"Eight frames" is so misleading. It's not 8 more frames than any other Street Fighter game.
-A Gaming reacts to 8 frame of input lags
- Thread starter Tripon
- Start date
"Eight frames" is so misleading. It's not 8 more frames than any other Street Fighter game.
It's generally lower with Vsync too, changing in the Nvidia global settings ''pre-rendered frames'' to ''1'' extremely reduces input lag in most if not all games without causing performance loss even on older cards.
PS4 vsync reminds me of Hotline Miami without changing pre-rendered frames to ''1'' on pc if you play with vsync on, it was unplayable for me.
Is this vsync only or does it also reduce lag for vsync off?
This is only active with Vsync on.
With Vsync off it does nothing and most people still need Vsync as long as Nvidia does not release their new drivers with (basically) tripple buffering in all games over 60fps (Fast Sync, more in this thread).
Basically no tearing with very very low input lag (almost non), perfect for games like SF V.
I think I'd still take the tearing for competitive games, but that's amazing for almost everything else.
The Spoony Hou
Member
8 frames is not misleading. It's still 8 frames of lag.
No, I didn't. Having watched the video now... My reaction is the same.
Fucking pieces of shit can't program worth crap.
SturokBGD
Member
Slow down, sir. You're going to give yourself skin failure!
Jup, games like CS GO or Rocket League do not tear like crazy (actually RL wasn't that good but after the unlocked frames update it works great and does not really tear).
Gsync and Freesync are cool but one is crazy expensive and the other does not work with Nvidia GPU's (thanks Nvidia) and still needs a new screen (I'm not even sure if there are TV's out that support it. Probably very costly).
Fast Sync won't need new screens/tv's and would work with existing games.
The Spoony Hou
Member
Not sure what you mean by skin failure, but you're right, I shouldn't get too worked up. It's not like I've bought the game or anything.
Then you know Ultra Street Fighter IV, specifically the 360 version a.k.a the tournament standard for the longest time, had a little more than 5 frames of input lag, right?
SFV has a little less than 3 more frames of input lag. You're losing your shit over less than 3 frames. If you're a competitive tournament player who thrives off hard reactions, then alright. If you're just a regular dude like most of us, then have you even noticed it up until now?
There is no difference until you disable v-sync on PC via .ini files (?) which reduces input lag by about 4f.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Didn't Harada do the same on TTT2 to make the arcade and online versions appear exactly the same? Doesn't make it less shitty though.
The Spoony Hou
Member
I haven't touched SFV, but the fact that it has more lag than SFIV is terrible. It could have been just one frame. It just showcases their sloppy programming and total disregard to hardcore gamers.
QuantumSquid
Member
Cool video but it didn't need background music.
so you're freaking out over a game you don't even play.
The Spoony Hou
Member
I do intend to play it, you know. And now I know it will be on PC.
And if I played the game I'd know how it handles myself, so the video wouldn't affect me as much.
It has nothing to do with programming, it's added input lag so when you play online, the game has a decent buffer to work with between receiving inputs and displaying the results.
It's a shitty way to make a netcode looks better than it is, but this isn't a new thing to competitive fighters, Tekken Tag 2 added a bit of lag to what was in Tekken 6 for the same reason, and even more lag was added to Tekken 7 too(arcade version at least). Unlike Capcom of course, Bamco have been clear about the reason why they've been adding input lag.
He hasn't been to any tournaments that I know of, but Kent4r0's Gief is really impressive: https://youtu.be/U5LU_1MpVj0
Or or, it could have been intentional for all the reasons already stated in the video posted. That you can think that when they have dudes like Woshige, a former pro and amazing Guilty Gear player, on staff as the Battle Director for the game is weird, dude. You really think a player like Woshige, who comes from a game like Guilty Gear, wouldn't have noticed this? A player like Combofiend wouldn't have noticed? That seems so unlikely to me.
Capcom has done themselves no favors by being silent on this. They should just out right say already whether or not the ~8 frames of input lag is an intentional design decision or not. Like, I'd gladly own up to it if I'm wrong. Just say something jeez. I hope you're reading this, Haunts.
The Spoony Hou
Member
Adding input lag to deal with online lag is a stupid decision, so it can't be that. There's a shitty way to play the game (with online lag), so you make it shitty for everyone playing the game, even offline? It's like having to sign in online to play offline games, you get the worst of both worlds.
If Capcom really cares about tournament play, they shouldn't add lag to offline play, as simple as that. But of course they know that, so it's shitty programming.
Oh, and the Tekken comparison is meaningless, since, to me, Tekken is just a party game.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Itabashi Zangief is still using him, although he isn't winning. Top 8 at a recent JP tourney.
There's also stupendous. The new WNF gief. But he lost really early at combobreaker.
Smart logic you have there.
How much lag do you think Tekken Ball has?
I'm so confused.
The Spoony Hou
Member
I don't know, hopefully a finite amount? Haven't played Tekken Ball since Tekken 3.
Different implementations of vsync cause different amounts of lag on pc.
PC having always 133ms with vsync is not true.
http://www.displaylag.com/reduce-input-lag-in-pc-games-the-definitive-guide/http://www.displaylag.com/reduce-input-lag-in-pc-games-the-definitive-guide/
edit: To be clearer, the above is for usfiv but it shows how different configurations have different amounts of lag, also tests were done with a 60hz monitor, from my understanding lag would be less with a higher refresh rate monitor.
~133ms means around 133ms, I'm not saying it's always 133. But to be clear, from the link I gave, 133ms was the shortest delay measured with 137 being the most common and 147ms being the longest. The link also list the system specs the tests were done on.
Also, SFV doesn't provide different implementation of vsync, those test were done with the default setting, if you want to change that(or even turn off vsync), it would have to be through .ini files.
Either way, the delay isn't due to hardware, it's there due to design decisions(as evident by frame data changes from SFIV to SFV), so PC and PS4 having about the same amount of lag isn't surprising. ie, playing the game without vsynce will screw-up how some moves were balance.
That still doesn't explain the 1f difference between legacy sticks and PS4 sticks.
Those numbers you mention are his camera measurements that he used to take the average for input lag of a single configuration, what i am talking about is that different configurations have different averages and that doesn't have to do with how sfv implements vsync but other factors like gpu maker, using winowed modes, using vsync from control panel instead of ingame, refresh rates and other stuff.
edit: it wasn't an average but the most frequent measurement, still my point doesn't change
LPN does well with Alex and Itabashi Zangief and Stupendous do well with Gief.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Isn't a big issue for people like snakeeyes that tournament standard for SFIV was 360, which had less input lag than it was actually supposed to because of some glitch?
Personally, as a offensive player that plays most fighters with glass cannon ninjas, I'm totally fine with this.
Yeah reading up on it, both the PC and PS3 versions of SF4 had 7 frames of lag initially, but playing with vsync off on PC brought that down to 4 frames.
360 was never supposed to have 5 frames.
Personally, as a offensive player that plays most fighters with glass cannon ninjas, I'm totally fine with this.
Yeah reading up on it, both the PC and PS3 versions of SF4 had 7 frames of lag initially, but playing with vsync off on PC brought that down to 4 frames.
360 was never supposed to have 5 frames.
What the fuck? Stop posting dude.
lucebuce12
Member
Personally, I feel like this lag becomes much more of an issue if you're
(a) A more reactive player, which Snake Eyez has always admitted to being
(b) You're playing as a character with few defense options against a very mobile character like Nash or Ken
(a) A more reactive player, which Snake Eyez has always admitted to being
(b) You're playing as a character with few defense options against a very mobile character like Nash or Ken
Umm... How do you think DisplayLag test input lag in the links you provided?!
As I mentioned in my post, he list the hardware and setting he did the test on. Not sure what are you arguing here, especially that the numbers I mentioned for input lag were listed as "around xxx" and not as hard numbers that should be taken as fact for all hardware combinations! It never is with input lag measurements, even on consoles.
Is this taking into account old controllers input lag? For Madcatz, their PS3 sticks has more lag than their PS4 ones for example. Otherwise, it's probably the poor ass implementation of the legacy controllers support drivers.
Platinum Mad
Banned
I think there is a misunderstanding. When i said pc doesn't always have 133 ms lag i meant that other pc's will have lag with different "most frequent" measurements and different ranges not that the lag measurements on a single setup will not fluctuate. So you mentioning the individual measurements from the camera shots taken of a single pc is not relevant to what i was saying.
The fact that lag or lag measurements can fluctuate does not mean that comparing averages or the most frequent measurement is meaningless. If that were the case we would never discuss lag tests (or most things in nature really) because they all have measurements that fluctuate. We are discussing the result of the test which can be significantly different on another pc configuration.
Example from displaylag test for usfiv
AMD card with borderless windowed mode : 81ms
Nvidia card, fullscreen, in game vsync : 103ms
a 20% or 22ms difference for the averages is pretty significant. whether lag was in the range of 75-96(random example) in the first configuration and 95-113(also random) is not relevant to the discussion. The user with the second setup would experience more than 1 frame of additional lag.
You said that tests show 133ms lag for pc and that link you gave is very usefull but that is the lag for the guy's setup on the link and while it is the most common scenario it is not accurate to say that all pc's will have that lag.
Like i said though it is the most common scenario and most users who have an nvidia gpu and never mess with any settings will have the same lag as the link you gave.
To qoute my first post:
The first line make it clear those are approximate ranges and not hard numbers that are true for every case! Yet you're still hung up on the 133 ms part, this whole thing seem to be the result of you not knowing what "~" means, otherwise you wouldn't try to point out that an "approximate" number, is in fact, an approximate number that doesn't represent all cases!
The ~ sign is used for very small approximations and not differences close to 20% or possibly more and if you wanted to use it that way then those numbers would be meaningless, imagine 20% off that ps4 number and 20% added to the pc number or the opposite situation. Your comment "the same/a little bit more" would be completely wrong and we wouldn't be able to use numbers that imply errors and variances of such big percentages for anything.
And it was still a disgrace. Skullgirls or Xrd have 2 frames. SF4 wasn't tournament standard because it was a technical masterpiece, it was tournament standard because of the brand name.
deadscreensky
Member
Pretending 3 additional frames of input lag (for the record I already think SF4 was way too high, but let's go with it) doesn't matter is like pretending 60fps doesn't matter. The reason we want higher frame rates in the first place is for more responsive controls, and SF5 having input lag somewhere equivalent to Grand Theft Auto 4 is completely contrary to that goal. If 60fps matters than so does not having 133ms of input lag.
mekes
Member
For me personally, I've noticed my reaction times seemed off on certain things I've wanted to implement into my game on SF5. The extra input delay might explain it. One example being, wanting to SRK a Necalli player who uses discs guidance. Using Ryus parry would be another example, it doesn't feel all that natural to use on reaction.
I see this coming up all the time. Of course people noticed. Most didn't outright say "this game has a lot of input lag" because it could be for other reasons, but everyone noticed, for example, that teleport mixups were a lot stronger in this game for whatever reason, and that it was much more difficult to block/punish them, even if you could just fine in a different game. Everyone noticed that whiff punishing was a lot harder in this game, and people can get away with pressing shit they wouldn't get away with in other games.
First thing I did when I played the first PC beta was to open NVidia control panel and disable vsync for the game (once I noticed there was no in-game option), it's also how I play USF IV. Input lag has always been noticeable and undesirable. It's the reason the 360 version was the tournament standard, after all. It's not actually like the arcade, it has less lag, but lag is bad, and thus the 360 version was objectively better. Only now we have people defending lag, that's the thing that has changed.
USF IV on PS4 had around the same amount of input lag when it came out, "only 3 more frames", and what did people do? Call that version a laggy piece of shit.
Everyone notices it.
So some sticks have less input lag or PS4 sticks add even more on top of the 8 frames? This is ridiculous.
And people defend it as if it was part of the game's balance, and not an issue.
I don't doubt they kept that in mind while balancing, since they had to test their own stuff, and the input lag affected their decision making, but if they want a game where you can get away with shit you wouldn't normally, they can just change the frame data of moves to keep that aspect, they don't have to actually make your input response worse. If they don't want me to be able to block something on reaction, for example, make that something faster, instead of creating a situation where I do react fast enough to the move, but the game refuses to listen to me.
The problem with the 8 frames of lag in this game in particular is that they've sped the game up so much that they're making it so much harder to react to certain things. Every character's dash is much faster than most dashes in SF4, and you've also got characters like Nash whose dash doesn't even have recognizable startup frames for the first half of the animation. This means that reacting to dashes is way harder, which changes the way the neutral game is played on a high level. You can't expect to react to dashes, or at least not nearly as easily as you could in SF4, which means now you need to predict them instead, which means you can't spend as much of your mental energy looking for other things.
If they've intentionally done this to compensate in online play, you know, I'd be ok with that, but it shouldn't affect offline play. There's no excuse for that.
This game has had such a confused development and that fact is rearing its head constantly at every step of the way. Who is this game for? Is it for offline players? You'd think so because they put the game out early seemingly to get it out in time for the CPT, right? Is it for online players? If they're delaying inputs to make the online better, you'd think so right?
On a side note the rollback netcode is infuriating. Nothing like watching your jumping attack hit and be blocked at the same time, playing the sound effect for both a hit and block, and having to guess whether or not how to proceed with your hit confirm.
Man, what a mess.
If they've intentionally done this to compensate in online play, you know, I'd be ok with that, but it shouldn't affect offline play. There's no excuse for that.
This game has had such a confused development and that fact is rearing its head constantly at every step of the way. Who is this game for? Is it for offline players? You'd think so because they put the game out early seemingly to get it out in time for the CPT, right? Is it for online players? If they're delaying inputs to make the online better, you'd think so right?
On a side note the rollback netcode is infuriating. Nothing like watching your jumping attack hit and be blocked at the same time, playing the sound effect for both a hit and block, and having to guess whether or not how to proceed with your hit confirm.
Man, what a mess.
I don't know if I would, personally. Not only because, as you said, it affects offline play as well, but because even if it didn't, it brings the worst of both worlds to online play. You essentially have, for all practical purposes, a delay based online play, but you also have rollbacks every now and then. What should be the best possible netcode for fighting games becomes the worst thing ever if you force a universal input delay before you even count for the rollbacks. The purpose of input delay options in rollback-based netcodes is precisely to avoid rollbacks. Skullgirls did it right, as always.
But yeah, it would be much better if at least offline play wasn't compromised, then you'd have stuff like vsync off to compensate for online lag and make it more like offline play, exactly like SF IV on PC.
This is a very important point that I see a lot of people ignoring when defending the game.
"They focused on the competitive community first!", really? Because it doesn't really feel like it.
I don't give a crap about Arcade Mode, CPU Versus Mode, Story Mode, don't care about any of that shit, and it still feels like a very incomplete game. We couldn't create more than 2-man lobbies at launch, we still don't have in-game voice chat, we still can't fucking search for lobbies with region/connection filters. This isn't a game that decided to launch with incomplete single player features to focus on multiplayer, this is just unfinished all around.
EDIT: Hell, every time I watch a tournament stream, I'm baffled that they STILL didn't make offline rematch something both players need to press. How in the world is that focusing on the competitive community?
Laurel_McFang
Member
SFV is 60 fps so 4 frame input lag on PC means 15 inputs per second vs PS4 8 frame lag which means 7 inputs a second. This isn't starcraft. In starcraft that would be the difference between 12 commands a second vs 7 which would decimate a game. That cumulative advantage of 5 commands a second would build up fast. The main reason SFV is less affected is each move takes a set number of frames and pending cancels it would be difficult to fit more than 7 SFV moves into a second. However that does give PC players a larger reaction window to block and move out of the way which is unfair. At EVO things will be even as PS4s will probably be the system of choice. But they really should strive to make frame rates equal. Which it looks like they tried to it's just pc players can easily mod the game using a txt file. I actually don't have an issue with Capcom's early access release of the game except that they didn't call it early access. It's better that they're getting good feedback. Still hopeful they'll turn this around, but I got Xrd Revelator back to Jam practice.
Laurel_McFang
Member
I'm not an Unreal 4 dev, but it looks like pc players are getting the edge by modifying a settings file that is harder to get to on ps4. Not sure if unreal lets you lock input lag in code, but even so modders could patch the game to decrease the lag. The other method would be to reduce lag on ps4, which is probably better. Even with reducing ps4 lag certain pcs with really fast input methods would still be better. Fighting game aficionados already shell out big bucks to reduce controller lag and the less scrupulous buy lag switches to fuck up online play. So no simple solution I suppose.