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Another feature cut from Longhorn

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Phoenix

Member
At this rate, what's going to be different about Longhorn and Windows XP.

These days, Microsoft seems to be saying more about what vaunted technologies will not make it into Longhorn than those that will. The latest casualty of pressure to get Longhorn out the door and into the hands of customers is Microsoft's new command line scripting shell, known as "Monad" or MSH (Microsoft Shell).
Monad was slated to replace the command line in Windows with an object-oriented technology that rivals shells found on Unix systems. Beta versions of the software have been available to testers since early Longhorn alpha releases, but now Microsoft is looking further down the road with Monad.

http://www.betanews.com/article/No_New_Command_Line_for_Longhorn/1118333463


This OS is bleeding features rapidly....
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Yeah, seriously. What's going to be the point of upgrading to Longhorn if they keep pulling features just for the sake of making a release date? Push it back, like a year, guys. I'll wait if it means getting a few of the features that were cut.
 

Crow

Member
yeah, anyone actually know what new features Longhorn is actually meant to come with? (apart from Avalon)
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
This OS isn't even close to release and it's already becoming a joke. Microsoft, just call the thing Windows XP SP3 and be done with it already...
 

Diablos

Member
Apple just scared the shit out of everyone, I think.

That being said, XP is a rock solid OS and will be for quite a few years to come. It would be wise for Microsoft to play Apple's game - you know, sit back, see what the fuck is going on and fine-tune your software along the way. Instead, they're pissing out features like a racehorse. I don't know what the rush is. When MS sells it, WHENEVER THAT MAY BE, they will come. Pretty stupid to pass up on all these new features... Windows will need to be as unique as it possibly can if it wants to put up a fight against Apple's intentions.
 

Macam

Banned
I'm not entirely sure what Microsoft is intending to do with Longhorn, but I think from a consumer perspective, there probably won't be any real noticeable differences with regards to these cuts. A lot of the cuts thus far have seemed to focus around some underlying changes and power user types of functions, and I think Longhorn will ultimately be a sufficient upgrade to most consumers: more media integrated functionality, a new visual interface, expanded search abilities, improved security (haha!), and so on. That said, I don't think most consumers are going to jump on this bandwagon for that alone and with the cuts (they charge an arm and a leg for their OS and consumers barely use AU as is), and I have to wonder whether businesses will follow suit at all. Unless Microsoft really does deliver on improved security and begins to leverage some other software packages, like Office and IE7 as being Longhorn-only compatible and worth the jump, Longhorn could prove to be a fizzle, in spite of the tremendous planned marketing.

This may be further compounded by the fact that by the time Longhorn's due, Apple will have Intel machines on the market and, according to the most recent WWDC, Leopard, the next OS X installment (10.5), will be ready for release around then. As it stands, Tiger's been winning over most critics as has OS X since Panther's release; and Apple has been aggressively rolling out software of late, as even 10.4.2 is already nearly done. Microsoft has a lot of work to do; you likely won't see me making the jump considering I'm partial to OS X, but I'm hoping Apple's recent momentum will spur Microsoft to do more on the software side....and that doesn't seem to be panning out at the moment.
 

maharg

idspispopd
MS has always done this, it's really not surprising. If their promises were worth anything, NT4 would have been OSX.
 

Macam

Banned
Link1110 said:
Are they still going to put that palladium DRM on longhorn? Or is that out too?

Palladium was a hardware feature if I recall correctly, but I believe they scrapped that idea in favor of actually selling units.
 

PizzaFarmer

Member

Macam

Banned
Not a whole of information there on Secure Startup, but it sounds like the equivalent of OS X's File Vault. Should be interesting to see MS' implementation.
 

PizzaFarmer

Member
Macam said:
Not a whole of information there on Secure Startup, but it sounds like the equivalent of OS X's File Vault. Should be interesting to see MS' implementation.
FileVault is good stuff, for sure, but it's designed around encrypting within a user account's home folder.

Before Tiger, the swap file on disk could not be encrypted by FileVault. A thief who stole your powerbook could connect your HDD into another machine, extract the swap file and search for a cached login password to sign in, bypassing FileVault.

A more subtle weakness in FileVault-like software methods of disk encryption is that anyone with physical HDD access can still read out partition, directory and file layouts from your "protected" drive. Do any file names or directory paths on your computer reveal secrets?

With full encryption of a HDD volume, every byte on the disk is protected.
 

Ponn

Banned
So who thinks they will jump on this out the gate? Or will you wait it out like people waited out windows ME? Besides a few complaint, mostly with having to call to auth my copy of XP, i really have no reason to upgrade to a new OS and I haven't heard of any features to entice me too.
 

Phoenix

Member
Ponn01 said:
So who thinks they will jump on this out the gate? Or will you wait it out like people waited out windows ME? Besides a few complaint, mostly with having to call to auth my copy of XP, i really have no reason to upgrade to a new OS and I haven't heard of any features to entice me too.


That is in fact Microsoft's biggest problem. It was the biggest uptake problem for Windows XP too. Lots of people were just fine with Windows ME and Windows 2000 and really didn't see any point in making the jump to XP. With Longhorn bleeding features, they are really going to have to focus on 'something' really new to get people to bite on a several hundred dollar upgrade.... either that or do what they seem to enjoy doing, start releasing software/features that aren't compatible with the old OSes.
 

Phoenix

Member
Wellington said:
Bleeding features? What else has it lost (Way out of the loop)?

The new filesystem has been cut (WinFS) altogether, Indigo (the communications layer) and Avalon/WinFX (the displayer layer) are being released for Windows XP, and they've dumped the .Net core. In essence, everything that people were looking at Longhorn for in terms of being a new OS is either cut, or will show up in XP.
 

Phoenix

Member
xsarien said:
Longhorn damage control already?

If we've learned nothing from this years E3, we've learned that Microsoft and its heaviest supporters now prescribe to the philosophy of 'damage control early and often'.
 

retardboy

Member
Phoenix said:
The new filesystem has been cut (WinFS) altogether, Indigo (the communications layer) and Avalon/WinFX (the displayer layer) are being released for Windows XP, and they've dumped the .Net core. In essence, everything that people were looking at Longhorn for in terms of being a new OS is either cut, or will show up in XP.

WinFX beta should be out in 2007? It was dumped from the OS, but you can use it if you want after the release. And so what if Avalon and Indigo are being released for Windows XP? That means nothing. It's still in Longhorn. Just because Avalon/WinFX are on XP doesn't mean it'll look like Longhorn. This was done for compatibility... I don't get your point in bringing those up. Also, Longhorn never had a .Net core. The core of Avalon and Indigo will be .Net, but the core of the OS was never .Net.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
retardboy said:
WinFX beta should be out in 2007? It was dumped from the OS, but you can use it if you want after the release. And so what if Avalon and Indigo are being released for Windows XP? That means nothing. It's still in Longhorn. Just because Avalon/WinFX are on XP doesn't mean it'll look like Longhorn. This was done for compatibility... I don't get your point in bringing those up. Also, Longhorn never had a .Net core. The core of Avalon and Indigo will be .Net, but the core of the OS was never .Net.
...so this means?

Agreed with Phoenix' post...there is no reason for me to upgrade to Longhorn (IMO) until some of these features are put back in...porbably at the first Service Pack. I was hoping that Apple's announcement was going to cause Microsoft to want their new OS to be as competative as possible...but all it seemed to do was scare them into dumping more for a quicker release =(
 

retardboy

Member
Gattsu25 said:
...so this means?

Agreed with Phoenix' post...there is no reason for me to upgrade to Longhorn (IMO) until some of these features are put back in...porbably at the first Service Pack. I was hoping that Apple's announcement was going to cause Microsoft to want their new OS to be as competative as possible...but all it seemed to do was scare them into dumping more for a quicker release =(

Some of these features are put back in? Only one was taken out and that's WinFX. Things get taken out of OSes all the time. This is what always happens. MS has a bunch of features that they'd like to include in the OS, but they can't include them all. They go in with a list of a thousands of features they want to include, but not all of them make it to the final. This happens when any OS. That includes OSX, it's just that Apple keeps a lid on things so that people don't know what been dropped.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
well ..atleast it will still have windows graphics foundation to replace directx,...I hope. Considering the xbox360 will have support for wgf 1.0 it seems certain the next windows OS will as well. This is still sad news..geez the os is already a year late, the new file system and now this...damn.
 

Phoenix

Member
retardboy said:
The core of Avalon and Indigo will be .Net, but the core of the OS was never .Net.

FALSE! Winhec 2003 Microsoft claimed that the OS would consist of a light kernel surrounded by .Net and all services of the OS would be based on .Net.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
retardboy said:
Some of these features are put back in? Only one was taken out and that's WinFX.
Also false. WinFS was another prominent feature planned for Longhorn that's not making the cut.
 

Phoenix

Member
retardboy said:
Some of these features are put back in? Only one was taken out and that's WinFX. Things get taken out of OSes all the time. This is what always happens. MS has a bunch of features that they'd like to include in the OS, but they can't include them all. They go in with a list of a thousands of features they want to include, but not all of them make it to the final. This happens when any OS. That includes OSX, it's just that Apple keeps a lid on things so that people don't know what been dropped.

Overpromise and underdeliver? Yeah I can see why people wouldn't be upset by that... especially the large number of corporate managers at WinHEC who were basing corporate strategy on many of the features that Microsoft was planning to offer.


:D
 

HyperionX

Member
Phoenix said:
FALSE! Winhec 2003 Microsoft claimed that the OS would consist of a light kernel surrounded by .Net and all services of the OS would be based on .Net.

Speaking of .Net, whatever the heck happened to it? I haven't heard about it in a while. In fact it seems to be that .Net is being drop off altogether given the lack of buzz around it.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Er... if you haven't been hearing about it, you haven't been listening much. MS is still pushing it pretty hard where it counts. That is, to developers of web and so-called "enterprise" applications.

The claims of the OS being built on it, whether MS made them or not, were always clearly bullshit to anyone with half a brain and any experience watching what MS does. MS always has and always will talk big and deliver incrementally.
 
Phoenix said:
The new filesystem has been cut (WinFS) altogether, Indigo (the communications layer) and Avalon/WinFX (the displayer layer) are being released for Windows XP, and they've dumped the .Net core. In essence, everything that people were looking at Longhorn for in terms of being a new OS is either cut, or will show up in XP.

Microsoft's ultimage goal with WinFS is very aggressive and probably not possible to roll out in a single release for any company. Apple and Microsoft seem to share the same end goal, Apple is just going about it incrementally and sometimes hacking stuff along the way. Microsoft would be better served to roll it out in a series of service packs or dot OS releases.
 

Phoenix

Member
maharg said:
Er... if you haven't been hearing about it, you haven't been listening much. MS is still pushing it pretty hard where it counts. That is, to developers of web and so-called "enterprise" applications.

And even they aren't hearing a whole lot about it. Microsoft marketing machine has died down in recent days. While there are some huge successes like HPs wanting to build the national ID system with .Net, for the most part the world seems to be sitting pretty with J2EE. Sun opening up the process and allowing shared development on the various APIs has helped them considerably.

The claims of the OS being built on it, whether MS made them or not, were always clearly bullshit to anyone with half a brain and any experience watching what MS does. MS always has and always will talk big and deliver incrementally.

Not really. .Net is just an object brokering layer like COM (.Net != C#). Windows XP uses a lot of COM services - heck DirectX is ALL COM. The move from a clean .Net architecture back to franken-hack is very disturbing because there are many things that .Net applications won't be able to get to without digging into the native stack. The continual life of Win32 API is a marked failure on Microsoft's part.
 

Pellham

Banned
Wow, and I was actually looking forward to Longhorn from the early previews that were released a few years ago, but with all these features being cut or put in XP...

Longhon = ME 2
 

maharg

idspispopd
Phoenix said:
Not really. .Net is just an object brokering layer like COM (.Net != C#). Windows XP uses a lot of COM services - heck DirectX is ALL COM. The move from a clean .Net architecture back to franken-hack is very disturbing because there are many things that .Net applications won't be able to get to without digging into the native stack. The continual life of Win32 API is a marked failure on Microsoft's part.

Everything that existed before COM is still not COM. Everything that was introduced as COM was introduced is usually a hybrid of some sort (see especially a lot of api additions in nt3.1 and 3.51). Everything introduced after COM was an established part of the OS (95 and NT) is based entirely on COM, but sometimes has some non-COM wrappers.

This is what I mean when I say delivered incrementally. If you expected .net functionality to be delivered any differently, I'm sorry, but you fell for hype. The logical continuation of the trend is obviously that new functionality will be delivered primarily to .net. Already we've had the hybrid stage with stuff like GDI+.

As for not being successful at getting the message out, I see a lot more demand for .net devs than I do for Java or C++. Part of that is being newer, obviously, and it may just be a local thing, but I think they're doing a pretty good job of getting it out there. Windows-centric businesses (of which there are a LOT) are taking .net right up the ass. Obviously the world will never switch entirely to it, and obviously it wasn't going to be instantaneous, but it's certainly not a dead proposition.
 

retardboy

Member
Hitokage said:
Also false. WinFS was another prominent feature planned for Longhorn that's not making the cut.


Yes, that was a typo. WinFX = WinFS in my posts. And Microsoft insists that .Net was never supposed to be the core of the OS, just the different things like Avalon and crap.
 

Phoenix

Member
maharg said:
Everything that existed before COM is still not COM. Everything that was introduced as COM was introduced is usually a hybrid of some sort (see especially a lot of api additions in nt3.1 and 3.51). Everything introduced after COM was an established part of the OS (95 and NT) is based entirely on COM, but sometimes has some non-COM wrappers.


Actually I'm not sure what you're saying here to be honest.


This is what I mean when I say delivered incrementally. If you expected .net functionality to be delivered any differently, I'm sorry, but you fell for hype. The logical continuation of the trend is obviously that new functionality will be delivered primarily to .net. Already we've had the hybrid stage with stuff like GDI+.

Actually i didn't fall for anything. I'm a happy Java developer. I just have to interface with Windows from time to time. It is actually a small part of my world. Nevertheless, what Microsoft promised was accessibility of all OS services through .Net. This is not the case, making .Net pretty pointless since you still have to support the old nasty APIs anyways. .Net has proven itself to be worthless as it doesn't solve any problems. At best it gave native Windows developers a standard way to write web services and nothing more.

As for not being successful at getting the message out, I see a lot more demand for .net devs than I do for Java or C++. Part of that is being newer, obviously, and it may just be a local thing, but I think they're doing a pretty good job of getting it out there.

Where are you located as I find that odd. In the major markets I see an almost 2:1 demand for Java developers as C# developers.
 

Phoenix

Member
retardboy said:
Yes, that was a typo. WinFX = WinFS in my posts. And Microsoft insists that .Net was never supposed to be the core of the OS, just the different things like Avalon and crap.

Yes, its called damage control.
 
are the major features cut from Longhorn not going to show up until Blackcomb, or will we get them back through Longhorn service packs, or what ?
 
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