Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments

C.Olimar788 said:
...so was this picture just an excuse for Sakurai to say "I really am taking gameplay elements into consideration this time! No, honest!" Because that's kind of what it seems like to me.

Congrats, Sakurai, you know that the usefulness of a character's move varies depending on how accurate it is, how many recovery frames it has, and even how that character plays outside of that move, impacting how the move can be woven into their game in the first place. We're all very, very proud of you. Now give us back Melee's air dodge.
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Jesus.
 
C.Olimar788 said:
It's a fighting game. Not taking balance into consideration when you're making a fighting game is like not taking paragraph structure into consideration while writing a novel.

Sorry, I'm probably just bitter from last week and the seeming death of edgehogging and ledge game.
Click to expand...

When I say balancing I am referring to going above and beyond, which seems to be what he is doing, which we should be grateful for. He can do whatever he wants and owes us nothing, is my point.

As far as edgehogging, the way I interpreted it; edgegames will be more technical and not an auto win for edgehoggers. The extra invincibility frames from a far off recovering opponent mixed with ledge steals means a guarder will have to take more risk, which I like. It forces more variables into play for the guarding player.
 
I think everyone else has already thought this, so let me state the obvious so we can start discussing it (and take bets!):

Sakurai is on a Kid Icarus streak of images, there's not a Nintendo Direct in sight, and in 24 hours we will be getting a Friday pic of the day, which is sometimes a megaton to tide us over for the weekend.

SO, here's the thing to discuss and bet on: will Sakurai make the Friday pic of the day a Palutena character reveal?

OR

Is Sakurai going to troll us even harder than he did on Wednesday by being unpredictable and breaking the pattern And continue being sly, or revealing that he made the leaked images himself as fake leaks and that she's actually an assist trophy, or something to that effect?


#TeamRe(ve)al or #TeamFake(Out)
 
Newcomers are never going to be revealed in a pic of the day, so option 1 is out.

I for one don't think he would make such big deal in response to the palutena leak to turn around and deconfirm her like that, so for me; option 2 is off the table as well.

Now for what the last pic for the week will be to tide us over? No idea..
 
I wonder these new mechanics mean for magical projectiles. Physical attributes shouldn't even factor into the equation for that, so probably no change, unless the recovery frames play into it.
 
How strange that Sakurai is making a lot of technical posts about the game. Almost like he wants the game to be competitive or something.
 
I know a lot of people were mocking the investors meeting and many of the ideas Iwata proposed but one that stuck out to me as an amazing idea is how NNID'a would track how many software titles were purchased and the more titles you purchased, the cheaper future titles would be. Also recommending friends who then purchased titles would further get you discounts basically club nintendo but not just getting super old Nes or gameboy titles but brand new releases
 
voltronbadA said:
I know a lot of people were mocking the investors meeting and many of the ideas Iwata proposed but one that stuck out to me as an amazing idea is how NNID'a would track how many software titles were purchased and the more titles you purchased, the cheaper future titles would be. Also recommending friends who then purchased titles would further get you discounts basically club nintendo but not just getting super old Nes or gameboy titles but brand new releases
Click to expand...

lol.

Not gonna happen.
 
C.Olimar788 said:
It's a fighting game. Not taking balance into consideration when you're making a fighting game is like not taking paragraph structure into consideration while writing a novel.

Sorry, I'm probably just bitter from last week and the seeming death of edgehogging and ledge game.
Click to expand...
Not according to Sakurai :P
 
botty said:
How strange that Sakurai is making a lot of technical posts about the game. Almost like he wants the game to be competitive or something.
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That's the thing. He makes posts like these that are clearly aimed at the competitive fanbase because they use terms and descriptions that wouldn't make a lot of sense for a casual player (recall the edge pic from last week and how a bunch of people thought him talking about 100%+ actions while grabbing the ledge meant grabbing another player). But they are all so incredibly shallow and/or seem to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of why the game works competitively in the first place. It's so frustrating.

Zeer0id said:
Hopefully we'll get a better view of the new KI stage
Click to expand...
I am also really hoping for this. Though I'm not sure I should get my hopes up, considering how long it took him to finally show us the Galaxy stage... and how we still have several 3DS stages that have only been vaguely teased with a single image. I wanna see that Find Mii stage, dangit!

I definitely don't think there's any chance of a daily image revealing a newcomer at this stage. It's just too beneficial to wait and use them as hype fuel for a Nintendo Direct or a similar type of event. So I... really hope we get a Nintendo Direct announced soon, haha. I wanna see Palutena's inevitable official announcement!

DisconnectD said:
When I say balancing I am referring to going above and beyond, which seems to be what he is doing, which we should be grateful for. He can do whatever he wants and owes us nothing, is my point.

As far as edgehogging, the way I interpreted it; edgegames will be more technical and not an auto win for edgehoggers. The extra invincibility frames from a far off recovering opponent mixed with ledge steals means a guarder will have to take more risk, which I like. It forces more variables into play for the guarding player.
Click to expand...
In my eyes, nothing he has shown thus far has indicated that Sakurai's balancing work has gone any farther than what one would expect for a game like this, and likely no farther than what effort was put into the previous Smash Bros. games. I'd love to be proven wrong, believe you me, but things like Sakurai saying that he's still handling all the balancing himself leave me very worried.

Edgehogging was never an instant win by any stretch of the imagination. Now, this is all leaping to conclusions a bit I admit, but it's very clear that the mechanic is getting nerfed at least somewhat. Which is worrisome because ledge game is extremely intrinsic to the appeal of Smash Bros. as a unique fighting game experience. If the person recovering has a significant additional advantage over the person guarding the ledge, well... I'm worried we might have another Brawl on our hands, with far too many characters recovering far too easily.

munchie64 said:
Not according to Sakurai :P
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Well, he did compare it to a sport on the old Dojo. Which is pretty close to being a fighting game, even if Sakurai prefers to call it an... action platformer or whatever he decided on.
 
C.Olimar788 said:
That's the thing. He makes posts like these that are clearly aimed at the competitive fanbase because they use terms and descriptions that wouldn't make a lot of sense for a casual player (recall the edge pic from last week and how a bunch of people thought him talking about 100%+ actions while grabbing the ledge meant grabbing another player). But they are all so incredibly shallow and/or seem to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of why the game works competitively in the first place. It's so frustrating.



In my eyes, nothing he has shown thus far has indicated that Sakurai's balancing work has gone any farther than what one would expect for a game like this, and likely no farther than what effort was put into the previous Smash Bros. games. I'd love to be proven wrong, believe you me, but things like Sakurai saying that he's still handling all the balancing himself leave me very worried.

Edgehogging was never an instant win by any stretch of the imagination. Now, this is all leaping to conclusions a bit I admit, but it's very clear that the mechanic is getting nerfed at least somewhat. Which is worrisome because ledge game is extremely intrinsic to the appeal of Smash Bros. as a unique fighting game experience. If the person recovering has a significant additional advantage over the person guarding the ledge, well... I'm worried we might have another Brawl on our hands, with far too many characters recovering far too easily.


Well, he did compare it to a sport on the old Dojo. Which is pretty close to being a fighting game, even if Sakurai prefers to call it an... action platformer or whatever he decided on.
Click to expand...


Okay; I definitely think you are underselling Sakurai's knowledge and expertise of the mechanics of his own game. Aspects of those edge mechanic tweaks seem to be specifically designed to counteract ledge stalling and sharking so IMO, it's a worthy change and shows that samurai pays attention to competitive smash.

I feel like you and others who become very involved in the competitive aspects mistake willful execution of what the artist deems appropriate, for ignorance and I think that's silly. He isn't catering to ultra competitive players of the FGC, he is making a king of the hill party game, that happens to have deeper mechanics than most games of that kind but this time, he seems to be atleast throwing competitive players a bone; which again... Us of that ilk should be thankful for.
 
C.Olimar788 said:
...so was this picture just an excuse for Sakurai to say "I really am taking gameplay elements into consideration this time! No, honest!" Because that's kind of what it seems like to me.

Congrats, Sakurai, you know that the usefulness of a character's move varies depending on how accurate it is, how many recovery frames it has, and even how that character plays outside of that move, impacting how the move can be woven into their game in the first place. We're all very, very proud of you. Now give us back Melee's air dodge.
Click to expand...

rwlHO4u.gif
 
C.Olimar788 said:
That's the thing. He makes posts like these that are clearly aimed at the competitive fanbase because they use terms and descriptions that wouldn't make a lot of sense for a casual player (recall the edge pic from last week and how a bunch of people thought him talking about 100%+ actions while grabbing the ledge meant grabbing another player). But they are all so incredibly shallow and/or seem to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of why the game works competitively in the first place. It's so frustrating.


I am also really hoping for this. Though I'm not sure I should get my hopes up, considering how long it took him to finally show us the Galaxy stage... and how we still have several 3DS stages that have only been vaguely teased with a single image. I wanna see that Find Mii stage, dangit!

I definitely don't think there's any chance of a daily image revealing a newcomer at this stage. It's just too beneficial to wait and use them as hype fuel for a Nintendo Direct or a similar type of event. So I... really hope we get a Nintendo Direct announced soon, haha. I wanna see Palutena's inevitable official announcement!


In my eyes, nothing he has shown thus far has indicated that Sakurai's balancing work has gone any farther than what one would expect for a game like this, and likely no farther than what effort was put into the previous Smash Bros. games. I'd love to be proven wrong, believe you me, but things like Sakurai saying that he's still handling all the balancing himself leave me very worried.

Edgehogging was never an instant win by any stretch of the imagination. Now, this is all leaping to conclusions a bit I admit, but it's very clear that the mechanic is getting nerfed at least somewhat. Which is worrisome because ledge game is extremely intrinsic to the appeal of Smash Bros. as a unique fighting game experience. If the person recovering has a significant additional advantage over the person guarding the ledge, well... I'm worried we might have another Brawl on our hands, with far too many characters recovering far too easily.


Well, he did compare it to a sport on the old Dojo. Which is pretty close to being a fighting game, even if Sakurai prefers to call it an... action platformer or whatever he decided on.
Click to expand...
I hope you know sakurai is the one who makes these games right? some things slip through the cracks sure, but the majority of things in these games were already known by sakurai and his team
 
munchie64 said:
Not according to Sakurai :P
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Wait! Where did he ever said this? His main approach for the Smash-Gameplay was to create a fighting-game with not a big need to learn combos. Since he was a big fighting-game fan, but just hasn't the time to get into the a game anymore.
 
Metal B said:
Wait! Where did he ever said this? His main approach for the Smash-Gameplay was to create a fighting-game with not a big need to learn combos. Since he was a big fighting-game fan, but just hasn't the time to get into the a game anymore.
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You don't need to learn combos in Smash. Literally anything you do can become a combo, that's what makes smash so amazing.

There are set combos and techs that players think up of, but there aren't any rules or set inputs and anyone has the freedom to create their own combo.
 
shunxsato said:
You don't need to learn combos in Smash. Literally anything you do can become a combo, that's what makes smash so amazing.

There are set combos and techs that players think up of, but there aren't any rules or set inputs and anyone has the freedom to create their own combo.
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Since we are the subject of competitive mechanics, what do you make of Marth's tech as he lands from that jump in the rosalina gravity well gif, Sato?

For reference:

http://i.minus.com/ibdhafQK2nbzDj.gif
 
Kyzon said:
Seems to me that as long as you aren't stuck in an ending animation or something, you can tech roll any land just as if you were in hitstun
Click to expand...

That's basically what I got from it except that to me, there doesn't seem to be any landing lag, or pressing shield and a direction cancels it and you tech roll instead. If this is the case then why aren't we taking about this more!?
 
Metal B said:
Wait! Where did he ever said this? His main approach for the Smash-Gameplay was to create a fighting-game with not a big need to learn combos. Since he was a big fighting-game fan, but just hasn't the time to get into the a game anymore.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure there was a famous quote going around that Sakurai thought of it as like a sport party game or something. Maybe I'm mistaken though since I couldn't find the direct quote.
 
DisconnectD said:
Since we are the subject of competitive mechanics, what do you make of Marth's tech as he lands from that jump in the rosalina gravity well gif, Sato?

For reference:

http://i.minus.com/ibdhafQK2nbzDj.gif
Click to expand...

If it's as close as we get to wavedashing then I'll take it.

I hope SSB4 will be a tad bit faster, but from the looks of it, it doesn't seem like a safe option. Something like that can be read and punished since there is noticable lag at the end of the roll. In that amount of time, a person could react to that and go for a fair grab.

We'd have to see more footage because you wouldn't be able to tell much just from landing regularly. If we were going to go into depth, we'd need to see the amount of lag with an aerial move and that's really what everyone's looking for.

That being said, I do hope the directional air dodges return and I hope there is a way to build momentum because a tech roll isn't going to cut it when you go for a follow up.

The difference between Marths in Melee and Brawl are so noticeable when you compare the f-airs and b-airs. You need to find a way to safely and reliably approach the opponent when you do your aerials so that you can combo. In Melee, this was achieved through wavedashing and L-Cancelling in between the hitstun.

In brawl, it was much slower with the lack of momentum and the lack of stun on the opponent.

The tech is nice, but it's far from what we need if we want more offensive oriented gameplay.
 
munchie64 said:
I'm pretty sure there was a famous quote going around that Sakurai thought of it as like a sport party game or something. Maybe I'm mistaken though since I couldn't find the direct quote.
Click to expand...

"When planning the development of a new game, I always take a lot of care to discuss the concept and try to define it as best I can. For example, I like to think of Smash as a four-player battle royal action game. You'll notice that's a lot longer than saying it's a fighting game, because 'fighting game' is a completely different label. You can talk about a fighting game or an action game or a racing game, but as soon as you define your game specifically in those terms, you start limiting your creative range because you're thinking of the limitations of that genre. Perhaps the best thing we can do now is start with a concept rather than a genre. If we can do that, perhaps we can grow the whole idea a little bit."


Source: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...nt-fighting-genre-and-value-unpredictability/
 
DisconnectD said:
That's basically what I got from it except that to me, there doesn't seem to be any landing lag, or pressing shield and a direction cancels it and you tech roll instead. If this is the case then why aren't we taking about this more!?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what I meant. I think people aren't talking about it because Sakurai hasn't mentioned it, and I don't think we've seen any other instance of it.
 
Meh Pic

DisconnectD said:
That's basically what I got from it except that to me, there doesn't seem to be any landing lag, or pressing shield and a direction cancels it and you tech roll instead. If this is the case then why aren't we taking about this more!?
Click to expand...

Ah from the other day. It's about the hype lol and I guess with more footage we will be able to know for sure. Yea I see it better now..I think, right as Marth hits the ground you kinda see the little "effects" as if he's tech'd the landing and went straight into the roll. I'm assuming if it was not done with the right timing we would at least see the shield go up for a small amount of time?
 
shunxsato said:
The difference between Marths in Melee and Brawl are so noticeable when you compare the f-airs and b-airs. You need to find a way to safely and reliably approach the opponent when you do your aerials so that you can combo. In Melee, this was achieved through wavedashing and L-Cancelling in between the hitstun.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the lengthy and informative reply. Let's get one thing straight though: L-canceling may have been a thing in past games before brawl, but let's just hope sakurai shortens landing lag for smash 4, instead of adding more button presses to achieve the same effect, yeah?

Edit: which based on the early mega vs Mario fight, landing lag from arials seems significantly shorter than brawl.
 
still hoping for a june release date got to have something to do in the summer

also I have over 300 post and been a member since 08 so why am i still a junior member
 
SmithnCo said:
Didn't Pit always have a faster rate of fire, Link still seems screwed in this situation.
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Yes and not really, Link has more distance to cover than Link.

Someone should see what happens in Brawl.

EDIT: Well the same thing happens in Brawl, just as PK Gaming described below.
 
SmithnCo said:
Didn't Pit always have a faster rate of fire, Link still seems screwed in this situation.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I'm pretty sure the reason why the arrows are cancelled near Pit is because Link's arrow was full charged.

Link's arrows only move fast and cover more distance when they're fully charged. Pit's travel at their max range from the get go, hence why his (and Toon Link's arrows to a certain extent) were generally better.
 
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