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[Rocket Punch]

Memnoch the Devil

 

[RiZ III]

This is the first time I've ever heard anything like this. If your unable to keep your fast, then your unable to keep your fast and you just break it. Its between you and God. Im assuming Sanandadj is a small city. A 'hick' city. But I could be wrong I guess.

Its true, 'radical' muslims don't like most other people. Truth is, these people aren't 'radical' muslims, theyre just cultural hicks. Theyre beliefs and actions come from the culture not religion. Like in Sudan you have girls getting 'circumcised'. Sudan is a Muslim country for the most part I believe. This practice isn't derived from Islam though. Female circumcision isn't carried out in any other Muslim country and is infact prohibited. Most of the Muslim world lives in either an opressive country or an underdeveloped one. Its no suprise the people are uneducated hicks. But take it from me who has read the Quran multiple times in a language I understand* and disregard all other sources of Islam that the Islam you have come to know through these peoples action is NOT Islam. It is culture, it is ignorance, it is hatred.

*In most if not all non arabic speaking muslim countries, kids are taught to read the Quran in Arabic at a very young age. They finish reading the Quran, but they read it in Arabic, a language which they don't understand. So, the only real place they get knowledge of their religion is their parents and community. Real Islam, which is contained in the Quran, they never get. That is why I say these people base their actions on culture, not religion. So it is like a whole society of people who have never really truly read the Quran. Its just culture combined with their little knowledge of Islam.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I have my own personal follower. How quaint.

So if this is the case why haven't other Shi'a or Sunni groups been heard from?

How many people have even heard this story? Really... Iran Press News! That's big time there!

Yes, Catholics did make themselves vocal when the sexual abuse by Catholics priests occurred in the US. Should I now not expect the same of Shi'a or Sunni groups (depends which the boy was)?

The local groups made their voices known. It's probably tougher to ask for much more within Iran. Alternative Media can only go so far.

The only criticism you'll probably find is from a few scattered Western Muslim groups. Most of the groups in the Arab world have more pressing issues to worry about than paying attention to this story, which pales in comparison to most of the issues facing the Middle East today.

That only related groups should criticize each other. I believe that is what you are inferring am I right?

No. Any group is free to criticize each other. What I am saying is that Catholics criticiziing Catholics holds more weight with other Catholics. It's much easier to dismiss criticism when it comes from a faction outside of your own. After all, why would Protestants listen to criticism from the Pope on their values.

So calling for worldwide Muslim outrage in this case might be useless. They just might dismiss it as something coming from the "other".

Your reporters on staff are Muslim statement is pretty null and void when you consider there must have been Catholics reporting on Catholics in the US scandal. One shouldn't assume that is a sign of outrage rather than one's job of reporting the story at hand.

Western Journalistic Values are not applied across the whole world. The U.S press is 'free', the Iranian press is not. Catholics can report on Catholics with impunity, Muslims in Iran do not have the same freedom.

Just by operating, the Iran Free Press is projecting 'outrage' at the government. Really, you think the state-sponsored papers would print a story like this? Of course not. By doing their job and reporting a story that most definitely would be blocked by the state, they are registering their outrage with the state. They are saying, "Hey look! This is what's going on here, why don't you say something about it?!?!?!!??!"

Furthermore, they always had the choice of not reporting the story. It's not like it would be the first time this happened. Also, you fail to analyze the color which is used to report the story. If they just wanted to do a cut and dry job on reporting this event, they would not mention the villagers storming the burial ground forcing the delay of the burial. They would have just stuck with the first paragraph, and then some quotes from people who were favorable towards the move.

You missed that last line:

According to informed sources, supervisors have instructed that the burial take place in the presence of his closest relatives, surveyed by security forces.

If I am correct in my understanding of this, there seems to be some officials, and security forces. So was the local outrage for naught?

You asked for outrage. I mentioned the people storming the burial. What does the fact that there are officials and security forces overlooking the second attempt at burying the kid have to do with the fact that the villagers voiced their outrage loud and clear by storming the grounds during the first attempt.

You must have assumed incorrectly when you read my posts, as I was referring to the Muslim community worldwide.

Now, if you wanted international outrage by a large majority of Muslims you should have said so. If that was the case, then maybe what would have helped is if the story was heard by a large majority of Muslims. Another thing which would help is if there were more Muslim leaders who appealed to moderate Muslims. It's tough to organize protests when you have no mouth to speak with. Would it be nice if an organization like Al Jazeera picked this up? Yes. However, I'm sure it would be hard for them to get this story without the state blocking them at every corner.

 

[Chittagong]

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=1776

SAUDI ARABIA - INDIA

Ten months in jail and 300 lashes for Christian prisoner O'Connor

Indian Christian in prison for seven months charged with evangelisation sentenced only for “selling alcohol”. Indian Christian activist writes to Saudi monarch asking for his compatriot’s release.

Riyadh (AsiaNews) – On October 20, a Saudi court in Deerah near Riyadh sentenced Brian Savio O’Connor, a Indian Christian resident in Saudi Arabia, to ten months in prison and 300 lashes for selling “alcoholic beverages”, this according to Middle East Concern (MEC), an organisation dedicated to the fate of Christians in the Middle East that has been monitoring the case of the Protestant man from the south-eastern Indian state of Karnataka.

Mr O’Connor has been incarcerated in Olaya prison since March 25 after the Muttawa, the Saudi religious police, abducted him from home and tortured for 24 hours in a mosque.

He was later charged with preaching Christianity, selling alcohol, drug use and possession of pornographic videos. He has always denied the charges, but has acknowledged leading Bible studies in his home for expatriate Christians after the authorities published information in the local press whereby non-Muslims could practice their religion at home. In practice, religious freedom does not exist in the country except for Muslims and any religious activity outside Islam is considered a felony.

In his October 20 court hearing, the judges found him guilty of selling alcohol but did not mention any of the other charges: drug use, evangelisation and, after September 15, possession of pornographic videos.

After reading the sentence, the court asked Mr O’Connor if he accepted this decision. He declined thus appealing the decision. He was warned that under Saudi law the higher court would most likely increase the sentence if it, too, found him guilty.

During the hearing Brian asked why the religious police who arrested him were not present as had been announced at the previous hearing. He was told that they had given their statement at a private hearing.

According to the MEC and Mr O’Connor’s family, the Muttawa did a good job at trumpeting up the alcohol charges. He was found in possession of banknotes—whose serial number the Muttawa had taken down—that had been used by an agent paid by the police to purchase the alcohol.

MEC sources claim that the O’Connor file has now moved to the “Departure” section of Olaya prison indicating that he might be expelled from the country after Ramadan.

Following the Court’s decision, Indian activist John Dayal wrote an appeal to Saudi King Fahd bin Abdulaziz al-Saud asking him to “give clemency to O’Connor” and urge the Saudi government to “release this Indian citizen who has already suffered much”.

“We are sure,” Mr Dayal said in the letter, that “we will not be disappointed in this appeal for mercy and justice in the name of universal brotherhood, human dignity and the friendly relations between the two countries, India and Saudi Arabia.”

John Dayal is the President of the All India Catholic Union (which represent India’s 16 million Catholics) and the Secretary General of the All India Christian Council, one of India’s major ecumenical Christian organisations. AsiaNews and other Catholic websites (see www.stranocristiano.it) have followed the O’Connor case and promoted an awareness campaign on his behalf.

In the letter to the Saudi king, Dayal states that O’Connor’s “employers have declared that the allegations against their employee are not valid” even though it is accepted that he is a practicing Christian.

According to Dayal, Mr O’Connor’s arrest, his experience in jail and now his sentence have caused “deep concern” amongst Indian Christians. “Brian,” Dayal wrote, “has no criminal record at home or abroad, and has been arrested, we feel, just for his religious convictions.” (LF)

I am unable to say anything. It would just be racist.

 

[Nerevar]

*In most if not all non arabic speaking muslim countries, kids are taught to read the Quran in Arabic at a very young age. They finish reading the Quran, but they read it in Arabic, a language which they don't understand. So, the only real place they get knowledge of their religion is their parents and community. Real Islam, which is contained in the Quran, they never get. That is why I say these people base their actions on culture, not religion. So it is like a whole society of people who have never really truly read the Quran. Its just culture combined with their little knowledge of Islam.

This isn't true. Arabic is still the language spoken by most people in Arabic countries (hence ... the name). The thing is, the Quran was written, what, 1400 years ago? The language has evolved and changed since then. It would be the equivalent of forcing modern Christians to read the Bible as it was written by Chaucer or Longeland - you would identify words and basic themes, but you wouldn't really understand all the nuances of the text. I think that makes it all the more difficult, because there is so much misunderstanding. For example - the fact that Muslim women cover their faces. This isn't actually the real interpretation. In the Quran, they are required to wear shawls, or in other words to cover their bare breasts. The problem is the word doesn't really equate to anything in modern Arabic and it is taken out of context.

 

[RiZ III]

I said NON-ARABIC speaking countries such as India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, so on.

 

[Particle Physicist]

:skips religious squabbling:

Someone explain this fast to me... you can't eat for a whole month?

just during daylight hours.

 

[rastex]

This isn't true. Arabic is still the language spoken by most people in Arabic countries (hence ... the name). The thing is, the Quran was written, what, 1400 years ago? The language has evolved and changed since then. It would be the equivalent of forcing modern Christians to read the Bible as it was written by Chaucer or Longeland - you would identify words and basic themes, but you wouldn't really understand all the nuances of the text. I think that makes it all the more difficult, because there is so much misunderstanding. For example - the fact that Muslim women cover their faces. This isn't actually the real interpretation. In the Quran, they are required to wear shawls, or in other words to cover their bare breasts. The problem is the word doesn't really equate to anything in modern Arabic and it is taken out of context.

I don't know about this one. Proper Arabic is an extremely formal language and like in all languages words die and are created, every word in proper Arabic follows a very strict construction stemming for a 3, 4 or in rare cases even more root word.

Can you give some more detailed information about shawls and covering, as in what the Quranic arabic is, how the meaning of the words have changed over time?



Bjork
Fasting, or Saum in Arabic is the act of not eating from sunrise until sunset. This can happen at any day during the year voluntarily, but during the Islamic month of Ramadan (Islamic calendar is lunar) it is obligated for every muslim that is capable to fast all days of the month. Capable meaning reached past a certain age, is in good health, and for women are not on their .. cycle, or if they're pregnant.

Now, fasting isn't just about not eating food, it also involves no drinking (water or otherwise), smoking and sexual intercourse. Personally, on top of those things I try extremely hard not to swear, get angry and just generally keep myself under control. Obviously I should do this anyway, but I try extra hard when I fast.

 

[RiZ III]

Believe it or not, Quran doesn't mention anything about shawls or women covering their heads.

---------From Free-Minds.org-------

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

In reality "Hijab" is an old Jewish tradition that infiltrated into the hadith books like many innovations that contaminated Islam through alleged Hadith and Sunna. These in reality, came from Jewish origin. Any student of the Jewish traditions or religious books will see that head cover for the Jewish woman is encouraged by the Rabbis and religious leaders. Religious Jewish women still cover their heads most of the time and specially in the synagogues, weddings, and religious festivities.

Christian women cover their heads in many religious occasions while the nuns cover their heads all the time. This religious practice of covering the head was established from traditions thousands of years before the Muslim scholars claimed the Hijab as a Muslim dress code.

The traditional Arabs, of all religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims used to wear "Hijab," not because of Islam, but because of tradition. In Saudi Arabia, up to this minute most of the men cover their head , not because of Islam but because of tradition. Thank God this tradition has not been counted as Islamic dress code yet.

North Africa is known for its Tribe (Tuareg) that have the Muslim men wearing "Hijab" instead of women. Here the tradition has the hijab in reverse. If wearing Hijab is the sign of the pious and righteous Muslim woman, Mother Teresa would have been the first woman to be counted.

In brief, hijab is a traditional dress and has nothing to do with Islam or religion. In certain areas of the world, men are the ones who wear the hijab while in others the women do.

 

[FightyF]

I'm no expert, but doesn't the Quran say that women can only have their hands and face uncovered?

 

[RiZ III]

no