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America's China Syndrome

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ToxicAdam

Member
... or what is America afraid of?


America's China Syndrome
By Jonah Goldberg

Chinese President Hu Jintao's state visit this week has rekindled the familiar debate over American "decline." Our sole-superpower moment is over, we're told, and the 21st century will prove so much tougher than the 20th.

I'm just not sure what all the fuss is about.

Perhaps one source of confusion is this whole sole-superpower business. It's true that from the early 1990s until around now, America has been essentially alone at the top of the world heap. But that hasn't meant as much as a lot of folks claim. During this Pax Americana, a nasty war broke out in Europe, genocide materialized in Africa, and the United States was harassed and wounded by stateless Islamic terrorism.

We also fought a war in Iraq that ended in a bloody armistice, requiring constant policing for more than a decade. Now we're in another expensive war. Meanwhile, our trade deficit only gets worse, and our industrial base has been outsourced to Mexico, Vietnam, and (of course) China.

Next, we're told, one of the consequences of the new multipolar world will be that we won't be able to do things unilaterally anymore. Anymore? What movie were they watching?


When we were supposedly cock of the walk, under Democratic and Republican presidents alike, anti-Americanism flourished. The United Nations refused to authorize the use of force to stop ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. Sure, we didn't take no for an answer, but we didn't go it alone. We joined with our NATO allies to put an end to the bloodshed.

During the Persian Gulf War, America had that "grand coalition" that Sen. John Kerry talked about. During the second Iraq war, the "coalition of the willing" was smaller, but we were hardly flying solo. U.S. leaders decried unilateralism, an odd sentiment for the undisputed global hegemon.

Another reigning cliché is that the sun is setting on us as it did on the British Empire. But what does that mean? China isn't remotely powerful, influential, or rich enough to play the leading role of America, and we aren't nearly so weak, ignorable, or poor as to deserve the supporting gig as 1950s Britain.

Besides, although China clearly wants its moment in the sun, it doesn't seem particularly eager or able to lead. "When was the last time Beijing offered its own peace plan for the Arab-Israeli conflict, for instance?" asks Jonathan Eyal, Europe correspondent for the Straits Times in Singapore.


"Other emerging powers are no better," he adds. "What is India's contribution to, say, solving the crisis in Sudan? Or Russia's plan for dealing with the North Korean nuclear problem?"

In other words, American leadership is still the global norm.

Then there are China's very real problems. China has 700 million very poor people. By 2050, it will have 400 million very old people. It will "get old before it gets rich," as conservative writer Mark Steyn likes to say. The country is shot through with corruption, bogus accounting practices that make subprime-mortgage bundles look like gold bullion, and a political elite that remains terrified of democracy. A confident government doesn't banish its Nobel Peace Prize winners.

Even with its copycat stealth fighter, China is certainly less of a military threat to the United States than the Soviet Union was. It's more of an economic challenger, but that's a good problem to have, right? Currency wars are better than nuclear ones.

The most important point is that China's rise doesn't reflect some grand failure of American foreign policy but its success. Drawing China into the global economic and political system has been a bipartisan foreign-policy goal for generations. That creates new problems but better ones.

China is still governed by a fundamentally evil system. Hu has blood on his hands - he ordered the slaughter of hundreds of unarmed Tibetan protesters in 1989. But it's less evil than when it kept a billion people in poverty and killed 65 million of its own citizens. That's progress.

For the last century, America was the good-guy lead on the international stage. In that role, we relied on a broad arsenal, literally and figuratively, to help move the world to democracy and prosperity. Contrary to a lot of nostalgic nonsense about the simplicity of the Cold War and the ease of our "unipolar moment," that effort was hard, complicated, and punctuated with surprising successes and unpredicted failures. In that sense, the new normal looks a lot like the old normal.


I don't understand this sudden fear of China. Especially among the right, who seem to feign fear in Obama "kowtowing" to their delegation currently in Washington. If anything, we should be relieved that there is another economic superpower that can help alleviate the stress of having to shoulder the many economic/social problems that seem to flare up every year.

l
 

otake

Doesn't know that "You" is used in both the singular and plural
I care but not enough to be scarred or worried. From a business standpoint, we have been unable to do business in China for a variety of reasons and Chinese manufacturers can't put a dent in our business because no one will buy Chinese in this business. Therefore, for me, the status quo seems fine.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
They have all the benefits of being a world power without having to spend trillions being the world's police.

Besides, China's world influence is all soft-power. Look at how they're approaching Africa - give millions of low-no interest loans and investment guarantees to African countries for their support. The only time their military has left the Pacific was when they needed to send ships to protect shipping routes near Somalia.
 

MrHicks

Banned
it isn't really "the rise of china" more so as "the return of china"

they were a pretty big deal in ancient times things just turned to shit for a while and now the dragon rises again hehe
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Fear of China is overblown but this article, like everything Jonah Goldberg writes, is superficial and poorly-argued. Just one example:

Perhaps one source of confusion is this whole sole-superpower business. It's true that from the early 1990s until around now, America has been essentially alone at the top of the world heap. But that hasn't meant as much as a lot of folks claim. During this Pax Americana, a nasty war broke out in Europe, genocide materialized in Africa, and the United States was harassed and wounded by stateless Islamic terrorism.

So, America is not as strong as we would like to think, and thus China is nothing to worry about?

Another reigning cliché is that the sun is setting on us as it did on the British Empire. But what does that mean? China isn't remotely powerful, influential, or rich enough to play the leading role of America, and we aren't nearly so weak, ignorable, or poor as to deserve the supporting gig as 1950s Britain.

Only worthwhile point in the whole piece.

Besides, although China clearly wants its moment in the sun, it doesn't seem particularly eager or able to lead. "When was the last time Beijing offered its own peace plan for the Arab-Israeli conflict, for instance?" asks Jonathan Eyal, Europe correspondent for the Straits Times in Singapore.

"Other emerging powers are no better," he adds. "What is India's contribution to, say, solving the crisis in Sudan? Or Russia's plan for dealing with the North Korean nuclear problem?"

In other words, American leadership is still the global norm.

Goldberg's examples of American leadership are three issues where such "leadership" has been an abject failure.

Even with its copycat stealth fighter, China is certainly less of a military threat to the United States than the Soviet Union was. It's more of an economic challenger, but that's a good problem to have, right? Currency wars are better than nuclear ones.

No, it's not a good problem to have. "Problm not as bad as potential nuclear war" /= "good problem."

For the last century, America was the good-guy lead on the international stage. In that role, we relied on a broad arsenal, literally and figuratively, to help move the world to democracy and prosperity. Contrary to a lot of nostalgic nonsense about the simplicity of the Cold War and the ease of our "unipolar moment," that effort was hard, complicated, and punctuated with surprising successes and unpredicted failures. In that sense, the new normal looks a lot like the old normal.

Blah blah America fuck yeah!
 

Ikael

Member
I agree with the main sentiment of the article: despite for all the nationalist cock - waving proclamations, America, like any other country, rarely ever acted alone, so there is little real change regarding that issue.
 

Zenith

Banned
Next, we're told, one of the consequences of the new multipolar world will be that we won't be able to do things unilaterally anymore. Anymore? What movie were they watching?

I don't get this.

"When was the last time Beijing offered its own peace plan for the Arab-Israeli conflict, for instance?" asks Jonathan Eyal, Europe correspondent for the Straits Times in Singapore.

Or this.
 
Since we didn't act alone in the Iraq war, out of curiosity what was the proportionality of our involvement vs that of our allies?
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Zenith said:
I don't get this.



Or this.


Yup. America does shit unilaterally all the time. Or bypasses democracies and appeals directly to their religiously motivated corporate prime ministers.

And why should China come up with an Arab Israeli peace process? It's neither a sponsor nor a belligerent in the conflict. Unlike us.
 

Zenith

Banned
this didn't per chance come from townhall.com? I just had to close a Sarah Palin pop-up and deal with Sean Hannity's face. I was wondering why the article read so poorly.
 

JoeBoy101

Member
Zenith said:
this didn't per chance come from townhall.com? I just had to close a Sarah Palin pop-up and deal with Sean Hannity's face. I was wondering why the article read so poorly.

Here's the LA Times Link so you don't accidentally mace your screen.
 
I <3 Memes said:
If China does end up overtaking the U.S. as the worlds biggest super power then I guess Communism > Capitalism.

Not quite. What china has done, is simply mix communist political theory with capitalist economic theory. The idea is that as long as people are well fed and can buy whatever they want, they won't care about how their country is being run. Won't be surprised if some countries in Africa copy this and Russia decides to try this.

The problem of course comes in the form of worker treatment. Chinese workers work unreasonably hard, and can easily be replaced if they complain as more and more are moving from the countryside to the city. Also Chinese government doesn't seem to be trying to regulate the environmental impact that these companies have. Right now china is becoming more and more polluted. Now imagine if everyone in there had cars. It would just be disastrous.

I'm also worried that the same environmental carelessness and poor worker treatment is being outsourced to Africa. My fear is that they'll poison the rivers, clear out the forests, and destroy the wildlife of one of the most beautiful continents on earth with the unique and diverse animal and plant species. Its really like watching a repeat of the industrial revolution of 18th and 19th century Europe.

I think what this author and some Americans are worried about is that they won't be taken seriously on the world stage, but honestly America has done so much shit to make the global community hate them that frankly they shouldn't be surprised. Its like if you insult someone and you're offended when they insult you back or they avoid interacting with you in anyway. Besides, they have many domestic issues to sort out.
 

numble

Member
I <3 Memes said:
If China does end up overtaking the U.S. as the worlds biggest super power then I guess Communism > Capitalism.
It's not really communism. It's a country run by technocrats.

Look at the Politburo Standing Committee and you'll see that all but one were engineers or majored in hard sciences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_Standing_Committee_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China

And they embrace capitalism. I guess you can say it's not entirely free market capitalism, since a lot of their industries are state-run (but they are generally more profitable than the old-style state industries since these industries are profit-driven and often run by guys that graduated from US business schools).

http://blogs.worldbank.org/eastasiapacific/state-owned-enterprises-in-china-how-profitable-are-they
 
Dude Abides said:
Fear of China is overblown but this article, like everything Jonah Goldberg writes, is superficial and poorly-argued. Just one example:



So, America is not as strong as we would like to think, and thus China is nothing to worry about?

Except for the part where that's not what he said or implied at all. His point is that America NEVER had the ability to act independently and if it did it never really used it. It has nothing do with the strength of America. If America has the ability to be the sole-superpower they haven't used it.

Goldberg's examples of American leadership are three issues where such "leadership" has been an abject failure.

Yes, trying to fix a real problem is actually a better course than just leaving things broken. I personally believe that the US has gotten it wrong, but if you're going to claim that they are a fading superpower or that china will overtake the US, you have to actually show instances of China actually taking a leadership position on some global issues, which they basically have not. Even their extent of negotiation on the North Korean issue has basically been to say "The US should sit down and talk to North Korea."


No, it's not a good problem to have. "Problm not as bad as potential nuclear war" /= "good problem."

Actually it IS a good problem to have, if you want to globalize the economy and bring poor nations out of poverty. Are there negatives? Sure, but it's inherently a policy debate, which I can't necessarily say is a bad thing.


Blah blah America fuck yeah!

Is this sarcasm supposed to indicate that the article is a blind supporter of American policy? Because to me it's just showing that you may be a blind detractor of America.
 
numble said:
It's not really communism. It's a country run by technocrats.

Look at the Politburo Standing Committee and you'll see that all but one were engineers or majored in hard sciences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_Standing_Committee_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China

And they embrace capitalism. I guess you can say it's not entirely free market capitalism, since a lot of their industries are state-run (but they are generally more profitable than the old-style state industries since these industries are profit-driven and often run by guys that graduated from US business schools).

http://blogs.worldbank.org/eastasiapacific/state-owned-enterprises-in-china-how-profitable-are-they

China is heavily investing in their infrastructure, modernizing airports, building HSR systems, and investing in bioscience/electric batteries.

China does what the U.S. won't.
 

Jackson50

Member
The fear is exaggerated. And it is perpetuated by the political elites. It is an effective bogeyman. For example, this ad produced by CAGW. The message and imagery are striking. It touches on many topics all underlined with the menacing Chinese threat. Moreover, what intrigues me is the fear is mutual. China may have acted bolder throughout the preceding year, but they are still insecure. They fear and mistrust us as much as we fear and mistrust them.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
China is heavily investing in their infrastructure, modernizing airports, building HSR systems, and investing in bioscience/electric batteries.

China does what the U.S. won't.

I agree with you to a large extent. The US really does need to fix the infrastructure. But China is also over-leveraging itself on construction, a vast majority of which is unnecessary and a lot of which is not even used. When that bubble bursts it's going to seriously bite them.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
China is heavily investing in their infrastructure, modernizing airports, building HSR systems, and investing in bioscience/electric batteries.

China does what the U.S. won't.

Its important to note that although they're doing those things, very people are using the airports, schools etc. Many people in China are still farmers who are resisting the cities. Likely because of the tales of horror they hear and the fact that their lands are ancestral.

Can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. They have to find a way to entice the rest of their population to live in cities, likely through telling them that their lives will dramatically improve and by offering them very good prices for their farms. Otherwise we'll just keep seeing more empty apartment buildings, malls, and ghost towns.

AbortedWalrusFetus said:
I agree with you to a large extent. The US really does need to fix the infrastructure. But China is also over-leveraging itself on construction, a vast majority of which is unnecessary and a lot of which is not even used. When that bubble bursts it's going to seriously bite them.
One way they could remedy this is by encouraging those who have been driven away by the xenophobia in europe and israel to immigrate to china. Also you see some Chinese moving from China to Africa, the reverse should be happening as well.
 
Hmm, ok.

It also doesn't help with the pirating issues that costs foreign businesses billions of dollars, and the issue of indeginous innovations, and IP/trademark issues. China practically forces foreign businesses to sign away their IPs, and when their government does take action, it's a long process where damage is already done.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
Except for the part where that's not what he said or implied at all. His point is that America NEVER had the ability to act independently and if it did it never really used it. It has nothing do with the strength of America.

It's rare to see two sentences that contradict each other in direct sequence.

Yes, trying to fix a real problem is actually a better course than just leaving things broken.

Ineffective "leadership" is better than no leadership at all? I doubt it. At least the latter doesn't waste time and resousrces.

Actually it IS a good problem to have, if you want to globalize the economy and bring poor nations out of poverty.

What are you talking about? Goldberg is referring to the possibility of a trade war due to China's refusal to float its currency. Again, yes, a trade war is better than a nuclear war, but that doesn't make a trade war a "good problem."

Is this sarcasm supposed to indicate that the article is a blind supporter of American policy? Because to me it's just showing that you may be a blind detractor of America.

Goldberg's claims about America taking the "good-guy lead" for the past century and bringing democracy and prosperity to the world are false. It's just simplistic flag-waving. America has done many good things, and many bad things, but the idea that our foreign policy is has been aimed at spreading democracy and prosperity to the world is simply false. Maybe if "the world" actually means "Europe after 1945" it would be true, but otherwise it is false.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Hmm, ok.

It also doesn't help with the pirating issues that costs foreign businesses billions of dollars, and the issue of indeginous innovations, and IP/trademark issues. China practically forces foreign businesses to sign away their IPs, and when their government does take action, it's a long process where damage is already done.

There are some private groups that do go after companies that make knock off items though. There's one individual in beijing who has a company named Smiling Wolf that goes after people who make fake medicines, clothes, etc. The idea of fake medicines is really capitalism gone mad, because people in China and the rest of the developing world still die from diseases that the west doesn't have to worry about. So that's a huge issue and even more depressing when its Chinese who are responsible for harming their own people and damaging the workforce of emerging economic powers. I don't know about their government telling foreign companies to sign away their IPs. With that sort of precondition in place, I would imagine that there wouldn't be nearly as many western companies coming to china as they take that shit very seriously.

Dreams-Visions said:
hey guys, what's the story behind that F-22 clone? stolen blue-prints?
Doubt it. I don't see why it would be hard to believe that the Chinese can develop sophisticated military equipment on their own.
 
Dude Abides said:
It's rare to see two sentences that contradict each other in direct sequence.

You're right, let me restate the second one. It has nothing to do with a DECLINE in American strength.

Ineffective "leadership" is better than no leadership at all? I doubt it. At least the latter doesn't waste time and resousrces.

Totally dude. Anarchy is absolutely the way to go.

What are you talking about? Goldberg is referring to the possibility of a trade war due to China's refusal to float its currency. Again, yes, a trade war is better than a nuclear war, but that doesn't make a trade war a "good problem."

Only ASPECTS of "trade wars" are negative. All forms of market competition are essentially trade wars, and they are not inherently bad. There are bad aspects and good aspects of the market interactions with China, but by and large they have been good, up until this point.

Goldberg's claims about America taking the "good-guy lead" for the past century and bringing democracy and prosperity to the world are false. It's just simplistic flag-waving. America has done many good things, and many bad things, but the idea that our foreign policy is has been aimed at spreading democracy and prosperity to the world is simply false. Maybe if "the world" actually means "Europe after 1945" it would be true, but otherwise it is false.

I really don't think that is the intent of this article. There's a lot of flag waving in it, but it's more of a sobering dose of "the world as we know it is not going to end" and "we are not going to all be slaves to chinese taskmasters." Which is basically completely true. There's a lot of garbage rhetoric in it, but the premise isn't really bad.
 

numble

Member
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
I agree with you to a large extent. The US really does need to fix the infrastructure. But China is also over-leveraging itself on construction, a vast majority of which is unnecessary and a lot of which is not even used. When that bubble bursts it's going to seriously bite them.
I don't think the bite, if it occurs, will be as big as the bubble crash in the US.

First, it seems like every year they keep putting in measures to try to cool the rise of property, something I would've liked to have seen the US been proactive at prior to the financial crisis:
http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=119790

Second, there are stricter mortgage limits and Chinese generally save more and put a lot of hard cash in buying property. If people want to invest in property-flipping, it more often comes out of their pocket and not from a bank. Still problematic if a bubble bursts, but not as big a hit when it is not the financial industry dealing with worthless assets.

Some construction and development companies may go down, and companies in other industries that were flush with cash would stop investing in real estate, but I don't think that's that big of a hit, especially since they just went through 20 years of a whole bunch of unprofitable state industries being shuttered or privatized and laying off employees.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
hey guys, what's the story behind that F-22 clone? stolen blue-prints?
It's a piece of crap compared to the F-22 from what I've heard from jet enthusiasts. It's not nearly as stealthy or manuverable
 

Kabouter

Member
MrHicks said:
it isn't really "the rise of china" more so as "the return of china"

they were a pretty big deal in ancient times things just turned to shit for a while and now the dragon rises again hehe
Given that China never really projected its power as a state very far beyond its borders, its expeditions after all were huge but made little impact, it really is "the rise of China".
 
numble said:
I don't think the bite, if it occurs, will be as big as the bubble crash in the US.

First, it seems like every year they keep putting in measures to try to cool the rise of property, something I would've liked to have seen the US been proactive at prior to the financial crisis:
http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=119790

Second, there are stricter mortgage limits and Chinese generally save more and put a lot of hard cash in buying property. If people want to invest in property-flipping, it more often comes out of their pocket and not from a bank. Still problematic if a bubble bursts, but not as big a hit when it is not the financial industry dealing with worthless assets.

Some construction and development companies may go down, and companies in other industries that were flush with cash would stop investing in real estate, but I don't think that's that big of a hit, especially since they just went through 20 years of a whole bunch of unprofitable state industries being shuttered or privatized and laying off employees.

Construction comprises 60%* of the China's GDP, and consumption rates in china are falling. That means the vast majority of their economy relies on construction of property that people cannot/will not use, and are using less and less of.

* According to some economists. I remain skeptical, but it is nonetheless a large portion of their economy.

Edit: This is a good piece on the problems facing the chinese economy related to construction.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2010/11/17/chanos-vs-china/
 

Dude Abides

Banned
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
You're right, let me restate the second one. It has nothing to do with a DECLINE in American strength.

Then we agree. But it has nothing to do with China.

Only ASPECTS of "trade wars" are negative. All forms of market competition are essentially trade wars, and they are not inherently bad. There are bad aspects and good aspects of the market interactions with China, but by and large they have been good, up until this point.

I don't think we're using "trade war" in the same sense. The way you're using it - as a term for market competition - seems to be the opposite of the traditional definition. In any event I shouldn't have used that term, since Goldberg refers to a currency war rather than a trade war. But the point stands that "Problem A is not as bad as Problem B" is not a good argument that Problem A isn't much of a problem, particularly when Problem B is a nuclear war.


I really don't think that is the intent of this article. There's a lot of flag waving in it, but it's more of a sobering dose of "the world as we know it is not going to end" and "we are not going to all be slaves to chinese taskmasters." Which is basically completely true. There's a lot of garbage rhetoric in it, but the premise isn't really bad.

I agree, which is why I said that in the first line of my initial post. Fear of China is overblown. Nonetheless, this piece is terrible.
 

dogmaan

Girl got arse pubes.
ElectricBlue187 said:
It's a piece of crap compared to the F-22 from what I've heard from jet enthusiasts. It's not nearly as stealthy or manuverable

I would like to believe it's rubbish, but it is hard to tell the RCS of an aircraft just from the pictures, the plane will likely have some sort of RAM coating on it as well, good look analysing that from the photos.

Also it's design looks very similiar to the Russian mig 1.44, it is likely that the Chinese had Russian assistance, or they stole a Russian design (unlikely).
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
China is heavily investing in their infrastructure, modernizing airports, building HSR systems, and investing in bioscience/electric batteries.

China does what the U.S. won't.
True but mostly because they've never had any of those things. Sure, it would be nice if the US would spend it's tax money to modernize everything but we already have more roads and stuff than everybody so while there are serious infrastructure problems that need solving in the US we aren't quite in the same position as China. We're in a better one I think. We also still lead in R&D so yeah, we're doing fine it just looks bad because China is catching up at an alarming rate
 

otake

Doesn't know that "You" is used in both the singular and plural
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Hmm, ok.

It also doesn't help with the pirating issues that costs foreign businesses billions of dollars, and the issue of indeginous innovations, and IP/trademark issues. China practically forces foreign businesses to sign away their IPs, and when their government does take action, it's a long process where damage is already done.

We ( where I work) won't do business in china for similar reasons. We sold some equipment there awhile ago and found that some Chinese company copied our hardware, made a copy of our firmware and put another logo on a box and sold it for a fraction of the price. We couldn't do anything about it.
 
The article ended on a fairly positive note really. And in terms of "world leadership" - I would have to agree that North America does try to reach out aggressively to other countries. The reasons being to maintain communications with them or for greed, who knows. But just the act of reaching out to every different country is quite the hallmark and hence why I believe NA (meaning US + Canada) still can be looked at like the "leader."
 
hydragonwarrior said:
The article ended on a fairly positive note really. And in terms of "world leadership" - I would have to agree that North America does try to reach out aggressively to other countries. The reasons being to maintain communications with them or for greed, who knows. But just the act of reaching out to every different country is quite the hallmark and hence why I believe NA (meaning US + Canada) still can be looked at like the "leader."

Thats cute. You put Canada and leader in the same sentence.
 

Gaborn

Member
TacticalFox88 said:
China has all the time in the world. We don't.

With the gender imbalance caused by China's "one child" policy and the desirability in their culture of having a boy their population is unsustainable, and so is any future they have as a "super power," we're in much better shape in that respect.
 
Gaborn said:
With the gender imbalance caused by China's "one child" policy and the desirability in their culture of having a boy their population is unsustainable, and so is any future they have as a "super power," we're in much better shape in that respect.

I read in the Economist that in some regions in China men outnumber women 2-1.
 

numble

Member
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
Construction comprises 60%* of the China's GDP, and consumption rates in china are falling. That means the vast majority of their economy relies on construction of property that people cannot/will not use, and are using less and less of.

* According to some economists. I remain skeptical, but it is nonetheless a large portion of their economy.

Edit: This is a good piece on the problems facing the chinese economy related to construction.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2010/11/17/chanos-vs-china/
Chanos is the only one out there saying that. I really doubt that construction is 60% of its GDP.
ElectricBlue187 said:
True but mostly because they've never had any of those things. Sure, it would be nice if the US would spend it's tax money to modernize everything but we already have more roads and stuff than everybody so while there are serious infrastructure problems that need solving in the US we aren't quite in the same position as China. We're in a better one I think.
I just spent half a year living in China and am now living in NYC after a short bit in Los Angeles. The roads, airports, and subways are much better in China. And the train networks are much better than Amtrak. I rode the "express train" from Beijing to Hong Kong and it took 25 hours (faster than any equivalent train trip in the US), if I go back in a year, there's going to be a high speed train that does it again in 9 hours.
 

Gaborn

Member
crimzonflame said:
I read in the Economist that in some regions in China men outnumber women 2-1.

yep, and, honestly, if that was REVERSED China's future would look really bright in terms of sustainability. A lot of their economic growth is aided by their essentially unlimited supply of people. That's going to come to a screeching halt in a few decades and they're going to be in DEEP trouble. Just like we are getting into for a bit with the baby boomers, but at least in OUR case there is the prospect of them dying off and relieving the pressure in the relatively near term, and our imbalance isn't systemic.
 

JoeBoy101

Member
crimzonflame said:
I read in the Economist that in some regions in China men outnumber women 2-1.

That little bit of social structuring on the Chinese leadership's part is going to end up kicking their ass in a way that will even make Iranian leadership wince and go, 'Allah man, you really fucked up.'
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
for anyone interested, The Economist has recently run a very good series of articles analyzing various aspects of the US-China relationship. they're well worth a read.
 
numble said:
Chanos is the only one out there saying that. I really doubt that construction is 60% of its GDP.

I just spent half a year living in China and am now living in NYC after a short bit in Los Angeles. The roads, airports, and subways are much better in China. And the train networks are much better than Amtrak. I rode the "express train" from Beijing to Hong Kong and it took 25 hours (faster than any equivalent train trip in the US), if I go back in a year, there's going to be a high speed train that does it again in 9 hours.

He's not the only one, and like I said, even I am skeptical, but there's is some truth to the point he's raised. You can't deny that there are basically huge swaths of unpopulated land in china.

My brother lived in china for about a year and a half or maybe two years, and he has two bachelors, East Asian Studies and International Business and works as an investment banker. He's explained a lot of the stuff going on there to me but it's hard to really condense it all. I haven't actually heard his take on the construction bubble going on there, but I should probably give him a call and see what he thinks, because he's probably done a shitload more relevant research than I have.
 
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Deleted member 17706

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MrHicks said:
it isn't really "the rise of china" more so as "the return of china"

they were a pretty big deal in ancient times things just turned to shit for a while and now the dragon rises again hehe

I'm so sick of hearing people say this. Sure, ancient China was the major power in their region, but when did their influence ever spread across the globe? They got beat the hell down by multiple powers, and the China of today is very different than the various Chinese dynasties that have existed throughout history.
 

Zenith

Banned
ElectricBlue187 said:
It's a piece of crap compared to the F-22 from what I've heard from jet enthusiasts. It's not nearly as stealthy or manuverable

There's no way of knowing that from a few seconds of footage. You can only go by "it looks cheap".
 
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