otherwise he would get people riled up for nothing.

I only hope that Ridley does use a design that's not from Other M. His design in Brawl was pretty great, and his Zero Mission design was also one of my favorites. Outside of my personal vendetta against Other M, Ridley's design there is pretty awful. It kinda goes against his entire character, making him bulky and thick where Ridley has always been thin, emphasizing that he was an adaptable alien.
 
I find it funny how Roy is called a fan favorite in Smash, when he's actually pretty disliked in the FE community for being such a horrible lord.

At least Ike is liked by both communities.
 
I've been playing brawl again lately for the first time in years, and I gt a manaphy last night for the first time ever, after hundreds of hours. Had no idea that it swapped your character. Died pretty quickly playing as yoshi :(

Save 'N Quit said:
I find it funny how Roy is called a fan favorite in Smash, when he's actually pretty disliked in the FE community for being such a horrible lord.

At least Ike is liked by both communities.
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Yeah, and he stars in two games. He's a completely unique character as well, IMO, I'd be sad to see him go. I think Marth with a Lucina alt and Ike would be plenty of representation for the series.
 
Save 'N Quit said:
I find it funny how Roy is called a fan favorite in Smash, when he's actually pretty disliked in the FE community for being such a horrible lord.

At least Ike is liked by both communities.
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Shitty Lord. Great Smash Character. Character has a bipolar effect between the 2 game series. Talking bout Roy.
 
C.Olimar788 said:
I only hope that Ridley does use a design that's not from Other M. His design in Brawl was pretty great, and his Zero Mission design was also one of my favorites. Outside of my personal vendetta against Other M, Ridley's design there is pretty awful. It kinda goes against his entire character, making him bulky and thick where Ridley has always been thin, emphasizing that he was an adaptable alien.
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Ignoring literally every other thing about Other M, even though I actually somewhat like the art design, Ridley's design is just absolutely horrifying and I have no idea how that made it in.

Ridley has such a cool design that Other M got every single thing wrong about. It looks nothing like how Ridley looks in any other game, even the original NES instruction booklet art looks more like Ridley
Metroid%2BRipley%2Bconception%2Bart.jpg


Save 'N Quit said:
I find it funny how Roy is called a fan favorite in Smash, when he's actually pretty disliked in the FE community for being such a horrible lord.

At least Ike is liked by both communities.
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I actually just played the English translation of Fuin no Tsurugi a few months ago on a big Fire Emblem kick, and the game was by far my least favorite non-NES title, and Roy was an awful character and unit. I find it interesting how his large Smash fanbase have likely never played the game he was from, or else they probably wouldn't be fans. I would be ok if they replaced him with Eliwood.
 
Ah, the inevitable Other M discussion. Took a while for the cycle to come back around here.

On the Ridley discussion, I'd prefer no Ridley than whatever Other M Ridley is. Poor thing.
 
Now that I think about it, Other M Ridley would probably be much easier to "scale down" than any other Ridley incarnation, since he's now so much more humanoid in shape and his head is proportional to his (now totally RIPPEDley) body

ridley_struttin.gif
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RealDeadOne said:
Now that I think about it, Other M Ridley would probably be much easier to "scale down" than any other Ridley incarnation, since he's now so much more humanoid in shape and his head is proportional to his (now totally RIPPEDley) body
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This is what worries me the most. With Samus using her Other M design and with Other M Ridley being the easy option when it comes to decided what design to use in Smash, I totally expect it to be the one Sakurai jumps to. Which is awful and makes me want to cry slightly.

Timeaisis said:
Ah, the inevitable Other M discussion. Took a while for the cycle to come back around here.

On the Ridley discussion, I'd prefer no Ridley than whatever Other M Ridley is. Poor thing.
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This entirely. Primarily because if Ridley isn't playable in Smash 4 at all, that means that he's a possibility for Project M's additional characters, and I feel like the PM team would do Ridley more justice than Sakurai's. Which is a little depressing now that I think about it. Why is it that a fanmade team can do characters like Sonic or Wario more justice than an official team of professionals?
 
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