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[MrAngryFace]

Sure, it lacks hardcore wesley, but the seasons main arc SO represents the theme of the show and Angel as a character. I thought the revelations given near the end of the season were really handled well without being over the top stupid. The lesson also supports the seemingly abortive ending of season 5.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I think 4 and 2 were the best.

If i had to pick the order i would go with 4=2>1>5>3. Season 2 was really great cause of that scene where Angel Burns DArla and Dru, I dont think he has ever been as badass as he was in that season.

 

[android]

No Amy Acker.

 

[Tabris]

No.

4 is the best season of Angel.

Goes like this...

Season 04
Season 05
Season 01
Season 03
Season 02

05 and 01 could be swapped. 4 is absolute.

Actually I may want to swap 03 and 02.

All seasons are amazing though.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Nah, not for me. I loved S2 (I love Darla, so...), but the later ones win for me.

In fact it goes 5 = 4 > 3 = 2 >>>>>>>>>>> 1

I have to say though, I love that scene where Darla asks Angel for him to turn her into a vampire again. In fact, I think that episode was actually called Darla. Let me look.

Yep:

Angel: "It's gonna be okay."

Darla gives him a smile: "I knew you'd help me. Now if I could only get to you. - Funny. That's why they brought me back - to get to you. - Now I find I need you, just as I've always needed you. - You'll make the pain stop, won't you?"

Angel: "Takes time."

Darla: "Takes moments. (Shakes her hair back and exposes her throat) Do it - now."

Angel stares at her throat, stands up and backs away from her.

Angel: "What?"

Darla follows him and grabs him by the front of his shirt.

Darla: "Make me what I was again!"

Angel: "Darla..."

Darla: "You said you'd help me!"

Angel backs away but she won't let go of him.

Angel: "I will. - I want to - but - not like this."

Darla: "Turn me back. God! I can't bear this pounding in my chest for another instant!"

Angel quietly: "It's gift. - Too feel that heart beat - to know, really and for once, that you're alive. - You're human again, Darla. You know what that means?"

Darla: "Of course I do. It means pain and suffering - and disease and death. - Look, I released you from this world once, I gave you eternal life. Now it's time for you to return the favor."

Angel backs away a step, just looking at her: "Favor - is that what you think? - You think you did me a favor? - You damned me."

Darla after a beat: "Fine. Fine then, if it's such a punishment, take out your revenge, pay me back! (Angel just looks at her) - Please."

Angel swallows and shakes his head ever so slightly: "I can't."

It's that moment when he says she damned him. He has tears in his eyes, she doesn't even understand what she did. And then her response as she pauses and realises...what a class episode.

 

[Bauer Action Hour]

I thought Season 2 was excellent, but prefered S4 due to the impending doom, season long arc.

My rankings for the seasons:

S4
S2
S3
S5
S1

All of them were at least good to me, unlike Buffy where I thought S1 was bad and S7 lacking.

 

[Tabris]

While that moment was amazing, probabaly second best in that season.

My favorite moment of season 2 was the...

Cordelia: You have to change the way you've been doing things. Don't you see where this is taking you?
Wesley: Listen to her. Right now, the three of us are all that's standing between you and real darkness.
Gunn: You best believe that man.
Angel: I do. You're all fired.

 

[Matrix]

My Angel season ranking is...

Season 4
Season 5
Season 2
Season 3
Season 1

Then again I hate ranking them,I love the show so much.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Seems opinions are wildly varied.

For me, S5 is great because it did monster of the week perfectly. It has some amazing episodes and writing, and brought in Illyria (for a while), who in a short time managed to rise to one of my favourite Buffy/Angel characters.

S4 is great for different reasons. Well, the writing is still excellent, but it's the conitnuing arc which makes it so different from S5. You have evil Cordy, Connor going insane, Wesley sleeping with the enemy, the Beast, Jasmine and the turn around to give us a Big Good, Faith, Angelus...great stuff.

S1 sucks because it got monster of the week all wrong. Still some good episodes though.

 

[Tabris]

The Angel/Faith episodes, the series intro and season finale and the fact it had Doyle all make season 1 so so good.

Doesn't get enough respect around these parts.

Plus I Will Remember You! Tragedy at it's finest/worst.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Angel/Faith = excellent
Series intro = meh
Season finale = decent
Doyle = one of the main reasons it sucked
I Will Remember You = superb (though still doesn't get into my top 10, sorry S1)

 

[Kabuki Waq]

The first Episode of Angel was Brilliant and Doyle i thought was a great character. I enjoyed the small scale of season 1 one gave it more of a family feeling. It was also the lightest season out of the 5 and i really enjoyed the comedy aspects......oh and also the spike episode rocked.

 

[Tabris]

Series intro = meh
Season finale = decent
Doyle = one of the main reasons it sucked

Doyle was great, there was nothing bad about Doyle. Wesley gelled with the cast better, but Doyle is still one of the better characters on Angel. Much better than Fred and Gunn.

 

[Mama Smurf]

My problem with Doyle was that he was just a nothing character. His efforts with Cordy never came close to capturing me, his demon side was boring especially as it was just a lamer version of Angel and he wasn't that funny. I know he was meant to be funny, and if he had been then fine, but the show got so much funnier with the introduction of Wesley. Especially the Wesley/Cordy dialogue.

A few years after S1, I found out that Doyle was only invented because they couldn't get the character who played Whistler to join the show (don't recall why). For those who don't remember, Whistler is the guy who turns up in Buffy S2 and helps her out, I think he found Angel and showed him for the first time Buffy too. He was a demon who's job it was to ensure the balance between good and evil stayed in line. Now that sounds interesting, I wish they could have got him instead. You know at some point he'd have to betray Angel to keep the balance, and he'd have to fight the growing companionship he felt as he's meant to keep things even.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Whistler sux. I also hated his 'two rounds with a fruit fly line' Stupid.

Doyle was ok, Season 1 ruled for the Faith eps and the season finale. Oh, and She, cause the dancing was hilarious.

2 had some of the best moments, the arc was weird at times but I think episodes like anniversary and reprise were key in defining angel as character and propelling him towards being a true champion.

 

[Mashing]

No Amy Acker.

I agree

A Hole in the World is the best episode in the entire series, barely edging out I Will Remember You.

The tragic episodes are always the best. The Angel writing crew really knew how to handle tradegy.

 

[Drinky Crow]

2's my fave, followed by 3. 2 is just a fucking crucible of pain for Angel, and the torching of Darla/Dru just spectacularly caps off one of the most fucked-up relationships in TV writing. The arc is perfectly paced and hits all the right notes, balancing humor with some really dark material that's less comicbook and more human. The journey to Pylea bit at the end is just good-natured fluff that balances out all of the time the audience has spent in the emotional wringer. Plus, DARLA: they took a piece of castoff Buffy Season 1 detritus and turned her into a real three-dimensional villain. Also, the Lindsey/Lilah duality at W&H gets good play.

4's may be my least fave so far. It had too much of that angsty fop Connor, preggo Cordy, and the poorly-plotted debacle that was the Beast/Jasmine arc. The high points -- Wesley's crazy-ass relationship with Lilah, Faith's redemption, and the "zombies inna high-rise" episode -- were fantastic, but the Connor development was so redundant and predictable it became overbearing. And really, let's face it, the Beast/Jasmine arc wias so utterly perforated with plotholes it almost didn't seem like a Whedon series -- were latter series X-Files writers penning the scripts when Joss wasn't looking? Season 4 feels like a Buffy season: more comicbook drama and two-dimensional theatrics than depth.

3's great, but they didn't run with Holtz like I'd hoped. Still, the damnation of Wesley and his rebirth as "hardcore Wesley" is really memorable. Plus BEST SEASON CLIFFHANGER EVER.

Haven't seen 5 yet. Can't wait, either; it sounds great.

1's fun, but it's a little too Buffy. Doyle sucks -- he's a non-character. Wesley had far more potential. The Faith eps, rock, though. Eliza Dushku's such a solid actress AND convincing as an action hero, to boot (quite unlike Sarah Michelle Gellar).

 

[Mama Smurf]

the poorly-plotted debacle that was the Beast/Jasmine arc....And really, let's face it, the Beast/Jasmine arc wias so utterly perforated with plotholes it almost didn't seem like a Whedon series -- were latter series X-Files writers penning the scripts when Joss wasn't looking?

What were the plotholes? I'm not saying they don't exist, I just can't think of any off hand.

If there are any, don't blame the writers. Jasmine was never planned, Cordy was going to be the big bad. Then Charisma Carpenter went and got pregnant and fucked everything up.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Well, that would explain it. And I'm not complaining about getting to see several eps worth of Gina Torres, either.

The Cordy is Evil thing was just poorly executed -- the post-Angelus scenes of her trying to retroactively explain her behavior seemed really contrived. The Beast was a huge red herring, and not of the clever Joss red herring variety we were used to. He appeared, did a pointless ritual, kicked W&H ass, apparently had some connection to Angelus, and BOOM HERE'S JASMINE PREACHING PEACE AND LOVE. The Beast as a harbinger of her arrival was a total non-sequitur.

Why'd The Beast need to kill W&H and take their power? In the end, outside of a couple remarks from the characters, why was he even needed to usher Jasmine into the world? He starts an apocalypse -- which would be completely against Jasmine's modus operandi -- and then hangs around waiting for Angelus to pwn him. WTF. Why was Skip in league with Jasmine? As the sole representative of whatever force wanted to evil-fy Cordy -- Jasmine? -- he did a pretty shitty job explaining his actions. OH BOY BILLY WAS A RUSE. Way to drag a previously unrelated episode in just so you can write funny Skip dialogue, writers!

My wife actually has a specific list of complaints about the Beast/Jasmine arc, so I'll bug her for details.

 

[Mama Smurf]

You're sort of jogging my memory here...what bothered me...oh yeah. I remember. I didn't like it when the explanation for all the evil that went on with Cordy and the Beast was birth pains. It's not a plot hole as such, just lame. I don't know what else they could have come up with, but if they'd thought about it long enough, I'm sure they could have.

I can ignore that though, because I just love the way they turned the season on it's head. It gets darker and darker with ever more evil deeds and more dangerous bad guys and then...WHAM! You're faced with a good guy. Totally unexpected and kept Angel from going down the Big Bad route that I'm so happy they avoided throughout (not that it's bad in Buffy, just doesn't fit Angel). I just wish they'd planned it from the start so the inconsistencies weren't there.

Why'd The Beast need to kill W&H and take their power?

Well Jasmine wouldn't have wanted W&H to exist. And if we look at it from evil Cordy's POV instead, that's a strong rival out of the way.

In the end, outside of a couple remarks from the characters, why was he even needed to usher Jasmine into the world?

It's pretty clear this was meant for Cordy's storyline and not Jasmine, but you can explain it away (not in a great way) by saying the blocking out of the sun etc. was just the way things had to be for Jasmine's birth. Just a massive ingredient for a massive spell if you like.

He starts an apocalypse -- which would be completely against Jasmine's modus operandi -- and then hangs around waiting for Angelus to pwn him. WTF.

I think Coredlia had different plans for the Beast and he wasn't done yet. That' why she tried to make Angel work for her when he killed the Beast, she needed someone to do that stuff. For Jasmine...I don't know.

If you really want to complain about the Beast and plotholes, you might want to ask why he'd make a dagger of his own flesh for no apparent reason.

Why was Skip in league with Jasmine?

I don't think there's any hole here. Some people just work for others. I'm sure there were benefits for working with a Power That Is.

As the sole representative of whatever force wanted to evil-fy Cordy -- Jasmine? -- he did a pretty shitty job explaining his actions. OH BOY BILLY WAS A RUSE. Way to drag a previously unrelated episode in just so you can write funny Skip dialogue, writers!

Oh I don't know, I quite liked the way they brought the seasons together and can be used to explain a couple of things we hadn't had explained before. Like just why Cordelia was chosen as a higher power and how Angel returned from hell (not that he said that one, I just like to join the dots).

 

[MrAngryFace]

You gotta admit tho, the destruction of W&H was a cool episode.

 

[Drinky Crow]

But Jasmine obviously WASN'T a good guy -- the audience wasn't even remotely duped. It might've been clever if they'd done it subtly: say NOT make drastic personality changes in the characters from the get-go due to mind control; NOT show a bunch of nasty shots of Jasmine's rotting face; NOT immediately have some guy at the bowling alley freak out.

We just get an anti-climax; a villain who outside of Gina Torres fundamental hotness is actually less palpably threatening than her dubiously-connected minion and whose potentially cool hook -- she can sacrifice a few humans to guarantee eternal happiness for the world -- is diminished by a hokey visit to her previous world and a loopy comic book end battle. It coulda -- and SHOULD'VE, by the previous standards of Joss' work -- been so much better. It took the dark humanity that made Seasons 2 and 3 so memorable and Marvelized it. It was, for most of a season, Chris Claremont's Angel.

 

[Drinky Crow]

MAF: Fuck yeah it was. The Faith vs. Angelus eps are great, too.

Not saying Season 4 is bad -- it's actually superb by the standards of most TV sci-fi writing -- but it's by far the weakest Angel season overall (excluding 5 which I haven't seen). Season 4 is a lot of spectacular moments -- W&H going boom, Faith's redemption, Wesley and Lilah, Fred and Gunn on the rocks, that lightning chick hotty -- connected by a really poorly-conceived plot arc.

Also, CORDY AND CONNOR DO IT. ICK ICK ICK!

 

[Mama Smurf]

But Jasmine obviously WASN'T a good guy -- the audience wasn't even remotely duped. It might've been clever if they'd done it subtly: say NOT make drastic personality changes in the characters from the get-go due to mind control; NOT show a bunch of nasty shots of Jasmine's rotting face; NOT immediately have some guy at the bowling alley freak out.

We just get an anti-climax; a villain who outside of Gina Torres fundamental hotness is actually less palpably threatening than her dubiously-connected minion and whose potentially cool hook -- she can sacrifice a few humans to guarantee eternal happiness for the world -- is diminished by a hokey visit to her previous world and a loopy comic book end battle. It coulda -- and SHOULD'VE, by the previous standards of Joss' work -- been so much better. It took the dark humanity that made Seasons 2 and 3 so memorable and Marvelized it. It was, for most of a season, Chris Claremont's Angel.

...well that's the whole point of Jasmine! Her existence did the world a hell of a lot more good than her absence. To me, that makes her a good guy. Yet because she had to kill a few people to give the rest happiness, the Angel team faced a dilemma.

I wouldn't have wanted it to be subtle. It would ruin most of the creepy factor, which is what that whole Jasmine thing did best (creep me out).

She might not have been as threatening as the Beast, but I don't mind that. It's the way she fucked up the angel characters that made her worth it to my mind. I also don't like stories where they try to top the previosu season/book/whatever each time with bigger battles and nastier enemies. Eventually all you're doing is writing in ridiculously over the top odds and things get less interesting. I say let them mix it up.

Oh, I've edited my above post if you haven't noticed. And Cordy was under Jasmine's influence when she slept with Connor (she says something to him that slips my mind, but it's the same thing evil Cordy keeps saying for the rest of the season), which makes it more reasonable.

 

[Tabris]

Man, it's like total opposites.

I quite liked the Jasmine arc. Well more Conner's development during that arc.

Especially near the end of "Peace Out" (second to last episode)

While I hated early Conner, and hated gross Conner/Cordy, I really liked the character he became.

Conner is the physical representation of Angel's "Shanshu". It's just so tragic that even his "reward" for "the fight to redeem himself" is tainted by his past (Holtz), and he has to make the ultimate sacrifice, giving his chance of ever being as human as he can be (being a father was his reward), to save the one he loved.

He's done something similar before. It's just fucking tragic. Giving up being with the one you love so you could save her. Then giving up being a father and "reward" for everything you've fought for, to save him.

At least all in my opinion. I'm kinda in a rush, so my opinion and theories are very incoherant, I'll come back and clean it up.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Are you the guy who thinks Angel fullfilled the shanshu through Connor? Someone on this board does, and looking at that comment, it's probably you.

I still despise that theory.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I think Coredlia had different plans for the Beast and he wasn't done yet.

But there's the rub: Cordy still had a lot of legitimate "good Cordy" moments after her return before she turned into Evil Cordy. Her transformation was really rather abrupt and seemed far too convenient. Was Jasmine controlling her -- and if so, what was the point of unleashing Angelus when she knew he'd kill The Beast? At that stage in the plot, making Cordy evil was pretty pointless -- she coulda nailed Connor and birthed Jasmine without making her wicked; her entire transformation to evil was utterly pointless in terms of the overall plot progression. Yeah, it made for a cool revelation when they realized she killed the last keeper of those stone thingies, and yeah, finding out that she deliberately released Angelus made for a nice shocker, but in the end, it was an utterly wasted opportunity.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Angel gave up on redemption in Season 2, shanshu doesnt really matter by season 4 and 5, demostrated by Angel signing away Shanshu in 5.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Well, like I've said they were planning things to be different.

Cordy still had a lot of legitimate "good Cordy" moments after her return before she turned into Evil Cordy. Her transformation was really rather abrupt and seemed far too convenient.

Yeah, but she had plenty of good Cordy moments afterwards to the rest of the gang. Difference is, we were let in on the evil side of things after Lilah. They're not going to give us shots of her looking evilly at one of the others before that Lilah moment or it ruins the shock.

Was Jasmine controlling her -- and if so, what was the point of unleashing Angelus when she knew he'd kill The Beast?

Did she know he'd kill The Beast? I don't see how we can know that. As for why she freed him, she just wanted to free Angelus to keep the rest of the gang's attention off The Beast. Either that or she was worried about what Angelus might eventually tell them about The Beast if he stayed caged.

At that stage in the plot, making Cordy evil was pretty pointless -- she coulda nailed Connor and birthed Jasmine without making her wicked

Like I say, in a world of magic, we can't really say that Cordelia being evil wasn't required for Jasmine to enter the world. How about this explanation I just came up with (I quite like it):

The world needs balance. For someone to bring as much good as Jasmine does to the world to be born, there needs to be a period of horror to balance it out.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Maf you might wanna spoiler tag your post.


Anyways i really enjoyed season 4 up until jasmine. I thought all the episodes were awesome we got the wicked rooftop beast fight, we got ANGELUS!! we got faith and we got a great season finale. Yes Conner was one note angst and yes Jasmine was stupid, but everything before that was so awesome i dont mind overlooking it.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Angel gave up on redemption in Season 2, shanshu doesnt really matter by season 4 and 5,

Spoiler

demostrated by Angel signing away Shanshu in 5.

I don't agree with that. He gave up on it, sure, but then he got the hope back with Connor. Then he was losing it again by the time

Spoiler

he signed the Shanshu away

. Not completely though as he knew he'd saved Connor (even if he couldn't be with him), but he was willing to

Spoiler

sacrifice his chance to take down this power.

Still, watch the end of S1 (actually, it might be the start of S2) and see how happy Angel looks when Wesley tells him he might live again. Then go straight to S5 and

Spoiler

watch him sign it away without any hesitation

. Damn that guy's been beaten down.

As for Connor's teen angst...well...he is a teenager. And let's face it, he actually deserved to feel that way. This wasn't "god I hate the world for no reason" angst, this was the real thing. His life completely sucked.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

remember SPike sort of fucked up the whole vampire with soul business.

 

[Mama Smurf]

remember Spike sort of fucked up the whole vampire with soul business.

In what way?

 

[MrAngryFace]

Nah, his hope was in the chance that Conner could be with him in some sort of happy fashion. At the whole cradle stage of the game Angel was experiencing what a lot of real humans never get to.

Which leads to support the shanshu through conner thing. And its not about being beaten down, its about understanding his purpose. After season 2 he realized his purpose in the greater sense, which is the reason shanshu didnt mean as much to him.

He exists to fight and do right because he feels he must. He doesnt exist to seek any form of redemption because he knows none exists.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

In what way?

Spoiler

Spike was also a vampire with a soul so technically the prophecy could have been about him. There was a whole bunch of confusion i need to watch s5 again to make sure

 

[LakeEarth]

In what way?

In that the Shanshu could easily be for him. And

Spoiler

since Angel signed his away, I bet Spike would get it as a 'second place' prize.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Nah, his hope was in the chance that Conner could be with him in some sort of happy fashion. At the whole cradle stage of the game Angel was experiencing what a lot of real humans never get to.

How do you explain his reading of the Shanshu (remember Spike's reaction?) and his battle to try to get to the Cup of Torment first then? How about Soul purpose, the episode that explores his fears, almsot all of which focus on Spike taking his place and becoming human?

Which leads to support the shanshu through conner thing.

I hate this theory. It completely ignores S5 and all the Shanshu stuff which was there. If it was over, W&H would have no need to keep him alive anymore. Even if you say it was over but W&H didn't know, what about the world going wrong when Spike came back? Two vampire champions with a soul was the reason, if the prophecy was completed then the world doesn't fuck up.

And its not about being beaten down, its about understanding his purpose. After season 2 he realized his purpose in the greater sense, which is the reason shanshu didnt mean as much to him.

I guess, to a degree, but I still think he hoped for redemption even if he knew it was always out of his reach.

He exists to fight and do right because he feels he must. He doesnt exist to seek any form of redemption because he knows none exists.

He always seeks redemption. Constantly. But he also knows it doesn't exist for him. Fucked up, but realistic.

As for the Spike replies, I just don't see how it fucks anything up. It just adds another layer to the possibilities.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Nah, his hope was in the chance that Conner could be with him in some sort of happy fashion. At the whole cradle stage of the game Angel was experiencing what a lot of real humans never get to.

Which leads to support the shanshu through conner thing. And its not about being beaten down, its about understanding his purpose. After season 2 he realized his purpose in the greater sense, which is the reason shanshu didnt mean as much to him.

He exists to fight and do right because he feels he must. He doesnt exist to seek any form of redemption because he knows none exists.

Never thought about it that way seems pretty plausible, but yea basically you know by the end of it the series its just about "fighting the good fight" for him. He gives up on getting any sort of rewards.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Mama:

The deal with spike was pure competition. The instant he learned about Spike and Buffy in Buffy Season 7 the jealousy and childish attitude was already obviously there.

I think that blinded his ability to rationalize. Its the idea that despite what he believed even the smallest rumor that someone else could attain what he was so certain he could never reach was enough to send him on a certain path.

At his core Angel is still very human in that respect. And if Season 4 taught anything, its that you shouldnt trust a prophecy.

 

[Tabris]

Season 5 is him drifting. It's him with a conclusion (his story ends with Conner imo), but without tieing up all the loose ends.

Infact, the entire season, all of the characters are just tieing up lose ends, waiting for the play to end and the curtain to drop.

Spoiler

Angel's story ended with Conner. Wesley's story ended with Fred dieing, he was just drifting until he could be with Fred again. Spike's story ended with his sacrifice. Fred's story ended when she died. Cordelia's story ended at season 3's finale. Cordelia is the one that instruments the end of the play with her final vision.

At least that's my take on it.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Angel playing the part of shining, clean-faced hero wouldn't be Angel, anyhow; it's all his petty frustrations and poor life management skills that make him ROCK, and the fact that he always does the right thing in the face of the awful consequences is what makes him uniquely ANGEL. Angel the character isn't about compromise; he's about consequences and absolute ones at that. The Shanshu was a compromise, a future where he gets it both ways as a vampire and a hero, and that's a paradox someone as absolute as Angel can't tolerate. Angel doesn't get a life that's "fair"; he doesn't get happy endings, and he's used to it.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Mama:

The deal with spike was pure competition. The instant he learned about Spike and Buffy in Buffy Season 7 the jealousy and childish attitude was already obviously there.

I think that blinded his ability to rationalize. Its the idea that despite what he believed even the smallest rumor that someone else could attain what he was so certain he could never reach was enough to send him on a certain path.

At his core Angel is still very human in that respect. And if Season 4 taught anything, its that you shouldnt trust a prophecy.

There was a lot of competition with Spike, but I still just think he had some small hope of paying what he'd done. A tiny hope, one he really didn't even dare look at most of the time, but there. It's like what he says to Faith in S1:

"There is no real simple answer to that. - I won't lie to you and tell you that it'll be easy - because it won't be. - Just because you've decided to change doesn't mean that the world is ready for you to. - The truth is - no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past - you may never balance out the cosmic scale. - The only thing I can promise you is that you'll probably be haunted - and may be for the rest of your life."

Which is slightly more optimistic than what i think he was feeling, but close to there.

Oh I don't trust the prophecies. If there's a prophecy in Angel that looks clear cut, I assume that something different is going to happen. But the Connor theory...I just find it incredibly lame, quite aside from the fact that I don't believe it. And there's still the world breaking with two champion vampires thing which I can't see anyone easily explaining way.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Anything said pre-reprise is old-angel who doesnt understand the way things really work. While the talk to faith is appropriate for the situation, its still a viewpoint that is so very limited.

Generally when it comes to the conclusion of the series and its meaning I look only as far back as Reprise, sorta my rule of thumb. The attitude gained from that episode is what shapes most of his choices the rest of the series run.

 

[Tabris]

This is what Angel says to Faith in season 4...

ANGEL
Faith, get up! Are you listening?

FAITH
Angel, I'm dying.

ANGEL
Yeah. It's a lot easier than redemption, huh?

ANGEL
I'm not perfect, Faith. Even with a soul, I've done things I wished a thousand times I could take back.

ANGEL
Faith, wake up!

FAITH
I've rolled the bones. You for me.

ANGEL
I used to think that. That there'd be a point when I'd paid my dues.

ANGEL
Faith, listen to me. You saw me drink. It doesn't get much lower than that. And I thought I could make up for it by disappearing.

FAITH
I did my time.

ANGEL
Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything.

 

[MrAngryFace]

that last line rocks. Its so hardcore.

 

[Mama Smurf]

But Angel came back from that. Not fully, he was never the same, but the way he was in S2 he recovered from.

Actually, now I remember the exact circumstances, The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco dealt with this very matter. Spike asks Wesley about the Shanshu. Wesley tells him about it and Spike happens to mention that Angel has said it's a load of crap. Wesley goes to Angel and tells him it's vital he believes in it, it's the only thing that will sustain him (hope).

Then, at the end of the episode when he's seen what's happened to another hero (Number 5), he goes into Wesley's office and picks up the prophecy book. he whispers "Shanshu prophecy" into it and starts reading, the clear implication being that he's regaining his hope.

 

[Drinky Crow]

One of the eps on the Firefly disc -- Objects in Space, I think -- has Joss talking a lot about his philosophy and the influence he took away from the modern philosophical novel "Nausea". In it is the idea that morality is grounded in action, and that souls aren't really satisfied unless in motion. I think that's true in Angel, too; Angel's ONLY really himself when he's fighting the evils of his past and present, and his redemption -- if it exists -- only occurs when he's in motion. There's no big prize or payoff because he's living his salvation: the chance to do right even if it hurts and to remain in this world as Angel, alive and feeling the movement of his soul.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Yes but Wesley is also batshit insane in Season 5.

There is an importance in hope, in the chance, but I think the fact that he signed it away so easily shows that it still wasnt a driving force any longer, just something he was willing to consider at the advice of a friend. That was a good ep btw.

Not gonna throw away three seasons of his attitude because he picked up a book at the end of an episode.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

But Angel came back from that. Not fully, he was never the same, but the way he was in S2 he recovered from.

Actually, now I remember the exact circumstances, The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco dealt with this very matter. Spike asks Wesley about the Shanshu. Wesley tells him about it and Spike happens to mention that Angel has said it's a load of crap. Wesley goes to Angel and tells him it's vital he believes in it, it's the only thing that will sustain him (hope).

Then, at the end of the episode when he's seen what's happened to another hero (Number 5), he goes into Wesley's office and picks up the prophecy book. he whispers "Shanshu prophecy" into it and starts reading, the clear implication being that he's regaining his hope.

Spoiler

I dont think he ever completrly gave up onthe prophecy ....which makes his sarcrifice of the prophecy at the end of season 5 all the more selfless. The last episode was like a mission statement for the whole series the way i see it

 

[Mama Smurf]

Wesley wasn't insane by episode 6. In fact, compared to the last couple of seasons, S5 had treated him pretty well up to that point (S7 is where he starts to lose it).

Isn't it cooler to look at things this way? That Angel had REAL hope at the start of S2. He completely lost it part way through that season, never really regained it (he went up and down depending on events in his life), but actualyl started to in S5. I think it's coolor for him to sign away something he actually think might happen than something he doesn't even believe in. I mean, if it's nothing then I don't think it's nearly as powerful.

I have no doubt that if there had been further seasons and we'd actually seen Angel turn human, it wouldn't have been the happy ending you might expect.