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1977:Exxon Scientists confirm fossil combustion causes AGW. Proceed to lie/obfuscate

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I hope there is a huge, trillion dollar law suite in a few years.

http://gizmodo.com/exxon-scientists-knew-fossil-fuels-caused-climate-chang-1731707762

"It’s a story reminiscent of the way Big Tobacco covered up the deadly effects of smoking. In the 1980s, Exxon spent millions of dollars on groundbreaking research which irrefutably showed how their products would change the climate. And then they buried it all."

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...confirmed-fossil-fuels-role-in-global-warming

""Top Exxon scientists began warning management about fossil fuels and climate change in 1977"
"They didn't heed the warnings and doubled-down on keeping them a secret:
The warnings would later grow more urgent. In a 1982 document marked “not to be distributed externally,” the company’s environmental affairs office wrote that preventing global warming would require sharp cuts in fossil fuel use. Failure to do so, the document said, could result in “some potentially catastrophic events” that “might not be reversible.”"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...gnored-its-own-early-climate-change-warnings/

"In 1978, the Exxon researchers warned that a doubling of CO2 levels in the atmosphere would increase average global temperatures by 2 to 3 degrees Celsius and would have a major impact on the company’s core business."

"The warnings would later grow more urgent. In a 1982 document marked “not to be distributed externally,” the company’s environmental affairs office wrote that preventing global warming would require sharp cuts in fossil fuel use. Failure to do so, the document said, could result in “some potentially catastrophic events” that “might not be reversible.”"

" The report notes that by the 1990s:

Exxon helped to found and lead the Global Climate Coalition, an alliance of some of the world’s largest companies seeking to halt government efforts to curb fossil fuel emissions. Exxon used the American Petroleum Institute, right-wing think tanks, campaign contributions and its own lobbying to push a narrative that climate science was too uncertain to necessitate cuts in fossil fuel emissions."


http://www.wired.com/2015/09/exxons-scientists-confirmed-climate-changein-70s/?mbid=social_fb

"Exxon’s own scientists spoke about climate change with certainty. "


"The results of an eight-month investigation by InsideClimate News, published Wednesday, show that Exxon scientist warned company executives decades ago about human-caused global warming.

But despite its own 40-year-old research that showed that burning fossil fuels released carbon dioxide that was warming the planet to harmful levels, Exxon – the United States' largest oil company – has spent $30 million to discredit climate science to protect its carbon-based business."

". The company’s research and engineering division comprised a team of accomplished scientists and mathematicians who worked with university scientists and the US Department of Energy to develop sophisticated climate models. They spent three years and at least $1 million measuring the levels of CO2 in the air and ocean aboard the company’s Esso Atlantic tanker, the InsideClimate report explains.

Exxon scientists published their research in peer-reviewed science journals.

By 1982, company scientists reported to management that despite the need for more research, controlling global warming “would require major reductions in fossil fuel combustion.”

According to InsideClimate:

Unless that happened, "there are some potentially catastrophic events that must be considered," the primer said, citing independent experts. "Once the effects are measurable, they might not be reversible."
InsideClimate's review of corporate financial reports filed during the height of the company’s climate research era showed that the company did not relay the gloomy results to shareholders."

"“With alarm bells suddenly ringing,” reports InsideClimate, “Exxon started financing efforts to amplify doubt about the state of climate science."

Shell is in deep water too:
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-strategy-risking-catastrophic-climate-change

"Royal Dutch Shell has been accused of pursuing a strategy that would lead to potentially catastrophic climate change after an internal document acknowledged a global temperature rise of 4C, twice the level considered safe for the planet.

A paper used for guiding future business planning at the Anglo-Dutch multinational assumes that carbon dioxide emissions will fail to limit temperature increases to 2C, the internationally agreed threshold to prevent widespread flooding, famine and desertification.


'Don't mention the Arctic': Shell embarrassed by video competition row
Read more
Instead, the New Lens Scenarios document refers to a forecast by the independent International Energy Agency (IEA) that points to a temperature rise of up to 4C in the short term, rising later to 6C."

Complementary to this report is additional information from the Union of Concerned Scientists:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global-warmin...siers-fossil-fuel-industry-memos#.Vf25xt9Vikq

Finally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj0PYdl99tI
 
Do you come down on Exxon specifically, or big oil in general? What would the next step be?

Pretty Much all of the big fossil fuel companies. Many of them, including big coal companies like Peabody Energy and Arch Coal, based here in St.Louis have funded huge denial/ obfuscation campaigns.

We have to end the huge fossil fuel subsidies that are on going now ( IMF estimates at 5.3 Trillion/ Year)

Then I think we need a revenue neutral fee for fossil emissions. Income and sales tax can be eliminated or reduced so that food prices don't go up, and/or that families can still enjoy AC and heating. However, people would be incintivized to spend their extra money on cheaper low carbon products. This would fuel a rapid shift to low/ zero carbon energy and transportation solutions.
 
Do you come down on Exxon specifically, or big oil in general? What would the next step be?

Also, See this:

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-strategy-risking-catastrophic-climate-change


"Royal Dutch Shell has been accused of pursuing a strategy that would lead to potentially catastrophic climate change after an internal document acknowledged a global temperature rise of 4C, twice the level considered safe for the planet.

A paper used for guiding future business planning at the Anglo-Dutch multinational assumes that carbon dioxide emissions will fail to limit temperature increases to 2C, the internationally agreed threshold to prevent widespread flooding, famine and desertification.

Instead, the New Lens Scenarios document refers to a forecast by the independent International Energy Agency (IEA) that points to a temperature rise of up to 4C in the short term, rising later to 6C."
 

Joey Fox

Self-Actualized Member
It's already too late right? I'd start looking at properties near fresh water and away from the ocean. Doing that myself within a year.
 
It's already too late right? I'd start looking at properties near fresh water and away from the ocean. Doing that myself within a year.

For Sea Level Rise, we probably have 10 Feet or more locked in, in the long term due to the irreversible collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2014-148

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=83672

http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/05/12/west-antarctic-ice-sheet-collapse-is-under-way/

Right now we are at + 1 C with another ~ .5 C locked in due to the fossil combustion that has already ocured. We have to take drastic action within the next decade or we or going to lock in 2 C... if we wait till mid century, then we are talking about lockin in 3 or 4 C.. on to 6 C...

I don't think we could survive 4 C or more of warming. We are then talking about irreversible changes to the hydrological cycle. See my Post on Quora for more:
Its the last comment by Chris Downs:
https://www.quora.com/Interstellar-...ific-climatic-projection-and-its-consequences
 

temp

posting on contract only
What else could we expect from a system that by necessity puts profits above everything else. It's not just a problem with one company or one industry. There's no incentive for them to account for anything but making money.
 
Maybe this will finally shut up the GOP? Nah, of course not.

It's already too late right? I'd start looking at properties near fresh water and away from the ocean. Doing that myself within a year.
For any place likely to be hit by the expected sea rise, yeah, it's too late.

For avoiding the opening scenes of Interstellar ... we still have a chance. But it gets slimmer every time (for example) another natural gas plant is built for "clean power".
 

kess

Member
So we are not going to destroy our economy. We are not going to make America a harder place to create jobs in order to pursue policies that will do absolutely nothing, nothing to change our climate, to change our weather, because America is a lot of things, the greatest country in the world, absolutely.

-Marco Rubio
 

Bowdz

Member
So we are not going to destroy our economy. We are not going to make America a harder place to create jobs in order to pursue policies that will do absolutely nothing, nothing to change our climate, to change our weather, because America is a lot of things, the greatest country in the world, absolutely.

-Marco Rubio

XLGt6.jpg
 
Is there any way to merge this with the Shell thread?

We could ask a moderator. The two basically go hand in hand.

Heck, it pisses me off that Shell is still trying to drill in the arctic, to burn oil that we cannot burn if we want to have a place to live.
 
Fast track alternative energy, and tell the oil companies to go fuck themselves. That's what we should be doing.

How exactly do you fast track alternative energy when you have massive amounts of NIMBYism and random environmental groups fighting back every time anyone wants to install a wind/solar farm?

And don't even get me started on how hard it can be for an individual to install their own solar/wind systems. That's some fucking bullshit right there.
 
How exactly do you fast track alternative energy when you have massive amounts of NIMBYism and random environmental groups fighting back every time anyone wants to install a wind/solar farm?

And don't even get me started on how hard it can be for an individual to install their own solar/wind systems. That's some fucking bullshit right there.
Those problems are symptoms of things not being fast-tracked.

But speaking of bullshit, think about how the US treats diesel engined cars -- a.k.a, the ones that can run off of gloried vegetable oil (a.k.a carbon neutral!) We treat them like they're no different than gas engined cars. Gotta make those emission standards equal!
 

Walpurgis

Banned
So we are not going to destroy our economy. We are not going to make America a harder place to create jobs in order to pursue policies that will do absolutely nothing, nothing to change our climate, to change our weather, because America is a lot of things, the greatest country in the world, absolutely.

-Marco Rubio

sZYNN36.gif
 

Chichikov

Member
How exactly do you fast track alternative energy when you have massive amounts of NIMBYism and random environmental groups fighting back every time anyone wants to install a wind/solar farm?

And don't even get me started on how hard it can be for an individual to install their own solar/wind systems. That's some fucking bullshit right there.
It's not environmental groups that are holding clean energy back.
Like, there might be local cases where some groups put in minor roadblocks, but as a whole, it's the big oil (and gas and coal) companies and the politicians they bought which are holding us back.
 
NPRs on the media did a story about this article and they interviewed Exxon's media dude. Most infuriating interview ever. Dude was dodging like a mofo
 

antonz

Member
How exactly do you fast track alternative energy when you have massive amounts of NIMBYism and random environmental groups fighting back every time anyone wants to install a wind/solar farm?

And don't even get me started on how hard it can be for an individual to install their own solar/wind systems. That's some fucking bullshit right there.

Wind and Solar are not at a stage where they can even come close to being considered for base load demand. We should have been investing in Nuclear years ago for Baseload power generation and as Wind and solar mature as does our ability to store power they could begin to eat into the baseload demand.

Though Nuclear is the prime example of environmentalists and Nimbyism screwing things up
 

Gallbaro

Banned
Perfect opportunity for someone like trump to convert the right wing. "They lied to you, you are not the idiotic fools who those that Jesus would not let that happen to America, THEY lied to you and deceived you."

Then publicly try one or two people, not the CEOs of course.

Who am I kidding.
 
They could have leaked the information. But you're right.

have you seen the insider

it's about the guy who leaked all of the tobacco stuff that the cigarette companies were lying about and all the stuff they did to try to shut him up

shit like that is why scientists who find stuff like this can't just leak it out as easily as you think they can
 
We're very possibly fucked because of this. We could have had almost 30 years of time to avert the disasters that would come because of global warming. And we didn't because some people in a boardroom decided to preserve their profit margin instead of millions of people. If there has ever been a more telling sign of human nature, please direct me to it.

But, 30 years of time would have been enough to fast-track electric car development, and properly look into alternative energy. It could have been time for more research into the environment. It could have time used for so much more than what we've done.

We're fucked. Because of people who put profit lines above people. Because of people who put party lines & rhetoric above logic and sensible actions. When society falls, it'll be because of these people. The short-sighted, the selfish, and the profit-driven.
 
We're very possibly fucked because of this. We could have had almost 30 years of time to avert the disasters that would come because of global warming. And we didn't because some people in a boardroom decided to preserve their profit margin instead of millions of people. If there has ever been a more telling sign of human nature, please direct me to it.

But, 30 years of time would have been enough to fast-track electric car development, and properly look into alternative energy. It could have been time for more research into the environment. It could have time used for so much more than what we've done.

We're fucked. Because of people who put profit lines above people. Because of people who put party lines & rhetoric above logic and sensible actions. When society falls, it'll be because of these people. The short-sighted, the selfish, and the profit-driven.

socialism is designed as the perfect system for society where everybody gets to live an incredibly comfortable life without needing to worry about financial issues and any luxury item would be obtainable by anybody but it would never work in practice as shown with russian communism because human greed results in a small group of people seizing all of the power and exploiting the system to make the perfectly equal society unequal in their favor.
 
I hate being right sometimes, but I've known for the last 5 or so years that we are fucked and there is nothing anyone can do. I give us 25-30 years tops before things are totally screwed and billions of people are dead from it. This stuff is just going to accelerate and compound on itself. Could have fixed this shit 50 years ago.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
socialism is designed as the perfect system for society where everybody gets to live an incredibly comfortable life without needing to worry about financial issues and any luxury item would be obtainable by anybody but it would never work in practice as shown with russian communism because human greed results in a small group of people seizing all of the power and exploiting the system to make the perfectly equal society unequal in their favor.

This post is confusing, not even sure how it relates to the post you are replying too.
 
This post is confusing, not even sure how it relates to the post you are replying too.

he asked for a more telling sign of human nature

i explained how socialism is designed to be a perfect system but would never work because humans are inherently greedy
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
he asked for a more telling sign of human nature

i explained how socialism is designed to be a perfect system but would never work because humans are inherently greedy

Oh, that was the connection you were going for.
Yes, a system needs a combination of checks and balances to prevent abuse of power, and in particular a mechanism to punish abuses. Lessons have been learned from earlier experiments in socialist societies. Personally, I like a hybrid of a few systems of government. Socialism to handle core "needs" and free market to handle everything else.

We don't piece the corporate veil anymore, and it's part of the reason we are on the path we are on. When the sole penalty in a personable sense is losing your job, or the company collapsing, who cares? No one is going to jail, just take whatever risks you want!

Back to the core topic at hand, the blame can't be placed solely on the oil companies, it's been a concerted effort to ignore the likelihood for decades now by governments and directly involved corporations.
 

Joe

Member
It gets even more infuriating when you contrast it with the outrage over Microsoft wanting to release an all-digital video game system.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It gets even more infuriating when you contrast it with the outrage over Microsoft wanting to release an all-digital video game system.

While being a really terrible comparison. It does bring up an interesting point.
The situation worked out the way it did because people felt they had influence, there were alternatives for consumers.

The free market fails miserably with monopolies or actions that have significant negative effects outside the working entities. Did consumers have a viable alternative to a gas or diesel vehicle at any point?

Edit: If you are measuring outrage, it's been there in waves for decades. Of course a gaming forum is going to make a considerable stink about the situation consoles.
 

BriGuy

Member
One of the reasons I don't necessarily want kids. I might be able to live out the rest of my life in relative comfort, but what about them or their own children? How do you explain our inaction? How do you apologize for it?
 
While being a really terrible comparison. It does bring up an interesting point.
The situation worked out the way it did because people felt they had influence, there were alternatives for consumers.

The free market fails miserably with monopolies or actions that have significant negative effects outside the working entities. Did consumers have a viable alternative to a gas or diesel vehicle at any point?

Edit: If you are measuring outrage, it's been there in waves for decades. Of course a gaming forum is going to make a considerable stink about the situation consoles.

not really.. hybrid cars are becoming main stream and iwthin 3 or 4 years we will have completely electric vehicles for less than $35,000..
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
not really.. hybrid cars are becoming main stream and iwthin 3 or 4 years we will have completely electric vehicles for less than $35,000..

I laugh at hybrid cars since they are a band-aid to the real problem. Stricter efficiency standards and moderately higher gas taxes should have been put into place decades ago. Instead, we saw an SUV and Horsepower craze so people can feel better about their tiny penises.

Really though, it's difficult to say where we would be now if we at least applied more effort than just acknowledging there is a problem. Of course, WE CAN'T EVEN DO THAT since one political party, a majority of their members can't even fucking do that.

Edit: What has pushed recent efficiency improvements has primarily been higher fuel prices. The problem is, and is once again a core problem of free market economics, it assumes that all problems can be solved, and removes the incentives of planning and long-term thinking. We are decades behind where we should be, mostly in part due to the lack of any incentives to change. The "Fuck You I Got Mine" Is so pervasive, it's up to governments to fight back against it, that has not happened.
 

milanbaros

Member?
Edit: What has pushed recent efficiency improvements has primarily been higher fuel prices. The problem is, and is once again a core problem of free market economics, it assumes that all problems can be solved, and removes the incentives of planning and long-term thinking. We are decades behind where we should be, mostly in part due to the lack of any incentives to change. The "Fuck You I Got Mine" Is so pervasive, it's up to governments to fight back against it, that has not happened.

In the UK a lot of it has been EU legislation driving the increase in efficiency. If Americans chose to drive similar cars to Europe that would be a positive step.
 
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