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[TLZ]

All you had to do was emulate Styx, and build on that. Would've at least guaranteed a 70 rating, easily. You had the blueprint, right there, but you gave us this...thing.

 

[Neolombax]

I think by now even players understand how difficult it is to develop games. What we dont understand is how developers can look at an obviously bad game, and say ok we will ship it at usd60, lets see how this sticks. If it was priced accordingly, it wouldnt have garnered such a response.

 

[Clear]

Oy, just no. Don’t blame suits for this. There should have been team leads that were correctly evaluating and accounting for the lack of quality of the product.

If the producer says jump, you jump.

Deciding when a product is good enough to ship, in fact any and every milestone completion, is not the result of a democratic decision. You get told.

Publishing demands deadlines, because its all about business.

 

[93xfan]

I remember when this got announced I think like last year. The reception was the same as it is now. They should have dropped it then. Blame yourselves.

No one wants a Batman game where you're doing chores as Alfred

Don’t speak for everyone. I want a Batman game with a badass name attached to it where you patrol the halls of Wayne Manor, ready to take on any dust that may be getting out of hand. And since dust keeps accumulating, there’s endless replayability

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

Don’t speak for everyone. I want a Batman game with a badass name attached to it where you patrol the halls of Wayne Manor, ready to take on any dust that may be getting out of hand. And since dust keeps accumulating, there’s endless replayability

Better than what we saw at the playstation showcase so go for it

 

[cash_longfellow]

What must be soul crushing is that games are developed by hundreds of people.

And sometimes and environment artist, for example, may have done the best work of his career, but it was on the fucking Gollum game where every other people did a terrible job in their respective roles. So despite being an amazing job, the game still sucked and you'll have a 38 MC game in your resumé.

"Oh but find a good job at Ubisoft or whatever". But maybe you live in a small country with limited options.

But my empathy does not go to the company as a whole. They knew they had a stinker on their hands and decided to launch it at $60.

If you cant make a game of this scope, then dont make a game of this scope.

Would have been better to make a point and click adventure using the Deponia games engine then, in the LOTR world.

Stop with this shit…I’ve worked places with hundreds of people and the job was shit. I got the experience, added it to my resume and moved on. Never expected people to feel sorry for me. Stop it…this is how life works, stop acting like it’s only in the game industry.

 

[MisterBrimstone]

Developer's Copium: The thread

 

[StreetsofBeige]

If the producer says jump, you jump.

Deciding when a product is good enough to ship, in fact any and every milestone completion, is not the result of a democratic decision. You get told.

Publishing demands deadlines, because its all about business.

I get what youre saying, but similar to Redfall when a team has a budget and multiyear timeline expectation is the team does a good job. Cant blame the boss for everything. Now if it can be proven the boss is shit or the team doesn't have enough time and money where they were screwed from the start, then ya blame the company. But every worker should have enough responsibility as a grown adult to do a good job on their own without bosses babysitting them like 8 year olds.

I got deadlines at work like everyone else. Monthly and quarterly. If something bad happens, I cant get delays. You cant delay doing financials telling Wall Street "hey, can we get an extension?" You work OT till it's done. You dont blame the boss.

And if the marketing managers who launch new stuff from the ground up fuck up not getting it up and running with all the strategy, pricing, advertising and availability (our company launches most of our stuff in Q1 every year), it's not the VP of Marketing fucking up needing to babysit 18 marketing managers with a average age of 40 to get their asses in gear. It's the marketing manager not getting the job done over the course of 3 years since it takes a long time to get things to shelf. At our company, once you miss launching something in Q1, we typically just wait till next year. Seems like 95% of the time, things get done on time, it's launched well, and you dont get apology tweets when something is crap.

And it's not even digital. It involves the entire coordination of production, warehouising, trucking, packaging, shipping to and from overseas, setting pricing strategies etc... And somehow it still gets done.

 

[semiconscious]

Don’t speak for everyone. I want a Batman game with a badass name attached to it where you patrol the halls of Wayne Manor, ready to take on any dust that may be getting out of hand. And since dust keeps accumulating, there’s endless replayability

hell, i've always wanted a tomb raider game where you play as winston. something along the lines of a locked room mystery...

 

[SirTerry-T]

What a c@nt.

 

[Clear]

I get what youre saying, but similar to Redfall when a team has a budget and multiyear timeline expectation is the team does a good job. Cant blame the boss for everything. Now if it can be proven the boss is shit or the team doesn't have enough time and money where they were screwed from the start, then ya blame the company. But every worker should have enough responsibility as a grown adult to do a good job on their own without bosses babysitting them like 8 year olds.

What if the "boss" is the problem?

What if they start demanding changes to the content or schedule due to new corporate or marketing steering?

What if there are unforseen issues with staffing and/or scheduling due to external factors or simply that the ideas that looked great on paper simply aren't much fun? You can identify the problem, but if you aren't given the time and extra resources to recover from this shortfall you're still screwed.

Creative staff tend not to have the sort of swing necessary to make these calls, so it always falls to the producers because ultimately they are the ones with the financial responsibility.

Hell, even Kojima who had the one of the biggest dicks to swing in terms of clout ultimately fell foul of the money, and MGSV got pushed out the door missing planned content.

I got deadlines at work like everyone else. Monthly and quarterly. If something bad happens, I cant get delays. You cant delay doing financials telling Wall Street "hey, can we get an extension?" You work OT till it's done. You dont blame the boss.

The amount of pressure to conform is circumstantial. If a huge amount of money is riding on a particular project -I mean in terms of sunken cost in production plus planned marketing spend- your team might find themselves with even less wiggle room as the production staff's marching orders are to deliver come hell or high water.

Why do you think most projects end in life-destroying crunches and death marches? Is it because everyone working is lazy, lacking in commitment or unable to manage their own time ? Or is it because as devs are fond of telling Twitter, it's hard making art and entertainment - and sometimes despite everyone's best efforts over a period of years labour on things inevitably run awry.

What they tend not to mention is that *had they been given permission by management* they'd have happily worked until everything was done right. Because noone wants to waste years of their career working on flops or misfires!

Because of course publicly throwing your bosses under the bus isn't smart!

And if the marketing managers who launch new stuff from the ground up fuck up not getting it up and running with all the strategy, pricing, advertising and availability (our company launches most of our stuff in Q1 every year), it's not the VP of Marketing fucking up needing to babysit 18 marketing managers with a average age of 40 to get their asses in gear. It's the marketing manager not getting the job done over the course of 3 years since it takes a long time to get things to shelf. At our company, once you miss launching something in Q1, we typically just wait till next year. Seems like 95% of the time, things get done on time, it's launched well, and you dont get apology tweets when something is crap.

And it's not even digital. It involves the entire coordination of production, warehouising, trucking, packaging, shipping to and from overseas, setting pricing strategies etc... And somehow it still gets done.

Making a big game is incredibly difficult, far more so than even a blockbuster movie because there's no way to just "fix things in the edit". Every part is connected so when you change one thing you tend to feel the impact elsewhere. This happens both mechanically (i.e. in terms of code function) and creatively (content and editorial) constantly over the course of development. Corrective action is being taken constantly, but its often not accounted for in scheduling because by definition this is unplanned work.... and so things start to slide and... voila its crunch time before Alpha, then Beta, then Gold.

So its always a battle with time, and here's the real issue... who get's to say whether the team eventually really did make it across the finish-line ? Because ultimately nothing in code is ever really "finished", its just abandoned. And games being art/entertainment there's a lot of room for subjectivity anyway. Maybe the producer feels ok with KS-ing a shitload of non-critical bugs? Maybe they think that performance is "good enough". Maybe they are crossing their fingers and hoping that it'll all work out by the time the day#1 patch gets dropped, because they absolutely cannot tell their bosses that the product they have been granted ownership off isn't going to be ready on time.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I'm curious, if this were a $30 game then would the backlash be as strong?

$60 - $30 = $30. $30/$60 = 1/2. I bet the backlash would be about half as strong.

 

[Nickolaidas]

This is one of those games you get for free and you still feel ripped off.

 

[MasterDerico]

Wait people buy the product, then apologize.
Forgive me, but your excuses will make things worse.

It's not the first time this has happened, and the reputation of the team/company is tarnished. I hope this scoundrel practice stops

This is called bad faith.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

What they tend not to mention is that *had they been given permission by management* they'd have happily worked until everything was done right. Because noone wants to waste years of their career working on flops or misfires!

I’m sure just giving a blank check to anyone and telling them to “take their time” is very efficient way of going out of business.
Why are we pretending games dev should be the only thing without budgets, deadlines, planning? It’s a job.

 

[Banjo64]

Only media industry where the creators snivel and expect sympathy.

Imagine an author or movie director coming out with an apology letter like this

 

[Darkmakaimura]

 

[Roni]

If the producer says jump, you jump.

Deciding when a product is good enough to ship, in fact any and every milestone completion, is not the result of a democratic decision. You get told.

Publishing demands deadlines, because its all about business.

Perhaps we should do something about that before we waste all of our money on pointless projects because hierarchy?

 

[Ronin_7]

I think by now even players understand how difficult it is to develop games. What we dont understand is how developers can look at an obviously bad game, and say ok we will ship it at usd60, lets see how this sticks. If it was priced accordingly, it wouldnt have garnered such a response.

It's already hard enough to develop software, go through messy Data bases that older Devs fucked up completely and now you gotta fix, develop new algorithms and make everything as fast as possible and optimized.

Can't imagine making shit move in a screen coding in C++ & Python and based on my experience using loops in Python is also a no which further complicate things.

Yeah making games must be hard AF.

 

[Flutta]

I mean you can test it all you want BUT a turd is a turd and they knew about it but chose to still released it in it’s turd state hoping we would forgive them for their turdy game.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Are these developers from the generation where the little league losers in sports also were the winners?

 

[Hugare]

Stop with this shit…I’ve worked places with hundreds of people and the job was shit. I got the experience, added it to my resume and moved on. Never expected people to feel sorry for me. Stop it…this is how life works, stop acting like it’s only in the game industry.

Were you working in companies that made products directly influenced by your work?

Were you responsible for the design of said products?

If not, then shush 'cause you're talking shit

I've worked in Finance at IBM. Do you think that my work influenced how satisfied the clients were with the products?

Try to see how your comparison is dumb

 

[Clear]

I’m sure just giving a blank check to anyone and telling them to “take their time” is very efficient way of going out of business.
Why are we pretending games dev should be the only thing without budgets, deadlines, planning? It’s a job.

My point is that its not the developer who's setting the budgets, the deadlines, and overseeing the execution of the schedule. Its the publishing apparatus.

Its their failure, it absolutely has to be.

Look at it this way; if the team is incompetent or dysfunctional shouldn't those issues be apparent from the start of production? Games take several years to make with progress monitored over the entire duration with regular milestone builds and reviews. The final stages of completion invariably passing through key deliverable check-points like Alpha, Beta, and Gold Master to certify that everything is in order. Management practices like AGILE are employed so as there's always a "current" build to evaluate, vertical slices are prepared as part of the green-lighting process so there's an undeniable shared vision that everyone is working towards, etc.

Major problems rarely come out of nowhere! So unless those in charge are asleep at the wheel there should be no nasty surprises and the investment in the project is adequately safeguarded.

Perhaps we should do something about that before we waste all of our money on pointless projects because hierarchy?

Hierarchy is essential on complex, scale-collaborative undertakings like making a game.

What the problem is, is that a lot of the time the hierarchy is incompetent. And nothing is going to change that while teams are the ones who inevitably take the hit for failure, irrespective of whether they deserve the blame or not.

Its very rare, arguably never, that a project is completely unsalvageable given the time to make it right. Noone doubts the publisher's ability to delay or cancel prior to release, yet when a game come's out in a terrible state its suddenly the developer's fault?

Make no mistake, they knew exactly what they were selling to you. Somewhere, a determination was made that the piece of shit that you paid $70 for was "good enough", even as the people making it were acutely aware of its actual state.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Were you working in companies that made products directly influenced by your work?

Were you responsible for the design of said products?

If not, then shush 'cause you're talking shit

I've worked in Finance at IBM. Do you think that my work influenced how satisfied the clients were with the products?

Try to see how your comparison is dumb

Actually yes, and yes to your first two questions.
And I can’t see how my comparison is dumb, because it’s close to exactly the same thing. So move along trying to call people out when you don’t know the answers to the questions you are asking first.

 

[Humdinger]

There is an element in gaming/gamers that seems to relish the "failures." They love to jump on the hate train. I have a part of myself like that, too. After all, why am I reading stories about a game I have no intention of ever playing? Simply because a silly little part of me enjoys reading bad reviews of poorly constructed games. There is something enjoyable about hurling mud at something because it is substandard.

The saner response would probably be to just recognize, "Ok, I won't be playing that game," and move on to something else. But we seem to love to dogpile on dogshit.

 

[AlteredForms]

There is an element in gaming/gamers that seems to relish the "failures." They love to jump on the hate train.

That isn't exclusive to gamers man. People love to see somebody crash and burn, haven't you heard of the "cancelling" movement?

 

[Roni]

My point is that its not the developer who's setting the budgets, the deadlines, and overseeing the execution of the schedule. Its the publishing apparatus.

Its their failure, it absolutely has to be.

Look at it this way; if the team is incompetent or dysfunctional shouldn't those issues be apparent from the start of production? Games take several years to make with progress monitored over the entire duration with regular milestone builds and reviews. The final stages of completion invariably passing through key deliverable check-points like Alpha, Beta, and Gold Master to certify that everything is in order. Management practices like AGILE are employed so as there's always a "current" build to evaluate, vertical slices are prepared as part of the green-lighting process so there's an undeniable shared vision that everyone is working towards, etc.

Major problems rarely come out of nowhere! So unless those in charge are asleep at the wheel there should be no nasty surprises and the investment in the project is adequately safeguarded.



Hierarchy is essential on complex, scale-collaborative undertakings like making a game.

What the problem is, is that a lot of the time the hierarchy is incompetent. And nothing is going to change that while teams are the ones who inevitably take the hit for failure, irrespective of whether they deserve the blame or not.

Its very rare, arguably never, that a project is completely unsalvageable given the time to make it right. Noone doubts the publisher's ability to delay or cancel prior to release, yet when a game come's out in a terrible state its suddenly the developer's fault?

Make no mistake, they knew exactly what they were selling to you. Somewhere, a determination was made that the piece of shit that you paid $70 for was "good enough", even as the people making it were acutely aware of its actual state.

Hierarchy is only essential if there's no clear and verified process to the work being done. Sadly that's usually normal, but doesn't make it essential. Valve is notorious for developing the best games out there and it's one of the flatest structures in the game industry.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

 

[StreetsofBeige]

There is an element in gaming/gamers that seems to relish the "failures." They love to jump on the hate train. I have a part of myself like that, too. After all, why am I reading stories about a game I have no intention of ever playing? Simply because a silly little part of me enjoys reading bad reviews of poorly constructed games. There is something enjoyable about hurling mud at something because it is substandard.

The saner response would probably be to just recognize, "Ok, I won't be playing that game," and move on to something else. But we seem to love to dogpile on dogshit.

True. I like reading trainwrecks too.

But I think you typically see this for products that involves a lot of budget, highly paid people, marketing and hype and it's not something you get a refund for.

Movies, video games, cars, going to a sporting event etc.... are things people love ragging on.

These types of industries do a shit load of marketing in your face to sell you something (bullshots included), highly paid people, and half the time it's shit. And unless you can pull it off or go through the hassle, you arent getting your money back.

At least if you buy a shitty bag of cookies or a TV that doesn't work you can bring it back and get your money back. With media and entertainment, someone buying it is likely stuck with it. Or people on forums read up on a shit reviewed product and know that there's people out there buying it and getting burned. So even though they didn't buy it themselves, it's like telling anyone watching/reading the forum warning others whether its trolling for fun or as a service to others.

 

[aries_71]

I feel bad for the team.

 

[Kaleinc]

All you had to do was emulate Styx, and build on that. Would've at least guaranteed a 70 rating, easily. You had the blueprint, right there, but you gave us this...thing.

Styx was lame cheap shite.

Refunds and paying damages is the only apology needed.

 

[Arsic]

I get that dev wanting to make a fun game for kids. That’s an arguably harder game type to make and do well with. A karate game for kids sounds like a good idea. It bombing is what it is but they had a clear vision and goal for it.

Gollum has no vision. No goal. No reason to exist. No one wanted this game. No one. They deserve all the bad reviews and word of mouth. You wanted $ for no reason at all. Fuck off.

 

[AlteredForms]

Styx was lame cheap shite.

Refunds and paying damages is the only apology needed.

Styx was said to be pretty decent man, though I can't fully comment because I didn't play the series. Gives off vibes like Sly Cooper, though not as good mind you. I remember the game Of Orcs and Men from which the character originally came from and it was enjoyable on the whole.

 

[ZVWQP-9B8TM-VH9CT]

There are other jobs out there dude if your job is hard.
Quit!

 

[captainpat]

I really wish that people would direct their rage at the publishers instead of the developers. At the end of the the day the publishers have the final say on when and what state the game is released. Buggy releases could end today if publishers wanted it to.

 

[Humdinger]

That isn't exclusive to gamers man. People love to see somebody crash and burn, haven't you heard of the "cancelling" movement?

True. I didn't say it was exclusive to gamers. It's a human thing. People love pointing at failure and laughing at how bad it is.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I appreciate it when peope apologize if said apology is genuine. That can't be said for this situation.

I gotta call them out for being scammers. As is how I look at any dev that releases a game that is this bad. To me, that is something they do simply to try and recoup some of the money they spent making it from hapless ignorant gamers. There is no way these devs don't know the state their games are in or if the game is even fun to play. No way at all. So why even release it?

 

[AlteredForms]

True. I didn't say it was exclusive to gamers. It's a human thing. People love pointing at failure and laughing at how bad it is.

 

[sachos]

You mean those?

Thats from a 2020 preview story though, its not a review. They (GamesRadar+) gave them a 2/5 https://www.gamesradar.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-gollum-review/

 

[Marvel14]

There is a concept in organisational behaviour studies about escalating commitment - project should have been scrapped, but people involved put so much energy and effort into it they cannot bring themselves to ax it. This is what happened here.

It's called the sunk cost fallacy in economics.

 

[Majukun]

i feel for the team, but it's part of the game, just as you will feel the love and be rewarded for a good product, you must also be ready to accept the shame of a bad one.

i'm sure that they were dealt a bad hand and the fault is on management and higher ups

 

[KungFucius]

What must be soul crushing is that games are developed by hundreds of people.

And sometimes and environment artist, for example, may have done the best work of his career, but it was on the fucking Gollum game where every other people did a terrible job in their respective roles. So despite being an amazing job, the game still sucked and you'll have a 38 MC game in your resumé.

"Oh but find a good job at Ubisoft or whatever". But maybe you live in a small country with limited options.

But my empathy does not go to the company as a whole. They knew they had a stinker on their hands and decided to launch it at $60.

If you cant make a game of this scope, then dont make a game of this scope.

Would have been better to make a point and click adventure using the Deponia games engine then, in the LOTR world.

I'm not sure anyone did a bad job outside of the person who decided a Gollum game makes sense. It is such a limiting concept that leads to nothing fun at all. It should have been cancelled.

 

[Allandor]

This should really have been a point & click adventure. Than their team might have made something out if the storyline. But not this way.
I don't blame them for putting out a bad game (this can happen) but putting out a broken game and even insert a game breaking bug with the first patch ...