• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Angel Season 2 - Best Season of Angel?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think it's coolor for him to sign away something he actually think might happen than something he doesn't even believe in.

I don't; in fact, I think of it as a big "fuck you" to The Powers That Be, telling them that prophecy and destiny don't mean shit to him: he's a working class hero who simply DOES THE JOB AS BEST HE CAN and management can fuck itself if it isn't gonna work with him. Plus, Angel isn't really that selfless; sure, he fights demons and interdimensional baddies for the good of us all, but in the end his faith lies with himself, not some indeterminate future penned by superbeings that seem to get more wrong than right. In Angel's mind, it's more important that he get the chance to save the world by his own actions and designs than those of the "Sky Bullies (tm Joss)" who always let him down. He's not a martyr; he's just a practical, slightly selfish hero who prefers to live and fight again.
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
I just assumed he signed away the prophecy because he accepted that he was going to die anyway. He clearly had given in to that idea, so the prospect of some future reward wasn't really a factor. I suppose that can be looked at as a lack of hope, but that's not really how I saw it.
 

Shouta

Member
I've never liked the whole Shanshu through Connor theory despite it making sense. It always felt like there was something bigger planned for the Shanshu prophecy and that because the series got cut at Season 5 pretty unexpectedly, they needed a way to close up some loose threads (hence the signing away of rights to the prophecy, which sorta seems tacked on to be honest) so it could be somewhat complete.

As for Angel Seasons, 2 > 3 > 1 > 4 = 5 for me.

A lot of the reason why I liked season 2 was what Drinky mentioned. The entire season was well-paced, a good mix of humor and dark material, and story that didn't feel comic-book like. It was also the culminating season for all the Darla/Dru/Angel story we had back from Buffy and it pulled it wonderfully. It was interesting and meaningful to the characters without getting all oddball and ancient prophecy-esque.
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
Well I completely disagree with you there. I don't want to ruin S5 for you, but at that stage giving a fuck you to TPTB wouldn't actually make any sense, and signing away nothing is...well, nothing. Signing away hope is something, more than something.
 

fart

Savant
spoilered for those who haven't seen s4 (of course no one else is spoiler tagging BUT LEAD BY EXAMPLE
i skimmed most of the thread so sorry if someone has already pointed this out, but "what happened" to season 4 was CC got pregnant. that completely threw off the plot that season. they had to write her pregnancy in, and voila, you get jasmine et al. (note: et al means 'and cordy + connor on a futon'. ew.)

anyways, my favorite is still s1, because i like my tv zany, corny, and irreverent, followed by 3, 5 and i guess 4. i haven't seen most of 2, but eh, whatever.
 

Vlad

Member
Well, for what it's worth, here's my take on the whole Jasmine thing, which seems to be a bit of a sticking point for some people...

As far as motives go, I've always felt that Jasmine was pretty up-front about what she actually wanted. She wanted to essentially be a god to the human race, but knew that as far as the numbers go, the human race would be better off. She just didn't place the same value on free will that we do. Unlike most of the other major villians in Buffy and Angel, Jasmine didn't consider herself as evil. The Mayor, Angelus, W&H, Darla and Drusilla, The First, etc were all evil and they knew it. The Initiative was a little more of a grey area, but once it got out of control and Adam came into the picture, it fell firmly in the "bad" camp. Glory was pretty much evil and insane, but her major motive was that she just wanted to get back home. She had no interest in taking over/ending the world, or anything along those lines.

The Jasmine storyline was a nice change of pace from the usual "evil being trying to end the world" storyline.

While it was never said as much, I always pegged Evil Cordy's actions as a combination of distraction and preparation. Cordy needed to be able to get close enough to Connor to get pregnant by him, and she needed to carry the baby to term without Angel, Inc getting involved. All the events that Cordy put into action kept the good guys off balance long enough for her to give birth. If they weren't preoccupied with dealing with The Beast, the rain of fire, the lack of sunlight, etc, then they may have figured out what was really going on. As is, they were content to let Cordy just hang out in her room while they dealt with other matters.

As far as the preparation goes, think back to when AI first met Jasmine. The first thing she had them do was to go on what amounted to an anti-demon crusade. Judging by this, I always figured that Jasmine's powers only worked on Humans, or at least any being with a soul (seeing as Lorne was converted), in our dimension. She knew that once her followers grew in number, the smarter demons would most likely try and band together to stop her. This is also why she had The Beast take out W&H. The Beast could have just gone straight to the White Room and taken out the conduit, but he instead systematically slaughtered every W&H employee (Lilah mentioned that he even took out the people who were out sick that day). Jasmine knew that W&H would have been directly opposed to what she wanted to put together, so had them completely taken out.

As far as reviving Angelus, think back to "the answer is among you". The entire AI team clung to that and started trying to make connections to everybody. Once they started being suspicious, Cordy knew that if they managed to determine that nobody else could fit the saying, then they may start looking her direction and putting the pieces together. Conveniently "remembering" her memories from her higher plane right as The Beast scored yet another major victory by blotting out the sun made everybody completely focus their attention on Angel, and Cordy knew that Angel wouldn't remember The Beast, since she erased all mention of him in all of the records and memories in our dimension. She knew that one of the AI people would have the bright idea that Angelus may know something, and that they'd be desperate enough to try anything at that point.

Now, as far as The Beast goes, it's entirely possible that Jasmine's powers wouldn't have affected him, and he would have most likely tried to kill her as soon as she was born. Of course, since she had the knife he made, she could have killed him herself before she was born (bringing back the sun and killing any vampires in the area that happened to be outside, too). However, it soon became clear to her that even though she stole Angel's soul, there were holes in her plan. She seemed to know that what Willow was going to try would work while Willow was still figuring it out, so I'm guessing that she knew that stealing the Muo-Ping would only be a temporary setback to AI, at best. The only thing she could do to keep the attention off her would be to release Angelus. I'm guessing that she never wanted to recruit Angelus, only keep him busy so that he wouldn't harm her. She had no way of knowing that he'd end up killing The Beast (she really should have held on to that knife...), but when it did happen, she then tried to get Angelus to do her dirty work, and once that fell through, she ended up with Connor.

Papa Smurf said:
Oh I don't trust the prophecies. If there's a prophecy in Angel that looks clear cut, I assume that something different is going to happen. But the Connor theory...I just find it incredibly lame, quite aside from the fact that I don't believe it. And there's still the world breaking with two champion vampires thing which I can't see anyone easily explaining way.

Uhh, the events in Destiny were set up by Lindsey and Eve. The Cup of Perpetual Torment was a complete fake, and all of the other events could have been put into motion by Lindsey. We saw that he gained a good amount of magic knowledge after he left in S2, and it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to figure that him and Eve set up the crazy bleeding eye thing, the wacky phones, and the temporary disconnection from the White Room. Also, given that Lindsey could just waltz into W&H due to his tatoos, he could have easily done something to their copy of the Shanshu prophecy to make it reflect his plan, or have whoever try and translate it read it wrong.

Judging by L&E's plan later in the season, the idea was to get Angel to start doubting himself and his role as the vampire in the prophecy to make him an easier target later on.
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
It's Mama, thanks.

Yeah, I know that. But I don't believe that all that happened was Lindsey's doing. He started it certainly, and he knew what would happen when he did it, but as far as I'm concerned his and Eve's involvement is limited to Wesker/The Cup of Perpetual torment and recorporialising Spike. Lindsey knew what would happen if he put two vampires with souls who are champions in the world, so he did it, but I don't think that he and Eve pulled off the rest, just took advantage of it.

The main reason I think that is that it's way, way, WAY too risky for Eve to say that's what happened and that the Senior Partners had managed to put a temporary solution in place, what with Gunn's then close connection to the conduit. It's one thing to bring Spike back and claim no knowledge as to how it happened, it's along the same lines to plant Wesker and the cup and have him disappear and say no one knows where he is or what he was doing, but it's quite another to say the Senior Partners have dealt with something if they haven't. That's a great way to get caught.
 

Vlad

Member
Mama Smurf said:
It's Mama, thanks.

Whoops, sorry about that. I copied/pasted your text for quoting, but just figured I'd write your name from memory. I guess after typing the previous mess I was a little tired...

Mama Smurf said:
Yeah, I know that. But I don't believe that all that happened was Lindsey's doing. He started it certainly, and he knew what would happen when he did it, but as far as I'm concerned his and Eve's involvement is limited to Wesker/The Cup of Perpetual torment and recorporialising Spike. Lindsey knew what would happen if he put two vampires with souls who are champions in the world, so he did it, but I don't think that he and Eve pulled off the rest, just took advantage of it.

The main reason I think that is that it's way, way, WAY too risky for Eve to say that's what happened and that the Senior Partners had managed to put a temporary solution in place, what with Gunn's then close connection to the conduit. It's one thing to bring Spike back and claim no knowledge as to how it happened, it's along the same lines to plant Wesker and the cup and have him disappear and say no one knows where he is or what he was doing, but it's quite another to say the Senior Partners have dealt with something if they haven't. That's a great way to get caught.

I actually just got finished watching Destiny about 30 minutes ago, and while I see where you're coming from, I'm still leaning towards my original theory. In the last scene of the episode, Eve says something along the lines of "throwing the universe out of whack, not as fun as you'd think". I always took that line to mean that Lindsey was directly responsible for the whole mess, but I could see how it was meant the other way, too.

The thing is, even though I agree about the Senior Partners having put the temporary solution in place, that still doesn't mean that Lindsey couldn't have caused the problem in the first place. He was pretty much invisible to the SP, and he could have easily cast the spell that made a mess out of everything, knowing that that the SP would be able to fix it eventually.
 
Season 4 wasn't entirely coherent, but I think there's enough there to make sense out of it.

I think Evil Cordy existed right at the end of "Spin the Bottle". It was a fragment in Cordy's mind that slowly began to take over. It implanted itself during her stint as a higher being, but going from a higher being back to a mere demon-ness resulted in the memory loss for both Cordelia and what ultimately ended up as Jasmine; Jasmine did not plan for that.

After "Spin" and before sex with Connor, you notice she tells Conner that she WANTED to tell Angel what she saw in her vision, but something she couldn't explain prevented her from doing so. This is evidence for my theory that Cordy WAS Cordy, but Jasmine had been in there all along gaining control. Jasmine was so diluted, though, that even the Beast didn't recognize her at first: he almost killed Cordy before he saw it. Jasmine is what compelled Cordy to sex up Connor. After she got pregnant, Jasmine was able to gain absolute control over her. I remember seeing more evidence for this theory, but I can't recall any instances off hand. Just a lot of small things that are seemingly insignificant to those not aware of what will happen later. I'll have to watch the episodes again.

The Beast, I think, was a way for Jasmine to kill off the biggest bads to make way for her arrival. The two rituals could have been ways to generate the power required for Jasmine's birth, like Mama Smurf said. Even after her birth, Jasmine required sacrafice to maintain her power; the Beast had to kill many people for the rituals to work (perhaps the rain of fire and the black sun were merely byproducts of these rituals and not the goals). There is a connection there.

So I don't really see any glaring holes in S4. It just doesn't hold your hand as much as it probably should have.
 
I forgot to address Cordy letting Angelus out. I think it was merely a way of killing Lilah and being able to blame it on Angelus. And hey, once he's loose, he's another guy that she may be able to control; someone who'd be willing to do things for her that Angel wouldn't.
 

fart

Savant
Tabris said:
This is what Angel says to Faith in season 4...

ANGEL
Faith, get up! Are you listening?

FAITH
Angel, I'm dying.

ANGEL
Yeah. It's a lot easier than redemption, huh?

ANGEL
I'm not perfect, Faith. Even with a soul, I've done things I wished a thousand times I could take back.

ANGEL
Faith, wake up!

FAITH
I've rolled the bones. You for me.

ANGEL
I used to think that. That there'd be a point when I'd paid my dues.

ANGEL
Faith, listen to me. You saw me drink. It doesn't get much lower than that. And I thought I could make up for it by disappearing.

FAITH
I did my time.

ANGEL
Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything.
oh my god i loved that episode
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom