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[Nerevar]

Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal said he thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement.

Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal said he thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement.

"In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star Game, so why we even talking an age limit?" O'Neal said.

The past two rookies of the year were drafted out of high school: The Cavaliers' LeBron James was the 2003-04 rookie of the year, while the Suns' Amare Stoudemire won the award after the 2002-03 season.

Players currently have to be at least 18 to be drafted, but NBA commissioner David Stern would like to see the age raised to 20.

"We are seeking to raise that to 20 or two years out of high school. The NFL's minimum age is 3 years after high school. I'm optimistic the union will agree to some raise in the minimum age in the current collective bargaining," Stern said in a recent ESPN.com chat.

The NBA's seven-year labor agreement expires after the season. The union originally opposed raising the current age limit of 18, but has begun to waver.

O'Neal doesn't agree with Stern's agenda, however.

"As a black guy, you kind of think [race is] the reason why it's coming up.

"You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. Army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?" O'Neal said.

If the NBA had the age limit Stern is proposing in 1996, O'Neal would have had to postpone the start of his NBA career.

O'Neal went to the NBA straight out of high school in 1996 and was drafted by the Portland Trail Blazers, who made him the 17th overall selection.

O'Neal didn't blossom into the star he is today until he was dealt to the Pacers during the 2000 offseason. He has made the past three Eastern Conference All-Star teams.

Of course, this is just another instance of whitey keeping the black man down.

Ignoring O'Neal's blatant lack of understanding of constitutionality, can someone please explain to me how this is racist? I mean, I'm guessing his logic is "all the people jumping straight to the pros were black, so Stern (whitey) must not want that ... ?" This is ridiculous, we need to make a "racism" law like a "godwin" law. If you bring up race in a completely unrelated context, you lose the argument. This change in the CBA would have prevented him from joining the league for two years after high school ... therefore it's racist against all black people. I guess it just demonstrates how self-centered and arrogant most NBA players are.



And I figured this was a seperate topic away from the NBA thread. If not, I guess mods can merge, but I think it deserves its own space.

 

[Alucard]

Argument FLAWED. This boy should take a critical thinking class.

 

[borghe]

I went for a McDonald's breakfast sandwich this morning. My cashier was black but the two cooks were both white.

TRYING TO KEEP BLACKEY OUT OF THE KITCHEN!!!!!! RACIST!!

 

[The Faceless Master]

i think what he means is that it's obvious who the change will affect more... or something like that... why did i try to explain this?

 

[AirBrian]

His comments just give further evidence that an age limit should be required.

 

[borghe]

why did i try to explain this?

because you want to believe that it really isn't the morons of the world who hold the majority of its wealth.

the nba is majority black. any change you make will affect more black players than non-black players. put in a max age, mostly blacks will be affected. put in tougher drug policies, mostly blacks will be affected. cut one out of every four players, mostly blacks will be affected. leave the minimum salary or put in a cap, mostly blacks will be affected.

so any negative thing done to the NBA is racist (according to him) because it is obvious that mostly blacks are affected.

I am not bashing you. just the thought train you posted which is likely where this idiot was going with his statement.

 

[ypo]

Always the victim.

 

[Days like these...]

What is Stern's reasoning for wanting to raise the age to 20? Did he just pull the idea out his ass or what? I'm guessing to make kids go to college and get an education?

Who cares if they get a college education. They'll have more money than most of us and that will be enough to get them through life. Unless of course the go and squander it all on CARS CLOTHES AND HOES !!! :lol and we all know an NBA player would never do that

 

[Phoenix]

What is Stern's reasoning for wanting to raise the age to 20? Did he just pull the idea out his ass or what? I'm guessing to make kids go to college and get an education?

If he wanted to do that he should go with 4 years after college, so that wouldn't seem to be his reason.

 

[Nerevar]

What is Stern's reasoning for wanting to raise the age to 20? Did he just pull the idea out his ass or what? I'm guessing to make kids go to college and get an education?

Who cares if they get a college education. They'll have more money than most of us and that will be enough to get them through life. Unless of course the go and squander it all on CARS CLOTHES AND HOES !!! :lol and we all know an NBA player would never do that

Well, the big thing that it does is it guarantees the NBA has, more or less, a farm system. Look at how the NFL uses NCAA football. I can think of a number of high school superstars who didn't pan out in the NCAAs (best example being Ronald Curry) and the NFL was able to recognize that by watching them in the NCAAs. The NBA doesn't have that and, consequently, the draft is a big gamble. Oftentimes it works out (LeBron, Garnett, etc.), but oftentimes it doesn't (Ousmane Cisse, that guy who was big into dog fighting).

Furthermore, LeBron is really the only player who did the prep-to-pro thing and was ready to compete right away. Pretty much every player took a few years to develop - (Jermaine O'Neal was drafted by the Blazers, but didn't become a star until he played at Indy), so these guys are being payed millions for "developing" their game at the next level. Stern wants to use the NCAAs for that.

 

[Justin Bailey]

Well, the big thing that it does is it guarantees the NBA has, more or less, a farm system. Look at how the NFL uses NCAA football. I can think of a number of high school superstars who didn't pan out in the NCAAs (best example being Ronald Curry) and the NFL was able to recognize that by watching them in the NCAAs. The NBA doesn't have that and, consequently, the draft is a big gamble. Oftentimes it works out (LeBron, Garnett, etc.), but oftentimes it doesn't (Ousmane Cisse, that guy who was big into dog fighting).

Furthermore, LeBron is really the only player who did the prep-to-pro thing and was ready to compete right away. Pretty much every player took a few years to develop - (Jermaine O'Neal was drafted by the Blazers, but didn't become a star until he played at Indy), so these guys are being payed millions for "developing" their game at the next level. Stern wants to use the NCAAs for that.

No you idiot it's because he's racist, duh.

 

[borghe]

nm.. I am dumb with bball.. nerevar seems to have a much better reason

 

[Days like these...]

so these guys are being payed millions for "developing" their game at the next level. Stern wants to use the NCAAs for that.

Who's fault is that? The league isn't obligated to pay millions straight out of highschool for some kid who might or might not turn out to be a superstar

 

[Nerevar]

Who's fault is that? The league isn't obligated to pay millions straight out of highschool for some kid who might or might not turn out to be a superstar

well of course they don't have to ... that's why he wants an age limit ....

 

[darscot]

I hate to say it but there is some racism in this issue. A lot of the reason they want to raise the limit is because they don't want all the poor black kids to do nothing in high school figuring they'll just go straight to the NBA. Far too many of them won't make it and the powers that be feel the kids just aren't smart enough to figure it out. In for example hockey it is a white sport and the powers that control it feel the kids are smart enough to be responsible for there own education so they don't have to be involved.

So it boils down to:

Basketball Poor Black Kid = Stupid we need to babysit and it’s cheaper for us if we force them to college ball were the kid gets nothing and the school makes a mint. If it doesn’t work out he were off the hook after all we made him go to college. It’s not our fault he took basket weaving.

Middel Class White Kid – Smart kid he can handle his own education. Very valuable worth every penny. If it dosen’t work the kid and his family will have a plan B.

How can you look at that and not see racism at some level.

 

[Nerevar]

I hate to say it but there is some racism in this issue. A lot of the reason they want to raise the limit is because they don't want all the poor black kids to do nothing in high school figuring they'll just go straight to the NBA. Far too many of them won't make it and the powers that be feel the kids just aren't smart enough to figure it out. In for example hockey it is a white sport and the powers that control it feel the kids are smart enough to be responsible for there own education so they don't have to be involved.

So it boils down to:

Basketball Poor Black Kid = Stupid we need to babysit and it’s cheaper for us if we force them to college ball were the kid gets nothing and the school makes a mint. If it doesn’t work out he were off the hook after all we made him go to college. It’s not our fault he took basket weaving.

Middel Class White Kid – Smart kid he can handle his own education. Very valuable worth every penny. If it dosen’t work the kid and his family will have a plan B.

How can you look at that and not see racism at some level.

Christ did you even read my post? This has nothing to do with racism, it has everything to do with money. Thinking otherwise is shortsighted and ignores the real reasons that the NBA wants this.

 

[borghe]

darscot - your entire theory falls apart on so may levels.

first, you are then assuming that he wants to filter black players out of the NBA.. Why would he want to? They are typically the better NBA atheletes. They are typically bigger draws. Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of attendance and ratings would know that removing better atheletes (who mostly happen to be black) from the game will hurt revenue.

second, nerevar's reasoning makes a LOT more sense. Being able to draft out of high school, there is NO farm system whatsoever. Get a 18 year old kid, pay him million of dollars, and watch him fall apart over the next few years. No you don't have to draft the kid or pay him millions of dollars, and that is really what we are talking about here, isn't it.

finally is it just me or are you actually making excuses for kids who don't try in high school hoping/expecting to make it right into the NBA? not only that but I think you called minorities dumber to a degree??? hmm.. I can't see a single downside to making them go to college for a few years. most will get scholarships, and those who don't (and are actually good) will make more than enough money in their first year to pay off any loans. and if they are too "dumb" to figure out how this system works, how about somebody educate them.... gee..

 

[darscot]

Yes I read your post and I dissagree on some level. Yes its about money. But it's about money in every sport. I didn't say I think black are stupid. I said the people running the sports think that. And forcing a kid to go to a college when you know his education isn't going to be worth shit only so you can save money is bullshit. They don't pull that shit with white kids why do they do it with black?

 

[Nerevar]

Yes I read your post and I dissagree on some level. Yes its about money. But it's about money in every sport. I didn't say I think black are stupid. I said the people running the sports think that. And forcing a kid to go to a college when you know his education isn't going to be worth shit only so you can save money is bullshit. They don't pull that shit with white kids why do they do it with black?

are you insane? The rule would force all kids to go to college (or some other league) for 2 years, not just blacks. The reason it doesn't exist for baseball is because they have a minor league that every single player plays in. NBA just wants to use the NCAA football model to guarantee they have a way to both develop young players without spending any money AND to evaluate players on a higher level. This has nothing to do with making sure young black players go to college, and frankly, I could guarantee you that 90% of the owners could care less about that (despite what the press releases say). Where the hell do you pull this idoitic "they don't do it with whites why make blacks do it huh huh" retardism from?

Edit: And don't even try to bring in hockey. Doing so belies your complete and total lack of understanding of the club system in Canada and how that also serves the same purpose as a farm system. Basketball is the only sport that doesn't have one, and they want one (for obvious reasons).

 

[Justin Bailey]

and neverar goes in for the kill

 

[darscot]

I know the owners dont care about the kids education it's all spin. Why dont they have a farm team for the NBA? Because they feel fuck it this kids aren't smart enought to figure it out. We'll just make them go to college. Look how much money there is in march madness? If we had a farm team we would have to actually pay them. If basketball players ever got smart they would refuse to play for college and demand a farm league that pays for your education. Kinda like they do for white kids in Jr. Hockey.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I hate to say it but there is some racism in this issue. A lot of the reason they want to raise the limit is because they don't want all the poor black kids to do nothing in high school figuring they'll just go straight to the NBA. Far too many of them won't make it and the powers that be feel the kids just aren't smart enough to figure it out. In for example hockey it is a white sport and the powers that control it feel the kids are smart enough to be responsible for there own education so they don't have to be involved.

So it boils down to:

Basketball Poor Black Kid = Stupid we need to babysit and it’s cheaper for us if we force them to college ball were the kid gets nothing and the school makes a mint. If it doesn’t work out he were off the hook after all we made him go to college. It’s not our fault he took basket weaving.

Middel Class White Kid – Smart kid he can handle his own education. Very valuable worth every penny. If it dosen’t work the kid and his family will have a plan B.

How can you look at that and not see racism at some level.

Nerevar's point is much more logical... why should stern care about their education.. he wants good ball players.. stars.. using college as a farm system, the way nerevar described would be a more efficient way to ensure you get the best players.

 

[darscot]

I agree it's about money. The NBA dosen't want a fram system beacuse why buy the cow when you get the milk for free. Everybody wins with college ball except the players. They really get shit out of it. The dont do this kind of thing to white kids. You see it allot with young black kids in both football and basketball. Hockey and Baseball have the farm system. No it isn't just a race issue but race is a factor in there some were. I don't think this NBA players view is 100% correct but part of what he is saying holds water. Yes I think a lot of these players are babies and cry race way to much but I still think racism exists in the sport.

 

[borghe]

I know the owners dont care about the kids education it's all spin. Why dont they have a farm team for the NBA? Because they feel fuck it this kids aren't smart enought to figure it out. We'll just make them go to college. Look how much money there is in march madness? If we had a farm team we would have to actually pay them. If basketball players ever got smart they would refuse to play for college and demand a farm league that pays for your education. Kinda like they do for white kids in Jr. Hockey.

lol.. at this point I concede that no matter what points are made, darscott will never agree it is anything but racism...

give it up guys. you can't argue with the illogical. :\

ironically, darscott has called the black kids stupid in like every post, and then backs it up with "That's what the league think, not me."

 

[darscot]

I think I've made my point. So I'm going to step out of this thread. I'm the one trying argue that racism exists and already the fingers are pointing at me as the racist. Like I tried to say money is a bigger factor racism is just the underlying issue were they seem to pull this more with the black athlete then they do the white.

 

[whytemyke]

I know the owners dont care about the kids education it's all spin. Why dont they have a farm team for the NBA? Because they feel fuck it this kids aren't smart enought to figure it out. We'll just make them go to college. Look how much money there is in march madness? If we had a farm team we would have to actually pay them. If basketball players ever got smart they would refuse to play for college and demand a farm league that pays for your education. Kinda like they do for white kids in Jr. Hockey.

You're right man... they'd have to pay all their players so this means they just hate black players, right?

I really can't stand this shit with the players thinking they're more powerful than they really are. Maybe if Jermaine O'Neal himself had gone to college he wouldn't spout off stupid things to the media everytime he has a microphone put in his face.

 

[whytemyke]

I think I've made my point. So I'm going to step out of this thread. I'm the one trying argue that racism exists and already the fingers are pointing at me as the racist. Like I tried to say money is a bigger factor racism is just the underlying issue were they seem to pull this more with the black athlete then they do the white.

:lol :lol :lol :lol
nerevar scared him off.

 

[Blackace]

ummm he never said race was the reason... the writer felt that is what he meant hence the [ ]

 

[borghe]

no, it singles out the black players because they would be too stupid to undertand the farm system. :lol :lol :lol

so then someone says "but why would black players be too stupid to figure out the farm system?" and darscot says "I'm not saying they would be, just that the nba thinks they are too stupid" so if they aren't too stupid, how would it affect them or be racist?

the entire argument is that the NBA is doing this out of racism, HOPING that all of the dumb black kids are too stupid to go to college or figure out how to get into the nba on their own... lol... yet because they aren't dumb (well, not usually) this would mean nothing to them. right darscot? Or do you think they ARE too dumb, and it will cripple them..

your hole is pretty deep man.. glad you stopped where you did (which was already too late).

 

[darscot]

Actually it was more borghe and the mods I got banned for several weeks before, simply for what everyone else said that I said and it wasn't what I meant at all. So I'm now I'm a little gunshy in threads about race. That and people think I'm a stubborn SOB already so I need to ease off a bit.

 

[borghe]

ummm he never said race was the reason... the writer felt that is what he meant hence the [ ]

actually [] is never a implication. it is used to replace a pronoun that references a noun outside of the quoted subject.

So if I said "Black Ace is the man. He told me to lay the smack down." If someone just quoted the second sentence it would be "[Black Ace] told me to lay the smack down." No guessing.

Guessing is just bad journalism.. especially in this type of context. not to mention he specifically mentions hockey and basketball (per quote), two predominantely non-black sports.

 

[AirBrian]

Nevermind, borghe covered it.

I know the owners dont care about the kids education it's all spin. Why dont they have a farm team for the NBA? Because they feel fuck it this kids aren't smart enought to figure it out. We'll just make them go to college. Look how much money there is in march madness? If we had a farm team we would have to actually pay them. If basketball players ever got smart they would refuse to play for college and demand a farm league that pays for your education. Kinda like they do for white kids in Jr. Hockey.

That's what college basketball is! You'd be surprised what bb players actually pay for.

 

[Nerevar]

I think I've made my point. So I'm going to step out of this thread. I'm the one trying argue that racism exists and already the fingers are pointing at me as the racist. Like I tried to say money is a bigger factor racism is just the underlying issue were they seem to pull this more with the black athlete then they do the white.

right, because they don't want those untalented, young black atheletes like Darko Milicic sitting on the bench, wasting a roster spot of a more deserving player who's already proven he can play. How much money is Detroit paying him again, and what return have they gotten on their investment?

 

[Blackace]

the use of brackets to enclose words or phrases that someone has inserted into an otherwise word-for-word quotation.

Therefore he never said race outright... am I wrong? Context might support that he meant that but he never outright said that...

 

[Nerevar]

the use of brackets to enclose words or phrases that someone has inserted into an otherwise word-for-word quotation.

Therefore he never said race outright... am I wrong? Context might support that he meant that but he never outright said that...

It's only used to replace a pronoun that the reader isn't supposed to have knowledge of. The original quote was most likely

"As a black guy, you kind of think it's the reason why it's coming up."

where he was responding to a question along the lines of "what role do you think race has to play in the twenty-year old age limit". The reader has no knowledge of the context the quote was made, so the journalist inserts the proper noun in place of the pronoun. It will never be used (at least by any half-decent journalist, and this is an AP story so I can guarantee you this is not hte case) to construct a quote that the originial speaker did not intend to make.

 

[darscot]

Nevermind, borghe covered it.

That's what college basketball is! You'd be surprised what bb players actually pay for.

My point here is that in sports like hockey you play in the Jr's you get paid a sallary, endorsments and you get a free education. In Basketball all they get is the education which most of the times tends to be a degree in Phys Ed. Do they even get endorsment money in college basketball?

 

[Cloudy]

An age limit is bullshit. The NBA doesn't need to protect idiot GMs from themselves. Hell, there have been many more college busts than HS busts over the years....

 

[Blackace]

It will never be used [by the scrupulous people of the media] to construct a quote that the originial speaker did not intend to make.

Are you sure? I mean I am not saying he was misquoted for sure. But this type of thing happens all the time. Within the context shown it is easy to insert that quote in there...but if there was more to the quote than shown...

 

[kablooey]

Well, it's rather obvious then that the NBA needs to create its own farm system, the same way baseball does.

I don't personally see racism inherent in the NBA's decision, but I wouldn't rule it out...sports, and especially basketball, are controlled by, and largely distributed to white people, yet the people who actually play are mostly black. If you don't think there's at least some kind of racism involved, then you're an awfully sheltered person.

White America likes to see players that "act white", like David Robinson, Michael Jordan, etc, and who present a wholesome family image. But for people who don't feel like playing by those rules, the mostly white media tends to villainize them. See Allen Iverson for example (even though I don't really like him much anyway).

I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit from this post, but it's all pretty obvious to me...

 

[Blackace]

An age limit is bullshit. The NBA doesn't need to protect idiot GMs from themselves. Hell, there have been many more college busts than HS busts over the years....

that's not true... the HS players didn't go to college! so how can you judge that? O'Neal and Lewis were crap until 3 or 4 years after they were drafted...college could have primed them more...

 

[Blackace]

Well, it's rather obvious then that the NBA needs to create its own farm system, the same way baseball does.

I don't personally see racism inherent in the NBA's decision, but I wouldn't rule it out...sports, and especially basketball, are controlled by, and largely distributed to white people, yet the people who actually play are mostly black. If you don't think there's at least some kind of racism involved, then you're an awfully sheltered person.

White America likes to see players that "act white", like David Robinson, Michael Jordan, etc, and who present a wholesome family image. But for people who don't feel like playing by those rules, the mostly white media tends to villainize them.

I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit from this post, but it's all pretty obvious to me...

I'm black and I agree... I don't think David Stern woke one day and said "Oh shit there are too many black people in this sport!" because blacks have always been in basketball

I think he woke up and thought "oh shit there are too many dumb fucks in this sport!"


If there was a bunch of Wiggaz coming out of HS I think Stern would do the same thing..

 

[Jonnyboy117]

Maybe this guy would know something about the constitution if he had gone to college.

Then again, with the NCAA's graduation rates...maybe not.

 

[Cloudy]

that's not true... the HS players didn't go to college! so how can you judge that? O'Neal and Lewis were crap until 3 or 4 years after they were drafted...college could have primed them more...

They were good enough to stay in the league after their rookie contracts! Busts are first rounders who can't get another deal and go play overseas or something.

Oh and Rashard was a 2nd rounder (so his deal wasn't guaranteed which is what this bullshit is all about, not race :lol) so he wasn't expected to just come in and produce. JO just had too many good players in front of him at his position on a contending team. He wasn't crap, he just didn't play much.

Again, since KG, there have been waaaaay more college busts...

 

[Justin Bailey]

White America likes to see players that "act white", like David Robinson, Michael Jordan, etc, and who present a wholesome family image. But for people who don't feel like playing by those rules, the mostly white media tends to villainize them. See Allen Iverson for example (even though I don't really like him much anyway).

I have to completely agree with this, even though I hate that not acting like a fuckwad and actually being civil has to be labeld as "acting white." Then blacks that act that way are labeled "Uncle Toms." It blows -_-

 

[borghe]

blackace.. you are right.. in the article, he never said that verbatim. and you are right that misquotes happen all the time. I just don't htink in this case, that someone would quote out of context such a comment. if it really was a misquote, something of that caliber could almost be considered libel. I doubt disney would let that go to print if it was in any way fabricated.

 

[Blackace]

They were good enough to stay in the league after their rookie contracts! Busts are first rounders who can't get another deal and go play overseas or something.

Oh and Rashard was a 2nd rounder (so his deal wasn't guaranteed which is what this bullshit is all about, not race :lol) so he wasn't expected to just come in and produce. JO just had too many good players in front of him at his position on a contending team. He wasn't crap, he just didn't play much.

Again, since KG, there have been waaaaay more college busts...

does matter when he was drafted... age limit means no HS players... ok let's look KG good pick.. Kobe (I hate saying this) good pick (but still didn't start playing well for 2 years), ONeal bad pick, Lewis ok pick for the 2nd round but had to blossom.


All I am saying if some of these HS players went to school then there wouldn't be a 4 year gap between being picked and performing... besides they might learn something as well...

Some players needed to skip college like KG and James... the others needed it...but money talks and it does fall on the GMs which is why Stern wants it to stop since they can't police themselves

 

[Blackace]

blackace.. you are right.. in the article, he never said that verbatim. and you are right that misquotes happen all the time. I just don't htink in this case, that someone would quote out of context such a comment. if it really was a misquote, something of that caliber could almost be considered libel. I doubt disney would let that go to print if it was in any way fabricated.

there is a big difference between libel and baiting for a story...

 

[kablooey]

I have to completely agree with this, even though I hate that not acting like a fuckwad and actually being civil has to be labeld as "acting white." Then blacks that act that way are labeled "Uncle Toms." It blows -_-

Well...I generally like the more "civil" players too, but I don't think it's completely fair. People don't want to try to understand why the "fuckwads" are the way they are in the first place. They've basically known since they were kids that the only way they'd succeed in life is to learn how to shoot a basketball through a hoop, while white people in HS, college, and otherwise are all too eager to exploit them for their talents without giving a fuck about their education. And then people wonder why so many players are dumb.

Why would such a player have any allegiance to the values of White America?

 

[Dilbert]

If general managers in the NBA decided among themselves to not draft anyone under the age of 21, would there be a lawsuit for discrimination?

 

[Meier]

O'Neal (and others) ignore the fact that many European (white) players are drafted as young as 18 too. It's not like it will only affect black people.