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[Joni]

This is obviously dated but I saw it on twitter and though it was informative regarding integration and discrimination in France. This is more disproportionate than the US's rate with African Americans.

That is true. The prison population on the other hand is also smaller, so despite the higher disproportion, a muslim in France still has less chance of getting into prison. Both populations have racial prejucide working against them, but the American jucidial system has inflated the prison population - http://www.prisonstudies.org - meaning African Americans are disproportionally more likely to end up in prison than Muslims.

France has a prison population of 68,295. The highest estimate (70%) would put it at 47.000 Muslim inmates.
France has a population of 66,394,000. The estimate for the muslim population (12%) would put them at 8 million.
It means 1 in 170 muslims is in prison.

The United States has a prison population of 2,228,424. The estimate (40%) would put them at 890.000 black inmates.
The United States has a population of 320,064,285. The estimate of the black population (13,2%) would put them at 42,248,485 million.
It means 1 in 47 black people is in prison.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

That is true. The prison population on the other hand is also smaller, so despite the higher disproportion, a muslim in France still has less chance of getting into prison. Both populations have racial prejucide working against them, but the American jucidial system has inflated the prison population - http://www.prisonstudies.org - meaning African Americans are disproportionally more likely to end up in prison than Muslims.

France has a prison population of 68,295. The highest estimate (70%) would put it at 47.000 Muslim inmates.
France has a population of 66,394,000. The estimate for the muslim population (12%) would put them at 8 million.
It means 1 in 170 muslims is in prison.

The United States has a prison population of 2,228,424. The estimate (40%) would put them at 890.000 black inmates.
The United States has a population of 320,064,285. The estimate of the black population (13,2%) would put them at 42,248,485 million.
It means 1 in 47 black people is in prison.

This is most certainly true as well

 

[CadetMahoney]

Interesting that they do not keep official stats. It smells.

I wonder if you're required to still fill in a form stating your religion. . . if it's not ever put in any record or stats because it's illegal why would they still require it? If you're arrested do they still require you fill in race on some form?

 

[FDC1]

Wow, I did not expect such a high number. Interesting that they do not keep official stats. It smells of trying to hide a problem.

Classify people according to their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc... is illegal in France. It's nothing new. Stop seeing conspiracies everywhere guys.

It's impossible to say if this numbers are correct or no but yes muslims are certainly overrepresented in jail. I'd say it's more representative of a social/economical problem than of a racial/religious problem (not saying there is no racism problem in france, there is), sadly I'm pretty sure you could take any country in the world and you'll find a overrepresentation of some of the local minorities.

 

[captainnapalm]

This is very important to understanding Europe's Islam problem and in fact the world's Islam problem. Socio-economics and class structure are central to the issue - not religion. This is what the Bill Mahers of the world fail to understand.

From what I understand the recent shootings in France were committed by guys who were known at one point as being pot smokers and drinkers - in other words not religious at all by Islamic standards. But at some point they must have been approached and radicalised.

Yes, there are muslims from better backgrounds who also embrace extremism, but these people would not be able to thrive if they didn't have the poor, uneducated, frustrated and vulnerable to exploit.

This is happening on a much larger scale in the middle east as well, in many of the countries ravaged by war and conflict.

 

[2San]

I'm Dutch Turkish Muslim and I have been discriminated many times. Even tho my Dutch is perfect and I have many Dutch friends.

One time I heard a business owner say: "why do you take foreigners in to work for you if you can hire real Dutch people?"

Still, I got a nice education and a job, but I can imagine how soul crushing it can be when you don't have any perspective and also get discriminated against.

Dutch people really love to pretend like the problem doesn't exist. When you look a certain way (aka Turkish or Moroccan) you get pulled over way more for some reason.

It isn't that bad for me since I'm South-Asian, but I still get situations where I'm just screwed. I remember as a teen getting into a fight with a white kid (he attacked me first). I have spotless track record, but the dean sided with the white kid and told him to press charges. I was in luck since there where plenty of eye witnesses. So we both got a warning, such fucking bullshit.

I still love living here since they do offer genuine opportunities even to the disadvantaged, but I hate that people act like there is no problem.

This is very important to understanding Europe's Islam problem and in fact the world's Islam problem. Socio-economics and class structure are central to the issue - not religion. This is what the Bill Mahers of the world fail to understand.

True despite discrimination (based on race or religion) taking place. I'd say socio-economics is the central issue.

Glad I'm not the only one who has experienced this. When I started applying for my first summer job, all I heard was that they didn't like the color of my skin and it wouldn't sit right with their customers.

Spoiler

I'm a white dude, grew up in a Muslim neighborhood. Racism works both ways.

Racism works both ways, but it's pretty much the minorities that are screwed on a consistent basis. It's not even comparable.

 

[MistakenMobius]

French government killed 200,000 catholic during the qars in Vendee because those guys wanted to continue follow the church.
We are taking laicism far more seriously than any other country.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Classify people according to their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc... is illegal in France. It's nothing new. Stop seeing conspiracies everywhere guys.

Indeed, last time list were kept, it was in the 40's and it didn't end well for the Israelites...

 

[theignoramus]

60 to 70 percent of crimes aren't committed by Muslims, same as the US system either the system looks the other way at non-muslim criminals or targets crimes that muslims tend to commit. Its racism and oppression 101. I hear bull connor teaches a class.

12% of the population yet over two thirds of incarcerated are Muslim.
Reminds me of the disparity in the US penal system.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Glad I'm not the only one who has experienced this. When I started applying for my first summer job, all I heard was that they didn't like the color of my skin and it wouldn't sit right with their customers.

Spoiler

I'm a white dude, grew up in a Muslim neighborhood. Racism works both ways.

That is equally bad. It's fucking 2015 why does discrimination still exist?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Bullshit.

"according to Muslim leaders, (insert semblance of authority)..."

That's her answer, presented by the writer as a supposed fact. Or at the very least questionably presented to imply "factness".

Looking at what comes up on Google, there are no actual official stats (France takes secularism very seriously, which I imagine is why the religion of inmates is considered irrelevant. Veil of ignorance and all that), and to boot the guesses are 30 to 70% meaning nobody fucking knows.

I took offence at the mention of sociologists, sue me.

Yeah, while I have no doubt there are issues here, taking it as gospel what vested interests have to say doesn't inspire me with confidence. The French government should be tracking statistics for this stuff, though—you can't adequately address a problem if you don't know its extent.

That is equally bad. It's fucking 2015 why does discrimination still exist?

Because people have racist parents, and people generally prefer the company of people that are similar to them, in looks and values.

 

[Snaku]

The most important thing is to say there is no correlation between Islam and "X"

Fill in the blank.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

12% of the population yet over two thirds of incarcerated are Muslim.
Reminds me of the disparity in the US penal system.

its a more pronounced dispartity

 

[Jeels]

And this is why I never buy this whole it's because of the faith argument. The stuff going on in Europe is very similar to the racist stuff that goes on with African Americans in the US and the anti immigration stuff that happens with hispanics in the US.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Those numbers are insane. Read a different article about the conditions at one of the prisons where one of the attackers was sent to. France's prison system sounds fucked up.

 

[Randam]

its their Black people

Its their poor people without much perspective.

 

[G.ZZZ]

What do you expect? Do you see how a lot of immigrants come to europe? On boats where they are cramped, and lots of them die on the sea because of lack of space, water, and food. What do you think is their prospect after arriving here, getting a management position? A lot of them can't even get social security because they're illegal. Those are generations fated to get into crime organization as sad as it sound. And it doesn't depend on when they're from. Italians in america an hundred year ago, easter europeans and Albanian 20 years ago, and now mostly north africans with the Arab Spring.
Our prisons are basically all full of Eastern europeans and northern africans, and the governement always complain because there isn't enough space them and we can't send them back because they are either political refugees or coming from countries in the Schengen area. Most people that get stopped for theft can't even go to prison because they got no documents, so they spend a day or two in a cell, and then get free as the prosecutor can't be bothered to open a penal case on trivial shit like this.

The real bullshit is the fact that you can get a lot on minor infractions (up to 15 years for cannabis possession in Italy) but you actually CAN NOT GO to prison for fiscal fraud.

Anyone who think this is a racial profiling problem is delusional, this shit was true 30 years ago when our prisons were full of eastern europeans and those guys are more white and more christian than us. It's been true of almost every immigrant wave that came here (20 years ago it was all the rage to be racist vs albanian), with the exception of asians (no one seems to care about those, well my best friend was chinese and he got in far less legal shit than us but w/e). It's purely an economic issue, or war against the poor if you prefer. Social security has been on a decline from the early '80s, and sadly in name of war on "thieves" what we actually got was a war on poors and whoever stole from the sistem still does.

 

[TedNindo]

Is Christmas really a religious holiday anymore in western Europe?

A lot of the Christmas traditions are pagan in origin anyway. It was more of a clusterfuck of different end of year celebrations that combined over time and got turned into a Christian one.

It's more of an evolving tradition.

 

[Baki]

Why do they deny halal meat if they are the majority at this point?

Also this reminds me of the french movie "a prophet"




Damn respect for this dude...

Because France is a country with terrible and isolating policies. Also racism is a serious issue in France.

 

[jakonovski]

Damn, these skeletons in Europe's closet are getting really embarrassing.

 

[Damaniel]

its their Black people

Yep. You spend all your time oppressing a particular group of people, then don't be surprised if they push back. Of course, the government has disproportionate power (marginalized groups can't just toss police or government officials in jail), so it's not really fair to begin with.

If their government (and ours) spent more time working to eliminate poverty and offer equal opportunity to everybody, if the justice system concentrated more on rehabilitation than retribution, and if people would stop being so damn bigoted for once, maybe we could get those disproportionate prisoner numbers (and the number of prisoners in general) way down.

 

[effzee]

A lot of the Christmas traditions are pagan in origin anyway. It was more of a clusterfuck of different end of year celebrations that combined over time and got turned into a Christian one.

It's more of an evolving tradition.

That's all besides the point. Christmas is a Christian religious holiday. That it's turned into a global marketing ploy is after the fact. If they are allowing Christmas gifts into prison I doubt they distinguished the holiday as non religious.

 

[Henrar]

Yep. You spend all your time oppressing a particular group of people, then don't be surprised if they push back. Of course, the government has disproportionate power (marginalized groups can't just toss police or government officials in jail), so it's not really fair to begin with.

Muslims were opressed in Europe? When? It's not the problem of some kind of "opression". It's the problem of a group of Muslims (and other immigrants) that don't integrate with the society of the country they moved to. It's a different thing that a situation of minorities in USA.
If they were truly opressed here, they wouldn't be here.

If their government (and ours) spent more time working to eliminate poverty and offer equal opportunity to everybody, if the justice system concentrated more on rehabilitation than retribution, and if people would stop being so damn bigoted for once, maybe we could get those disproportionate prisoner numbers (and the number of prisoners in general) way down.

Define "more time working to eliminate poverty".

 

[FonkyByNature]

As a half Algerian with a muslim name, i would never live in France. The country is probably more racist than the US. Yeah, it's that bad, especially now that the Charlie Hebdo event happened.

If you're Black, Arab, Muslim or all of them, since many people come from Africa and many of them are either Black or Brown muslim, then you need to work 3x harder than white person.

Sometimes, the world is just so depressing !

 

[Blackstarhat]

Muslims in france are like african americans.

 

[Stereogatari]

What is the criteria for Muslim beyond the fact these inmates come from a Muslim background? I doubt most of them are 5 times a day, Quran bashing types (seeing as they ended up in prison in the first place their interests lie elsewhere).

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Turks in European jails have origins in the South-East of Turkey and overlap with Kurds.

I'm a British born Turk and I'll be honest: I feel like a White European person (but my Turkish identity is still my primary identity). Don't feel any discrimination at all. Not that I or my ethnic group speaks for all British Muslims (since many Turks look like Europeans), but the problem of integration here is obviously more inherent in other Muslim communities (and darker skinned people in general). I've occasionally got into discussions on this subject with South Asian friends, talking about how this country isn't racist, but they've replied saying I wouldn't understand because I'm not brown (I'm not white either, but olive skinned).

I'm Dutch Turkish Muslim and I have been discriminated many times. Even tho my Dutch is perfect and I have many Dutch friends.

One time I heard a business owner say: "why do you take foreigners in to work for you if you can hire real Dutch people?"

Still, I got a nice education and a job, but I can imagine how soul crushing it can be when you don't have any perspective and also get discriminated against.

Sorry to hear that. I think us Turks in the UK get it easier than our continental kin.

 

[FonkyByNature]

Muslims were opressed in Europe? When? It's not the problem of some kind of "opression". It's the problem of a group of Muslims (and other immigrants) that don't integrate with the society of the country they moved to. It's a different thing that a situation of minorities in USA.
If they were truly opressed here, they wouldn't be here.

So the solution is to go back to where you come from ? what about people that are born in Europe and even their parents were born in Europe too ? should they go back ?

Bottom line, it's not so easy as some people say, racism doesn't work that way. Sure there's a group of minorities that act like assholes but that's a given in any situation. We're talking majority here.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Unemployment rate for Muslims in France is close to 20%... not surprised. When your CV has a Muslim name on it, some employers throw it in the trash immediately.

 

[Alx]

Unemployment rate for Muslims in France is close to 20%... not surprised. When your CV has a Muslim name on it, employers throw it in the trash immediately.

Ahem, some employers. In my company we hired people from all origins.
Also I know what an Arab name is, but I don't think there is such a thing as a Muslim name.

 

[Henrar]

So the solution is to go back to where you come from ? what about people that are born in Europe and even their parents were born in Europe too ? should they go back ?

If they work here, know the language and they integrated here - no, absolutely not, since they contribute to society in meaningful way. However, if they don't or they commit crimes - they should be thrown out of the country. That goes for any immigrants, not just muslims.

Bottom line, it's not so easy as some people say, racism doesn't work that way. Sure there's a group of minorities that act like assholes but that's a given in any situation. We're talking majority here.

Do we know what crimes those muslims commited before they went to prison? I think we don't have enough data. Mind you - I don't say everyone in prison has been convicted justly.

 

[TedNindo]

That's all besides the point. Christmas is a Christian religious holiday. That it's turned into a global marketing ploy is after the fact. If they are allowing Christmas gifts into prison I doubt they distinguished the holiday as non religious.

Should it be considered a christian holiday though? Because its origins sure aren't. The church and puritans were against it in the 1600s. It was even banned for a while by the protestant church because of its pagan origins.

I don't see how it couldn't be celebrated without Christian imagery attached to it. Most imagery isn't Christian related in the first place.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Ahem, some employers. In my company we hired people from all origins.
Also I know what an Arab name is, but I don't think there is such a thing as a Muslim name.

Edited.

I'm pretty sure names like "Mohammed" and "Ahmet" are used in all Muslim communities. I might be wrong though. But yeah, you can add Arab-sounding names in there too.

 

[Ushay]

This sucks, but I'm doubting the figures for some reason. Can it really be 70%? Holy shit that's disproportionately high.

 

[Alx]

Edited.

I'm pretty sure names like "Mohammed" and "Ahmet" are used in all Muslim communities. I might be wrong though. But yeah, you can add Arab-sounding names in there too.

Well yeah culturally Mohammed is popular because of the muslim prophet, just like Christopher is linked to christianity or David to judaism. But I wouldn't say they're a good indicator of religion.
Anyway there is a problem with people with foreign names and employment, as was demonstrated more than once by associations, but it's more an issue of pure racism than religion (I'm not saying it's better nor worse, though).

 

[NYCmetsfan]

edit: nvm

 

[Stereogatari]

Edited.

I'm pretty sure names like "Mohammed" and "Ahmet" are used in all Muslim communities. I might be wrong though. But yeah, you can add Arab-sounding names in there too.

You are right, but the -t ending is a Turkish thing (and Turkish influenced cultures like Balkans). Turkish names with Arabic origins tend to have different spellings. Eg. Mahmut instead of Mahmood, Zeynep instead of Zainab, Ayşe instead of Aisha, Mehmet instead of Muhammad (though the full versions of Muhammet and Muhammad also exist), Emir instead of Amir, Faruk instead of Farooq, Celal instead of Jalaal. This may or may not help Turks inadvertently hide their Muslimness more easily compared to others. Also many Turks have Turkish and Persian origin names with no obvious links to Islam at all.