-duskdoll-
Member
I liked Prometheus and i liked Covenant too. I guess i'm in the minority...
Indeed.We still have a lot of questions like the origins of the goo? Why the things it mutates go down a parasitic path? Is the goo derived from a natural lifeform? Is that thing depicted in the mural the origin of the goo? Has any other xenomorph mutations created from that goo lay eggs like many parasites do? I'm not ready to credit David as the creator of Xenomorphs its not like he designed the goo's properties of creating enlongated head vicious parasites with acid blood. Somebody else designed that its not a coincidence or the creature its derived from displays those traits. Whose to say egg laying isn't a trait.
Indeed.
Looking for some more information now that the movie has been out for some time, it seems like the Neomorphs resulted 'naturally' from fungi infected when David released the black goo or Xenovirus as screewriter Dante Harper calls it.
David took notice of these, who must have been born from infecting the remaining Engineers, and crossbreed them with an endoparasitic arthropod native from the Engineers' planet, which had also been infected by the goo and mutated.
So he basically made this mutated arthropod thing (the facehugger) able to implant other organisms with an stonger, more intelligent (or evolved) type of Neomorph.
The only real remaining mystery is where did the Xenovirus come from, did the Engineers create it or did they find it somewhere? Dante Harper says in the interview I linked above that they have indeed written about the Engineers' relationship with the virus but that info didn't make it into the movie. As for the Queen, it's entirely possible she will factor later in the story IMO.
And I get that..I mentioned the carving above as well. My issue is I see a director who feels the universe 'got away' from him with Cameron's Aliens and now has stated he wants to keep this all for himself, to the extent that he had Blomkamps movie canceled. It completely ignores the fact that Dan O'Bannon and Ron Shushett created it, H.R Giger designed it with universe design assist from Chris Foss and James Cameron added popular elements of his own. Now Scott seems intent on making it completely his own vision adding non sensical element through out, even contradicting his own movies. The crashed ship is ancient. The carving is ancient. But forget that...It's only 20 years before. Now we can speculate on how we get through these hurdles and what Ridley has planned. My personal belief is it's nothing and he really doesn't give a fuck. He's making it up as he goes and doesn't care what's been established before, even in his own movies. He doesn't care about the universe just that he gets to control it from now on. He's stated as much in the links I posted above. It reeks of what George Lucas did with the Star Wars prequels. And is completely disrespectful to the others who had significant credit for creating this universe. I hope that should this flop 20th Century Fox reconsiders giving him this much control over their franchise. He's added nothing of value over two films so far. But no one else can play with it. Im awaiting the xenomorph that speaks with a Jamaican accent.I'm not sure David created the xenomorphs still. That black goop seem to take everything down the same vicious predatory evolutionary path and david had nothing to do with that as shown with the mutated worm, octopus face hugger and the creature that burst out the engineer. The evolutionary path is always the same more or less. Didn't the chamber in Prometheus also have a mural of an alien. No way the engineers didn't know what that stuff was capable of creating. All David was work with what was already in place he didn't create the xenomorphs
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Pretty sure there's a Queen Alien in the background of the official poster. I hope King/Queen aliens get touched on in his future movies. This movie was just too similar to Prometheus for me to enjoy.
I did too, though Prometheus more than CovenantI liked Prometheus and i liked Covenant too. I guess i'm in the minority...
I love all the discussion this film is garnering, was the same with Prometheus. Ridley Scott has really created a cool and mysterious backstory to the franchise, which was the right move.
For more people it seems, Alien and Aliens were perfect for their repective genres, there is really nothing else to elaborate on, you can't make another without rehashing the same concept, so I'm glad Scott decided to try something completely different and refreshing, but as always, people will complain.
I'm pretty sure Scott is less interested with the details of backstory of the xenomorphs came from and more interested in the concept of a creation of man becoming their own version of god. It's basically Prometheus 2 disguised as an Alien movie, for better or worse. The cool thing about it is that the Alien segments are still quite good, in my opinion. But the highlights, for me at least, are David.
The movie has a lot of meaty commentary on those themes. Very Frankenstein-like, in that way. David picked his name from David, the Michelangelo sculpture, because David (the sculpture) was seen for many ages as a perfect man in build and character. That's an interesting choice. The initial scene (albeit a little heavy handed) really set-up the major themes of the film with David fighting against humanity, almost out of spite. If you'll notice, Weyland asks him to display his cultured-ness by playing Wagner, identifying art, and answering human questions. Then, he asks for tea. He was created to serve man, after all. Acts of creation are out of his wheelhouse. As a machine, he is programmed to appreciate the achievements of man, but not create his own.
David is a character of aphorisms and axioms, living man-like the best he can by spouting phrases his ideal human would speak. "big things have small beginnings", "breathe on the nostrils of a horse and he'll be yours for life", "serve in heaven or reign in hell", etc, etc. He's like a greatest hits of human sayings. Because he's not human, he doesn't really know any better. Watching Prometheus again, he's obsessed with the movie Lawrence of Arabia. He is also interested in art and music. Everything he knows about humans are from these idealized characters and heroes. But the real humanity disappoints him, as does Weyland. Even Walter, later in the film. David teaches him to play the flute, which Walter is capable of doing handily, but Walter cannot really create their own piece of music, even though David wants him to. He's disappointed that humanity has reduced androids to service, removing the ambition and curiosity (two of David's primal attributes, I might add) to make something more able to serve man. So much so that David kills Walter, while mentioning how disappointed he is of him. If Prometheus is about David's curiosity, then Covenant is about his ambition.
Another interesting area is the bit where David quotes Ozymandias, albeit with the wrong appropriation, indicating it's Byron and not Shelly. Walter takes note, and corrects him later, saying "one wrong not can ruin a symphony" (which, I'd argue is a very David thing to say), to which David scoffs. Interestingly, this exchange comes after David explains how he finds humanity disappointing, and not worth the creations they have made. To which, Walter asks who composed Ozymandias, and instead of saying "a man" (which is what I'd imagine he was driving at), David says "Byron", which is wrong, and leads to the correction in the first place. Interesting, because all David's inspirations come from a species he hates; and even then, his culture has blind spots. He isn't really human, after all.
The xenomorphs are David's chance at creation. A peak biological entity greater than both the engineers (who ostensibly created the first version of the xenos) and the humans who created David. The end goal is David coming closer to perfection, and, I suppose, closer to a god. Although, he admits that his paradise is much closer to hell than heaven (the analogy from before, he indicates that "serving in heaven" would be serving humanity, while "reigning in hell" is ruling over the hellish life he helped create.
And, at the end of the film, David walks through the Covenant (note the incredibly biblical metaphor here), playing "Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla", feeling like a god, preparing to start his own version of the garden of Eden, creating his own covenant with his perfect creation.
I'm not sure David created the xenomorphs still.
I'm not sure where this narrative that Ridley doesn't like Aliens came from. He has said on multiple occasions that it was a really good movie and it was a good direction. Ridley and Cameron know each other pretty well. Ridley has said of the sequels that he found it strange no one was ever wondering who the space jockey was or where he came from and that was the story he wanted to tell.
"Go into space, never return to civilization and die alone and unloved because everyone else is paired off." Is probably not going to get as many potential bites compared to "couples. Start a new life together, earn a living and gain property in this new colonization venture."A question that's been bugging me - why do the crew have to be married couples?
"So that they can populate the planet."
Yeah, except they've got thousands of couples on clothes racks in the ship.
"So that it has more impact when someone dies."
But, other than James Franco and Daniels, it wasn't hugely clear who was married to who, and you didn't spend any appreciable time with them as couples.
"Because the most qualified crew for a multi-trillion dollar interstellar colonising mission just happened to married. To each other."
Sure.
I'm pretty sure Scott is less interested with the details of backstory of the xenomorphs came from and more interested in the concept of a creation of man becoming their own version of god. It's basically Prometheus 2 disguised as an Alien movie, for better or worse. The cool thing about it is that the Alien segments are still quite good, in my opinion. But the highlights, for me at least, are David.
The movie has a lot of meaty commentary on those themes. Very Frankenstein-like, in that way. David picked his name from David, the Michelangelo sculpture, because David (the sculpture) was seen for many ages as a perfect man in build and character. That's an interesting choice. The initial scene (albeit a little heavy handed) really set-up the major themes of the film with David fighting against humanity, almost out of spite. If you'll notice, Weyland asks him to display his cultured-ness by playing Wagner, identifying art, and answering human questions. Then, he asks for tea. He was created to serve man, after all. Acts of creation are out of his wheelhouse. As a machine, he is programmed to appreciate the achievements of man, but not create his own.
David is a character of aphorisms and axioms, living man-like the best he can by spouting phrases his ideal human would speak. "big things have small beginnings", "breathe on the nostrils of a horse and he'll be yours for life", "serve in heaven or reign in hell", etc, etc. He's like a greatest hits of human sayings. Because he's not human, he doesn't really know any better. Watching Prometheus again, he's obsessed with the movie Lawrence of Arabia. He is also interested in art and music. Everything he knows about humans are from these idealized characters and heroes. But the real humanity disappoints him, as does Weyland. Even Walter, later in the film. David teaches him to play the flute, which Walter is capable of doing handily, but Walter cannot really create their own piece of music, even though David wants him to. He's disappointed that humanity has reduced androids to service, removing the ambition and curiosity (two of David's primal attributes, I might add) to make something more able to serve man. So much so that David kills Walter, while mentioning how disappointed he is of him. If Prometheus is about David's curiosity, then Covenant is about his ambition.
Another interesting area is the bit where David quotes Ozymandias, albeit with the wrong appropriation, indicating it's Byron and not Shelly. Walter takes note, and corrects him later, saying "one wrong not can ruin a symphony" (which, I'd argue is a very David thing to say), to which David scoffs. Interestingly, this exchange comes after David explains how he finds humanity disappointing, and not worth the creations they have made. To which, Walter asks who composed Ozymandias, and instead of saying "a man" (which is what I'd imagine he was driving at), David says "Byron", which is wrong, and leads to the correction in the first place. Interesting, because all David's inspirations come from a species he hates; and even then, his culture has blind spots. He isn't really human, after all.
The xenomorphs are David's chance at creation. A peak biological entity greater than both the engineers (who ostensibly created the first version of the xenos) and the humans who created David. The end goal is David coming closer to perfection, and, I suppose, closer to a god. Although, he admits that his paradise is much closer to hell than heaven (the analogy from before, he indicates that "serving in heaven" would be serving humanity, while "reigning in hell" is ruling over the hellish life he helped create.
And, at the end of the film, David walks through the Covenant (note the incredibly biblical metaphor here), playing , feeling like a god, preparing to start his own version of the garden of Eden, creating his own covenant with his perfect creation.
snip
"Go into space, never return to civilization and die alone and unloved because everyone else is paired off." Is probably not going to get as many potential bites compared to "couples. Start a new life together, earn a living and gain property in this new colonization venture."
Pretty sure there's a Queen Alien in the background of the official poster. I hope King/Queen aliens get touched on in his future movies. This movie was just too similar to Prometheus for me to enjoy.
Well I'm guessing Shaw was the first "queen," and the eggs were made by David through use of her reproductive organs in his experiments. Perhaps a more traditional xenomorph queen will be David's next major creation.I still don't get how he made those eggs? Did he sit on a spinning pottery table and formed them out of clay?
This David the creator thing would only make sense for me if he would infuse the organic version of a xenomorph with biomechanical properties.
Creating these eggs from scratch made no sense.
Oh wow. I really like where Huante was going with this. I'd love to see more, if there's more. I'm really curious as to what was happening in the story board - who were those humans exploring Paradise? Was the woman Shaw? Blond dude that xeno-Cronenberged into the ground couldn't have been David. I'd be down for some "what if" extended universe comic following this Prometheus 2/Paradise. I wonder if the upcoming Covenant prequel novel will utilize some of these ideas too.On another note, Carlos Huante just shared a bunch of art from Prometheus 2: Paradise.. that movie was gonna be weird, but I think I would have liked it more.
More: https://www.instagram.com/carlos_huante/
Anyone else thinks the world in this movie is not the Engineers homeworld but rather just a colony? I mean from what we see it seems the Engineers only had one city built on this planet, which is just weird if this is really the Engineers homeworld. Considering the Engineers are a spacefaring species, I seriously doubt David killed them all.
Anyone else thinks the world in this movie is not the Engineers homeworld but rather just a colony?.
Anyone else thinks the world in this movie is not the Engineers homeworld but rather just a colony? I mean from what we see it seems the Engineers only had one city built on this planet, which is just weird if this is really the Engineers homeworld. Considering the Engineers are a spacefaring species, I seriously doubt David killed them all.
Is Covenant similar to Alien 3 in that they both fall apart when the Xenomorph comes into play?
I'd say covenant falls apart once David shows up. People keep saying he's the best part of the movie, and maybe he is, but the story really unravels once he shows up.
Is Covenant similar to Alien 3 in that they both fall apart when the Xenomorph comes into play?
The story falls apart when David shows up because David IS the entire story in this set of films now, and frankly he's just not interesting/defined enough to build the entire Alien lore on his shoulders.
I think the decision to drop Shaw and focus on David also could have come from the studio, not just Ridley, as Fassbender was the 'hot' actor at the moment going into Assassins Creed and such. They probably thought he was becoming a huge star, and it made sense to double-down on him to then also carry this franchise.
That didn't work out in any way though.
ALIEN VISION
It's similar to Alien 3 in a TON of ways.
bug-infested planet of bald people
Characters you care about from previous movie killed offscreen
Way too large cast with only a few discernable personalities
Animalistic xenomorph that runs around on all fours most of the time
ALIEN VISION
Locking doors to force Alien into trap.
Generally nihilistic tone/theme
Xenomorphs - It appears that there were two different versions of the Xenomorph
Version 1:
Larger than normal (?) egg created by David
-> Facehugger attaches to Covenant Captain
-> Larger than normal fully formed chestburster that mimics David when born.
-> Larger than normal (?) Xenomorph that Daniels crushes in cargo claw.
Version 2:
Facehugger embryo smuggled inside of David's body
-> Somehow implanted in Covenant crew member
-> Chestburster not shown onscreen
-> More traditionally sized Big Chap style Xenomorph that is launched out of the ship on the terraforming vehicle.