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[charlesthefirst]

A Black Falcon: Not quite even that in this case.

I have to ask outright now, because this is turning into that same situation I had growing up where I saw the ep of Star Trek: TnG that was essentially "Sex to Stone" and nobody believed me that it existed:

Has or does ANYBODY else but me read/remember the articles in one of the old American gaming mags in the leadup to Castlevania 64? I can't remember which mag, no do I have scans....but it was several pages long and might've spanned more than one issue.

Castlevania 64..and even the improved semi-sequel barely resemble what was talked about in those intereviews with the dev crew, screenshots, modeling shots, etc----we're talking damn near a 180 degree turn here.

As per my recollection(honestly best I can recall and I'd love to be remembering some of this to less severe degrees if somebody can come up with the articles to quote from):

-The day night system was the farthest thing from the cosmetic event triggering and stat modifiying we got in the N64 Vania's. The vampires in the game other than Dracula, the basics, were to such a point where, in many cases, unless you could wrangle a pitched situation long enough to get them into sunlight somehow or another---you stood next to no chance. But it wasn't a brutal kill-a-thon either....they were going for something between Masquerade and Bram Stoker. Some vamps were towns people on the sly the characters were meant to interact with....hence the sexual aspect of the game. Really, it was moving the series in a RPG/Adventure direction to an unusually frank degree as opposed to a pure DMC or what have you. I vividly recall a nude (yes) shot of a female vampire ingame looking model beckoning as one of the many screenshots.

-There was the be leveling, weaponry, magic, combos, (not DMC "counting" based but rather a flowing chain of moves to better effect), at least 4 characters (Cornell was known, as were Reinhardt and I think Carrie. The other was "something/somebody" else to where they could shapeshift or modify somehow to be a speed type, power type, ranged type, etc).

-Big 3D town to interact with where the game took place outside of the obvious surrounding battle locales and one would assume Drac's castle. All indications pointed towards having much story to tell, interactions to have, etc. If the game would've gotten less than an M rating it would only be if they were "creative" with masking the more explicit content not unlike in some cases of film.

There was more but I just can't remember. So then, SOMETHING happened to throw Iga and company completely off this track....with traces of the roster appearing in the N64 follow up and perhaps the hardcore Sunlight notions came to find a home in the Boktai games that came a bit later. I just wish I was a fly on the wall, one fluent in Japanese at that, when this whole thing shifted in the direction that it did and the franchise went in this direction. Had it gones the way it was looking at that point it would have been a heavily Adventure/Puzzle leaning, heavy action, substantial RPG Hybrid thingie with a Euro/Goth "R" rating if it were a movie. Far different than the current form...even than the other current form of a Fighter!

I have nothing to add, but I will provide you with the comfort of knowing that I know exactly what you're talking about. I remember reading the interview in an old Gamepro, and I remember that picture. I remember the interviewee said something about being able to turn into a vampire if bitten by one. It seemed to be incredibly ambitious, but I guess it was not meant to be.

 

[Teknoman]

There's a lot of hate for the PS2 games now. It's kind of funny that a while back it was the N64 games that were getting put down. Iga even apologized the N64 games were ever made as a result of the backlash and took the series in a different direction for 3D. So far he hasn't been able to bring the series to 3D successfully either though. To find out why, ask yourself what made Symphony of the Night - the most critically and commercially successful entry for the series - work.

Story - Alucard was re-introduced as a badass. While the story was delivered cheesily, the premise was deep - Save mankind by kicking the ass of the most evil person on the planet, who just happens to be your dad.

Gameplay - Despite all of the options, the gameplay was very simple. One button attacked, one button used magic, and one button jumped.

Variety - Once the basic gameplay was established, weapon and magic customization opened up options to provide a level of depth for players who wanted to tinker with their character.

Level Design - The satisfaction of leveling up your character would not have been possible if it weren't for the way that items slowly became attainable for you by reaching new areas as the game progressed.

Obviously, they have tried most of these in 3D, but it has not worked, so we're back to square one. They need to back to the drawing board and look at what works and what doesn't. Here are some of my ideas.

Story - I don't really think story has been the problem for the PS2 games, I just think they could flow a little better. Not a whole lot needs to be done here. Story is by far the biggest asset Igarashi brings to the series.

Gameplay - Go back to the basics and do more with less. I say make a Zelda clone but instead of a sword, you have a whip. The point is have very simple controls, just like SoTN and the 2D games. Have one button for your whip, one for your sub weapon, one button for magic and one button to jump. One shoulder button should also be used to lock-on and block.
Once this basic gameplay mechanic has been established, other elements can be added on like combos. Like Zelda, pointing your control stick in different directions could cause different effects (ex. while locked onto an enemy pull back on the control stick while swinging your whip to throw the enemy in the air. From there, you can attack him in the air and throw him to the ground. Once on the ground you can then use holy water to finish them off.)

The point is, your whip should be your primary weapon and they should focus on keeping it simple. Imagine if an enemy gets too close, you let go the lock-on button and mash and hold the attack button. This opens up a new combo sequence and you grab onto the enemy. Once you grab them you can then beat them with the butt of your whip, your cross, daggers or holy water.

Your whip could also be used to take down bigger enemies or flying enemies. Imagine if your fighting a boss. You lock onto his face and once you attack him enough, be bends over to rub the blood off of his eyes exposing the horns on top of his head. You then lock onto the horns with your whip. Once your whip is attached, you pull back on the controller and pull him to the ground. From there you are automatically put on top of him and have to tap the attack button repeatedly to finally kill the beast. That's one example, perhaps you would pull his feet out from under him, or his hand into a meat grinder instead. The point is to keep the gameplay simple.

Variety - The idea of leveling up could be collecting materials (herbs/chemicals/metals/money) that you could then take to a blacksmith/alchemist/shop and fuse the items to your whip/armor to make it more powerful. Some items should come from fallen enemies (ex. all enemies drop herbs/meat which will heal you. They also drop daggers which you throw for long distance attacks. However, a fire/ice enemy will occasionally drop fire/ice essence which can be fused to your dagger to cause more damage to certain enemies.) and bigger items should be found throughout the levels.

Level Design - The jump button is there for a reason - use it. Your whip can also attach onto things - use it as well. Think Tomb Raider, Prince of Persia or Bionic Commando for platforming/swinging. Your whip can be used to pull switches and solve other puzzles as well as platforming. Items like bigger bags for carrying more holy water or daggers should be hidden throughout the stage. Power-Ups like double jump boots should be received once you beat a boss.

I'd say spot on. If only IGA and his crew could catch a glimpse of this.

 

[KevinCow]

Why do people seem to think Castlevania couldn't work in 3D? It's not like it does anything that's never been done successfully in 3D. The whip and combat in general could easily work in 3D, various sub-items could easily work in 3D, platforming works fine in 3D. The only real issue is that 3D level design is much harder than 2D level design.

 

[SantaC]

This is what I posted a few months ago.


When you hear about 3D Castlevania, you often hear negative things. It's often referred to as failure compared to the 2D ones; like it cannot match the mood and atmosphere of the best 2D iterations. I was also on the hate train a couple of years ago, but having played all of them, and looking back at the games, I am willing to admit some of the hate is unjustified.

Now I think some of the problem is that Konami unreleased an unfinished product in Castlevania 64. The game that back in the day was hyped to follow Mario and Zelda intro the glorious 3D world of gaming. Some parts of Castlevania 64 are very good and works well in 3D. The problem is the bad camera, horrible framerate which kills some of the experience.

Konami saw their mistake pretty quickly and released a "fix" in Castlevania Legacy of Darkness. It has better camera, framerate, new paths and more to the storyline. This is where I think Konami did wrong. The game is much better, but gamers just don't forget the first iteration. They should have waited and simply released Legacy of Darkness.

Castlevania 64 - Released in 1999

As already mentioned; CV64 is the first 3D castlevania in the series. It suffer in a few key areas, however the level design is actually very goo. I'll never forget that crazy garden level. It also has some clever gameplay ideas, like carrying that nitroglycerin without getting hit or jumping. Traditionally Castlevania has great music, and this is no different. It really has an amazing OST.

Castlevania LoD - Released in 1999

As I also said; LoD is what CV64 should be. It's a fix and the complete game. It adds extras to CV64.

Castlevania Resurrection - Cancelled in 2000

Wait, didn't I say there was only four 3D castlevania (console) games? Yes I did. There was one planned and worked on for Dreamcast, but it was cancelled.

Castlevania Lament of Innocence - Released in 2003


After a 4 year hiatus, Konami decide to make another effort to put Castlevania in 3D, now for Playstation 2.

Lament of Innocence is actually the first game in the series chronologically. Loi is a decent game, but it suffers a lot in some areas. As an example, the level design is very repetive. Many rooms are often copied and pasted. It also has an average camera, sometimes even horrible. It's a pretty good effort but it falls short to Castlevania Legacy of Darkness imo.

Castlevania Curse of Darkness - Released in 2005

Two years later, Konami is at it again. Curse of Darkness adds more depth than Loi does. It has a more advanced battle system and really tries to be like Metroidvania in 3D. I really think this is a good game. It's even one of my favorite PS2 games. It boosts one of the best soundtracks ever made, and very good bossfights.

It does not suffer from camera problems like Loi does, and it is not as bad in the level design area. However, the copy and paste job is still there. I also noticed that the loading is downright horrible; worse than it should be even.

As a whole though, this is a game that you can enjoy. It's the best 3D castlevania game.

I would rank the four CV 3D games in following order:

CoD > LoD > Loi > 64


All in all, the Castlevania 3D games are worth playing if you are a Castlevania fan. There is no need to avoid them just because they're not in 2D. Yes, the best 2D iterations are superior, but I would also say that the worst 2D games in the series are worse then the 3D CVs.

They might not be like Zelda OoT, Metroid Prime or Mario 64, but you will most likely find enjoyment out of LoD and CoD.

 

[DonDepre]

Why do people seem to think Castlevania couldn't work in 3D? It's not like it does anything that's never been done successfully in 3D. The whip and combat in general could easily work in 3D, various sub-items could easily work in 3D, platforming works fine in 3D. The only real issue is that 3D level design is much harder than 2D level design.

That's the question. I can't remember too many 3D non-linear level designs that they're real good. You can see it in Bionic Commando. If you see the 2D ones, they're very non-linear (ok, not at the level of a RPG-like Castlevania, but with a lot of different approachs) and, the trailers that we saw about the 3D one seems much more linear.

If they want a real 3D Castlevania, they'll have to go for linear, but making a real good game. Something like DMC o GoW, but with trackback & farming capacity (not levels system) and action-RPG components.

 

[DonDepre]

Wow... N64 Castlevania seems real ugly, compared with Zelda OO, MGS or Silent Hill (released the same year)

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I'd say spot on. If only IGA and his crew could catch a glimpse of this.

It takes time and money. Konami needs to invest more in the franchise. If Capcom and Eidos can bring back Street Fighter and Tomb Raider, then why can't Konami do the same for Castlevania? They have the resources, they just need to use them.

 

[NeonZ]

I remember the interviewee said something about being able to turn into a vampire if bitten by one. It seemed to be incredibly ambitious, but I guess it was not meant to be.

That was in the final game, though it ended up quite pointless. The main weapon became unusable, the skin slightly blue and the player would get a gameover if he stayed like that too much time (with a quick animation showing the character "awakening" or something before the screen faded out).

 

[Teknoman]

It takes time and money. Konami needs to invest more in the franchise. If Capcom and Eidos can bring back Street Fighter and Tomb Raider, then why can't Konami do the same for Castlevania? They have the resources, they just need to use them.

Thats for sure. Maybe they will after the tons of cash MGS4 brought in?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Konami was on the right track with the N64 games. After that, it's all been boring grind 'n fill out the map gameplay. Castlevania's not about the combat so much as it is about nice 'n tricky levels and lots of timing. They need to bring it back to the slower and more deliberate pace of the earlier games.

 

[D.Lo]

As a whole though, this is a game that you can enjoy. It's [Curse of Darkness] the best 3D castlevania game.

...

I would rank the four CV 3D games in following order:

CoD > LoD > Loi > 64

Are you kidding me? COD is a disgrace to the series, and easily the worst 3D Castlevania. Pathetic story that wastes (in some ways even wrecks) CVIII's story, generic S&M characters, incredibly generic enemies, possibly the worst level design of any 3D game outside of budget shovelware (empty hallways where you just hold forward for two whole minutes? Towers full of the same enemies floor after floor with nothing at the top?).

It even dumbed down LoI's promising combo system, added stupid ugly pokemans, and had the most pathetic GBA shoevelware level key puzzles it was insulting. On top of all that it was ugly as sin, with blurry textures, constant pea-soup fog EVERYWHERE, simple geometry, crappy brown and grey colour palettes with only garish neon lighting from a variety of coloured fire to break it up, and clunky 32-bit level animation. The ONLY good things about it were a half-decent soundtrack and decent voice acting.

For all their flaws, the other three 3D Castlevanias are all head and shoulders about the abomination that is Curse of Darkness, which is right down there with Harmony of Dissonance as part of Igarashi's efforts to destroy a classic franchise.

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

the only one answer, in my opinion, is that Iga and his team kinda suck at 3D games. Even if we were generous and save something from LOI, COD (which WAS a bad game, no matter how you want to put it) or 64, there's still a lot missing, and some stuff is simply horrid and definitely shows how inexperienced they are at working with polygons (retarded camera, sucky framerate, repetitive rooms, absolutely horrendous level design, tragic controls)


it really needs a revolution to wipe out all the justified prejudice from us fans

 

[Teknoman]

Are you kidding me? COD is a disgrace to the series, and easily the worst 3D Castlevania. Pathetic story that wastes (in some ways even wrecks) CVIII's story, generic S&M characters, incredibly generic enemies, possibly the worst level design of any 3D game outside of budget shovelware (empty hallways where you just hold forward for two whole minutes? Towers full of the same enemies floor after floor with nothing at the top?).

It even dumbed down LoI's promising combo system, added stupid ugly pokemans, and had the most pathetic GBA shoevelware level key puzzles it was insulting. On top of all that it was ugly as sin, with blurry textures, constant pea-soup fog EVERYWHERE, simple geometry, crappy brown and grey colour palettes with only garish neon lighting from a variety of coloured fire to break it up, and clunky 32-bit level animation. The ONLY good things about it were a half-decent soundtrack and decent voice acting.

For all their flaws, the other three 3D Castlevanias are all head and shoulders about the abomination that is Curse of Darkness, which is right down there with Harmony of Dissonance as part of Igarashi's efforts to destroy a classic franchise.

Hey watch it!



The soundtrack was all the way decent.

 

[ElectricThunder]

charlesthefirst: You rock...SO MUCH. Seriously, for YEARS this has been dogging me in the back of my head and I'd been hoping that the existence of GAF would bring me some closure on it.

NeonZ: Yeah the "vampirism" made it in similar to how the "daylight" made it in---totally different and just a quick Antidote and you are done.

Other obvious thing they could've done with even the "horrible" (I did love CV64 but my expectations were blown like mad as one can tell what charles and I were led to think) game: Old Vampire Hunter with the giant cross and holy water should've had a much more prominent role and been playable dammit. How in the hell has NO CV game since thought to have his weapon available at the very least----that thing was badass looking. They need to dump him into Judgment somehow....

One thing CV64 beats most games for "feel" in though----the music for the ending credits. Absolutely perfect and stirring.

That might as well be the new trick to shoot for in CV...more "feel" than "flash".