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America: Christian Hypocrites

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D

Drinky Crow

Banned
http://harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html

Apparently, 75% of Americans believe that somewhere in Biblical scripture lies Ben Franklin's idea that "God helps those who help themselves." That's right; this country of brilliant thinkers assumes that our wacky pseudo-libertarian mores and knee-jerk autocratic tendencies are so damn good, God musta made 'em! Screw reading the Bible; AMERICANS ARE JUST *THAT* HOLY!

Jesus: still a librul socialist!
 
"On this essential matter, most Americans—most American Christians—are simply wrong, as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity causes apples to fly up."

Well, there is an awful analogy.
 
CabbageRed said:
"On this essential matter, most Americans—most American Christians—are simply wrong, as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity causes apples to fly up."

Well, there is an awful analogy.
Click to expand...
Actually, it's a very good one.

Deku said:
Well, the source is Harpers magazine. Not exactly an unbiased source for news.
Click to expand...
What are you taking issue with exactly?
 
And how does that diminish their point?

Does Jesus NOT preach something akin to socialism? Does he NOT excoriate the wealthy and preach more egalitarian and communitarian values? And do Americans NOT stupidly conflate Christianity and capitalist values without any sort of corroborating investigation?

I mean: we only hafta look at Olimario to see the ugly miscegenation between Texas-brand bootstrap jingoism and Christianity -- it ain't very pretty OR healthy.
 
Deku said:
Well, the source is Harpers magazine. Not exactly an unbiased source for news.
Click to expand...

That old argument would work if this was news. I know plenty of people who profess to be devout christians and think that everyone should be, however they can't name the ten commandments yet easily recite the 7 drawves names alphabetically without batting an eye. I've said it here before and I'll say it again, I fear that too many christian sects have become more about hate than love, power than humility, intolerance instead of service, selfishness instead of charity.
 
i appreciate that you're talking to me, but the fact remains that A MAN AND A WOMAN RAISING A CHILD IN THE INSTUTION OF MARRIAGE IS THE BEST! CAN'T GET BETTER THAN THAT! THE REST OF 'EM? DIRTY PAGANS!
 
The point of the analogy isn't illustration or illumination, you marginally literate chucklefuck; it's SARCASM. It's the same as saying "75% of Americans also believe in magic space faeries" or some other demonstratively inane belief compared for the sake of sarcastic hyperbole.

It's called EDITORIALIZING. ZOMG!

I swear, any one who plays stupid games of semantic wrangling without demonstrable reading comprehension skills is gonna start getting banned in my threads.
 
Deku said:
Well, the source is Harpers magazine. Not exactly an unbiased source for news.
Click to expand...
Wow, the ad hominem attacks started on post seven. You guys are slipping.

Refute the facts or shut up.
 
CabbageRed said:
You think? I'm not seeing it as functional at all. Comparing a scientific observation and a religious belief doesn't seem to work here.
Click to expand...

it's a factual comparison.

i.e. 75% of people believe the Bible advocates helping yourself. In fact, it advocates the opposite.
75% of scientists believe gravity makes you fall up. In fact, it does the opposite.


It's a simple analogy, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp. Unless you find me a passage to contradict his factual statement (i.e. a passage that tells me to help myself at the expense of others) it stands as a very good analogy.



And this news is hardly surprising. After visiting South America I came to the realization that Christianity isnt' really a monolithic religion at all - everywhere it has been adapted to fit the belief system of the people who believe it. In Bolivia they hardly acknowledge Jesus Christ, and instead devoutly worship the Virgin Mary who conveniently resembles the Quecha deity "Pachamama" in local art. People will adapt their religious beliefs to match their personal beliefs in virtually all circumstances, not the other way around.
 
The article is more about ignorance than hypocrisy, although both are certainly huge problems in contemporary American Christianity.
 
Heh, those stats are actually better then I thought they'd be.

As a Christian, I'll lay it down...most of the religious right in the US (and probably up here too) are some of the most full of shit and naive people on planet earth. A lot of it is playing religion, as opposed to truly walking the Christian walk. Not that I claim my walk is straight, but I don't stand on a crate and admonish the neighbours for the weeds in their lawn while I've got thistles in mine.

I simply detest the movement...I detest the televangelical industry, which makes MILLIONS of dollars from dumb shit suckers who somehow believe that tithing is something you should still be doing. Yeah, because God really needs 10% of your wages. Why do most of these idiots tithe? Because the crooked preachers tell 'em that the more you give, the more you get. So basically, it's akin to investing in a stock, hoping for a big pay off. In short, most give due to greed. Sounds like the Christian way to me.

Don't even get me started on snakes like Benny Hinn, one of the most vile human beings walking on the face of the earth. Rich beyond reason, totally perverting the scriptures for his own gain, and legions follow his every word like sheep. It's frankly disheartening.

I'm still a Christian...I still love the Lord, and I believe a lot of the core values of the faith, which I know many here disagree with. Alas, the Christian sheep are giving people even more reason to say fuck the Christian faith. Simply based on that precept, it's getting harder to blame 'em.
 
Nerevar said:
It's a simple analogy, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp. Unless you find me a passage to contradict his factual statement (i.e. a passage that tells me to help myself at the expense of others) it stands as a very good analogy.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of understanding it, I just think that it is a poor analogy. Crow's "Sarcastic hyperbole" seems like a reasonable explanation. Anyway, it was just a creative difference of opinion, I hadn't expected a conversation to sprout up around it. :)
 
muhamm_dawa_considert_101b.jpg
think.gif

















Think critically. Think about where your source is and who they are. Not all are credible, and most have a bias. Bias is a necessary caveat, and it does not subtract from information.









Now consider this about Mexican Americans. First and second generation Mexican Americans show signs of strong religious beliefs and better work ethics. Third generation and after MA citizens start to show ill effects of consumerism and addiction more so than first and second generation MA citizens. Is it the American lifestyle or that in the freest country in the world that these are the personal choices people make? Are Americans responsible for other Americans’ personal choices? No. People shouldn’t have their daily lives and actions policed. If people want to life free, careless, reckless, and with no organization it is their own ignorance. Ignorance seems to be only a choice for so long. There is a maturation process that I have not yet mastered which will get me out of my own ignorance and hopefully into the business world. I believe the teachings of Christianity can get me there peacefully, but so far all I know is monetary workings. Business has guided me the majority of my life, and now I seek something more. Reckless consumption will harm and kill just about anybody, but structured moralistic life with policing one’s self will give you a rewarding, meaningful life.



That, and Jesus would have ok’d smoking dope. Marijuana does less harm than Anheuser Bush’s offerings, yet doesn’t fit into the current economic structure of America. I know a great many good-natured, business-minded Christians that use marijuana, including myself. In Arabic, I believe, it translates to “better mood.” Many Americans could use something that gives them a better mood besides what the pharm-a-Co’s are selling us.
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The%20Blue%20Pill.jpg
 
This is an interesting piece. Harpers may be a left-leaning mag, but their facts are backed up and their arguments are cogent.

And why do Christians not "consider the source" when quoting the bible, a book written and re-translated by hundreds of men?
 
And this news is hardly surprising. After visiting South America I came to the realization that Christianity isnt' really a monolithic religion at all - everywhere it has been adapted to fit the belief system of the people who believe it. In Bolivia they hardly acknowledge Jesus Christ, and instead devoutly worship the Virgin Mary who conveniently resembles the Quecha deity "Pachamama" in local art. People will adapt their religious beliefs to match their personal beliefs in virtually all circumstances, not the other way around.
Click to expand...

Yep. Thats why when people say,"Oh Christianity has lasted 2000 years, so it must be true" I laugh. Even though its a crap argument, its no even true! There are thousands of different dominations, all disagreeing on MAJOR parts, and none of them resemble any of the 'first' Christians 2000 years ago.

It's a simple analogy, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp. Unless you find me a passage to contradict his factual statement (i.e. a passage that tells me to help myself at the expense of others) it stands as a very good analogy.
Click to expand...

Well I partially disagree. The whole thing is rather selfish, except you get your reward when you die! Who cares about all the people who go to hell because they never even heard of Jebus! While the OT god is a mean bastard, he never threatens you with hell, while the kinder, gentler NT god threatens you with eternal damnation - nice.
 
Deku said:
Well, the source is Harpers magazine. Not exactly an unbiased source for news.
Click to expand...
bah, harpers is a liberal magazine, but it's *easily* one of the most witty and intellectually engaging magazines i have ever read.
those with differing political views should be able to spot their jibes and get to the meat of their points, which are always completely onpoint, regardless.
 
Nerevar said:
And this news is hardly surprising. After visiting South America I came to the realization that Christianity isnt' really a monolithic religion at all - everywhere it has been adapted to fit the belief system of the people who believe it. In Bolivia they hardly acknowledge Jesus Christ, and instead devoutly worship the Virgin Mary who conveniently resembles the Quecha deity "Pachamama" in local art. People will adapt their religious beliefs to match their personal beliefs in virtually all circumstances, not the other way around.
Click to expand...

That's one of the biggest reasons why Christianity has been successful: it began as a religious hodgepodge and has continued to devour and adapt. Like any good malignant tumor.
 
Drinky Crow said:
http://harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html

Apparently, 75% of Americans believe that somewhere in Biblical scripture lies Ben Franklin's idea that "God helps those who help themselves." That's right; this country of brilliant thinkers assumes that our wacky pseudo-libertarian mores and knee-jerk autocratic tendencies are so damn good, God musta made 'em! Screw reading the Bible; AMERICANS ARE JUST *THAT* HOLY!

Jesus: still a librul socialist!
Click to expand...
You just love to troll, don't you. Any reasonable person could have used this article to start up a conversation in a way that wasn't intended to offend or outrage just to get a response. Pathetic.
 
Nerevar said:
And this news is hardly surprising. After visiting South America I came to the realization that Christianity isnt' really a monolithic religion at all - everywhere it has been adapted to fit the belief system of the people who believe it. In Bolivia they hardly acknowledge Jesus Christ, and instead devoutly worship the Virgin Mary who conveniently resembles the Quecha deity "Pachamama" in local art. People will adapt their religious beliefs to match their personal beliefs in virtually all circumstances, not the other way around.
Click to expand...
this is an extremely good point and observation, but i don't believe this happens in all cases - an important function of organized religion is social control, after all. rather, i think what's interesting is examining when this happens and when it doesn't.
 
I thought this thread would be about the blasphemous 52% of the population that believes God wants them to kill 25,000 people on the other side of the world for no reason and oppress gay people. Still an interesting read though.
 
What people are failing to realize is that there is an issue of balance between being capitalistic and socialistic, that you'll find in Abrahamic faiths. There is the concept of working to earn, and also a concept of giving to those who are less fortunate.

Some people in this World have little opportunity to better their lives. A starving orphan in North Africa has absolutely NO chance of making his/her life better. We on the other hand, DO. So we have to give to them. At the same time, since we have this opportunity to earn more, we should do so. Both concepts must exist in our lives, and for religion to speak about both of these concepts...I see nothing wrong in it.
 
Wait wait wait wait WAIT ...

I mean I only skimmed the last half of the thread, but has literally everyone completely misunderstood the quote or something? I had no idea where it came from, but it certainly does not, does not mean that God helps those who help themselves to other peoples' shit!

Jesus Christ ... It means God helps those who are themselves of use to others! FFS ...

God helps those who help, themselves - get it?
 
B-B-Bomba! said:
Wait wait wait wait WAIT ...

I mean I only skimmed the last half of the thread, but has literally everyone completely misunderstood the quote or something? I had no idea where it came from, but it certainly does not, does not mean that God helps those who help themselves to other peoples' shit!

Jesus Christ ... It means God helps those who are themselves of use to others! FFS ...

God helps those who help, themselves - get it?
Click to expand...
THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SUPPLY SIDE JESUS:

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.

Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

Rent the man a rod and pay him a wage slightly above the rental cost of the rod and you have the beginnings of a cheap, stupid workforce to line your coffers forevermore.
 
36989.gif

:lol

So once I actually thought about it I could see the third interpretation you've all made, being that if you help yourself - not necessarily to things, just in the sense of having a sense of self-worth, faith in your own value, and the confidence to assert yourself accordingly - then the universe generally opens up before you. And fair enough, I'm prepared to admit that's very probably the sense in which it's always been meant, and apologise for being a wanker about it before. I think I got confused at a very early age by the comic twist it can take, for example a burglar using it to rationalise 'helping themselves' to some swag. Puzzling about what the quote actually did mean, I came to the conclusion that it meant God helps those who are helpful. Live and learn, and apologies again for being a tit.

What was the thread about again? ;)
 
Uter said:
You just love to troll, don't you. Any reasonable person could have used this article to start up a conversation in a way that wasn't intended to offend or outrage just to get a response. Pathetic.
Click to expand...

But it's not trolling when you start the thread. And I think this statistic should offend people; that is, it should offend people who aren't in the 75% as to the stupidity of the average American. What else could it mean, really?
 
King Jippo said:
This calls for a posting of the GAF logo:
gaflogo.JPG

It never fails!
Click to expand...
No flags, no crosses, and no Nintendo?

Oh I get it, you were trying to make a point. Cute.
 
The reason marijuana isn't legal is because pot smokers make posts like Raymond Carver did. What the hell was that dude? Mexicans and drugs?

PS: Quakers keep it real yo.
 
Since when was religion actually about following Christ? I thought it was more about subjegating the masses through fear and false hopes.

The actual words and actions of Christ are to religion what a dry cleaning store is to the mafia.
 
Drinky Crow said:
http://harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html

Apparently, 75% of Americans believe that somewhere in Biblical scripture lies Ben Franklin's idea that "God helps those who help themselves." That's right; this country of brilliant thinkers assumes that our wacky pseudo-libertarian mores and knee-jerk autocratic tendencies are so damn good, God musta made 'em! Screw reading the Bible; AMERICANS ARE JUST *THAT* HOLY!

Jesus: still a librul socialist!
Click to expand...


I also love how religion is shoved down my throat one way or the other in my everyday life (either directly or indirectly). >_<
 
I'm a christian socialist. Well, maybe not total socialist, I can see some benefits to captialism, but it needs some STRONG regulations to make sure people aren't taken advantage of and subsequently oppressed. And I think it's ridiculous how much the parents affect a child's chance at success and how that's just plain accepted, mankind is capable of overcoming these things if we would just bother to care.

I love the shepherding analogy, if a sheep goes astray you don't let it go, you don't yell at it, and you don't go punish it--you go to where it is and help it find it's way back. Some people are born astray, and I don't mean they aren't christian, but on the fringe of society. They're not given the wisdom or knowledge to overcome, if they're offered it they often haven't been given the learning skills to absorb it, and if they absorb it they often don't have the means to utilize it. But we can be shepherds and help them, which in the end will help everyone when everyone is a productive member of society.

Sure, we're all selfish bastards and we don't want to, especially since nobody did for us. But recognizing you're a selfish bastard isn't an excuse to be one, it is however a reason to try and change that fact and do what you know is right. I think that's pretty much what Christ taught, and his death and resurrection opened the door for the grace necessary for it to work on both spiritual and physical levels. Being a christian is accepting that and learning how to work it out in your life, as he did perfectly.
 
Dice said:
I'm a christian socialist. Well, maybe not total socialist, I can see some benefits to captialism, but it needs some STRONG regulations to make sure people aren't taken advantage of and subsequently oppressed. And I think it's ridiculous how much the parents affect a child's chance at success and how that's just plain accepted, mankind is capable of overcoming these things if we would just bother to care.

I love the shepherding analogy, if a sheep goes astray you don't let it go, you don't yell at it, and you don't go punish it--you go to where it is and help it find it's way back. Some people are born astray, and I don't mean they aren't christian, but on the fringe of society. They're not given the wisdom or knowledge to overcome, if they're offered it they often haven't been given the learning skills to absorb it, and if they absorb it they often don't have the means to utilize it. But we can be shepherds and help them, which in the end will help everyone when everyone is a productive member of society.

Sure, we're all selfish bastards and we don't want to, especially since nobody did for us. But recognizing you're a selfish bastard isn't an excuse to be one, it is however a reason to try and change that fact and do what you know is right. I think that's pretty much what Christ taught, and his death and resurrection opened the door for the grace necessary for it to work on both spiritual and physical levels. Being a christian is accepting that and learning how to work it out in your life, as he did perfectly.
Click to expand...

I like you. :)
 
Dice said:
I'm a christian socialist. Well, maybe not total socialist, I can see some benefits to captialism, but it needs some STRONG regulations to make sure people aren't taken advantage of and subsequently oppressed. And I think it's ridiculous how much the parents affect a child's chance at success and how that's just plain accepted, mankind is capable of overcoming these things if we would just bother to care.

I love the shepherding analogy, if a sheep goes astray you don't let it go, you don't yell at it, and you don't go punish it--you go to where it is and help it find it's way back. Some people are born astray, and I don't mean they aren't christian, but on the fringe of society. They're not given the wisdom or knowledge to overcome, if they're offered it they often haven't been given the learning skills to absorb it, and if they absorb it they often don't have the means to utilize it. But we can be shepherds and help them, which in the end will help everyone when everyone is a productive member of society.

Sure, we're all selfish bastards and we don't want to, especially since nobody did for us. But recognizing you're a selfish bastard isn't an excuse to be one, it is however a reason to try and change that fact and do what you know is right. I think that's pretty much what Christ taught, and his death and resurrection opened the door for the grace necessary for it to work on both spiritual and physical levels. Being a christian is accepting that and learning how to work it out in your life, as he did perfectly.
Click to expand...

rus_group-applaud_w400.jpg

Dice you're a wise man. Finally here is a fellow christian that I can agree with. Sadly, I feel that the most vocal christians are not like you or I. And that is why I worry about the state of American christianity.
 
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