Another pampered NBA star, another idiotic comment ...
- Thread starter Nerevar
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Well, there is the Catch-22, right? If the general managers want to fix the problem of immature, unskilled players entering the NBA for shitloads of money every year by simply not drafting younger players for the good of the league, they would get nailed for collusion. If they put a formal age limit rule in place for the good of the league, they get accused of discrimination, and likely face a lawsuit in that case as well.Blackace said:
The bottom line is that O'Neal is flat wrong, and the NBA has a right to impose an age limit. Why would it be any different than the Maurice Clarett case?
Blackace said:
KG and Kobe = HOF. They are excellent picks (especially Kobe at 14th). Not many 2nd rounders become Allstars so Lewis is another great pick.
And what if they got hurt making money for the NCAA and couldn't play at the next level? The point of college is to get a good job. If you can get one without college, you're a fool if you don't take it :lol If a guy is good, he doesn't need to risk his future making money for the NCAA....
The others didn't need college. If Kobe and JO were picked by bad teams, they'd have got to start before their 3rd seasons and put up huge numbers too. It's on the GMs if they can't get competent scouts and make good decisions...
darscot said:
Shit maybe because its not. :lol
I was always under the impression that the people who wanted to have the age limit were the veteran NBA players who were losing their jobs to kids who were 19 and that couldn't play like Kwame Brown. These kids sit on the bench and do nothing but take up space for a person who can actually play....then 4 years later they become much better which would be the same thing as going to college.
Do people just look at a situation and see somebody black in it and immediately think racism nowadays?
And doesn't the NFL basically have an age limit and blacks are a majority there.....so is that age limit "racist"?
-jinx- said:
I think the reason it could turn out differently is because it's always harder to implement something that isn't already there.
I don't see what the big deal is about this sort of thing though... it's not like these kids who would have jumped at 18 are going to be stuck footing the bill for their schooling. And even if they're dumb as bricks, I'm sure they can find a situation where that won't matter...
KG and Kobe are not yet a lock for the hall... other than that, I agree with Konex. I'm not familiar with the NFL case and why they said it was ok to have an age limit. I just doubt that the NBA will ultimately choose to impose one, what with all the high school successes that they've had over the years, from Moses Malane to Lebron James.
And I REALLY don't get why this age issue is something that gets people so riled up.
The NCAA is a corrupted mess... why is it seen as something of a purification process for players.
That's possible but I really think the bigger threat to veteran job security is the veteran's minimum salary.
And I REALLY don't get why this age issue is something that gets people so riled up.
The NCAA is a corrupted mess... why is it seen as something of a purification process for players.
NWO said:
That's possible but I really think the bigger threat to veteran job security is the veteran's minimum salary.
Justin Bailey
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I just wish that these values didn't have to be "white" values.kablooey said:
Not good enough.Nerevar said:
For every high school kid who washes out in the League, I can produce the names at least 5 college-experienced players who suffered the same fate.
For every high school kid who took a couple of years to acclimate to the pace of the League, I can point to 5 college players who also needed time to grow and become productive players.
You don't see this age-limit bullshit in hockey. You don't hear about it in golf. Or Tennis. In fact, the only league where it's implemented and actually makes sense is in the NFL - where a high school player would literally place their life in danger heading straight in without the upgrade in physical skills that college football provides. You can't say that about basketball, no way no how.
Do I think David Stern is a racist? No - no more than most folks. The continual clamor to limit the options of these ballplaying kids coming out of high school does smack of racism, especially when that same concern isn't applied to other, white-dominated sports. Hell, if the NBA is so bloody concerned about high schoolers, Stern should answer as to why the GMs of that very league keep drafting them. If it's a problem, leave the kids on the board and they'll stop declaring. Or at the least, the so-called "problem" will slow down considerably.
Tell me why a point guard needs more seasoning than a shortstop, then we can talk.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
bishoptl said:
Bish... a shortstop get his seasoning in the minors... which is what I think the NBA needs more than a flat out age limit... expand te draft make a farm system and go nuts... the problem is getting owners to spend the money on that...
C'mon Gek, you can make a smarter post than that.
Blackace, if the NBA would use a minor system like baseball or hockey without implementing an age-limit, I'd be all for it. Let the high schoolers hone their skills while still being paid their rookie contracts and I'll be first in line to applaud. With an infrastructure that mirrors hockey and baseball, it could work.
Blackace, if the NBA would use a minor system like baseball or hockey without implementing an age-limit, I'd be all for it. Let the high schoolers hone their skills while still being paid their rookie contracts and I'll be first in line to applaud. With an infrastructure that mirrors hockey and baseball, it could work.
I don't think that racism is the motive behind the age limit at all, but I do think that the reason why a wide portion of the general public supports it is because of implicit race perceptions. That's not to say that people conciously think "18 your old Blacks shouldn't be in the NBA and making money!", but there is a huge gray area when it comes to the effects of race on people's thought processes. The fact is that people don't bring up these age-limit arguments for any other pro sport except the NBA and the NFL (though in the NFL there is a huge physical reason to it). Yeah, sure, baseball has a minor league system, but why is no one proposing the same for the NBA instead of an all out ban? And how about every single other sport in the world (Soccer, NHL, any individual sport)? There's no outrage at all when Maria Sharapova plays in Wimbledon at 17. So, I don't think there are racial motives for putting an age limit in, but I do think that if these were a bunch of well to do (white) childred, people would have no where near the same strong sentiments on the matter. As for Stern, he's obviously doing it for the money, as hyping kids in the college game brings hype into the NBA game when they get drafted.
And I don't get at all why people are trashing Jermain O'Neal in this thread. God forbid a pro athlete has a controversial social opinion! It's not like he's a rambling lunatic here; he makes a very good and legitimate observation: the only two pro sports in the ENTIRE WORLD to have an age limit (assuming the NBA adopts one) happen to be one of only three (with track and field the other) which are predominently Black. That's a striking correlation. I don't agree with (or rather if he did) his statement that racism is the motive behind adopting it, but I also don't see it as black and white as some of you simplify it to. Race can be a factor without being the be all end all motive.
As for a court challenge, this would not be a slam dunk case for the NBA. Yeah, Maurice Clarett failed in his court challenge, but he did win some early victories. More importantly, in any NBA trial, the high school player can point to the fact that the last two ROY were high school kids and that high school kids are having a higher success rate in the pros than college kids at this point (primarily because they have the most talent, of course). A lot of the NFL's argument was that high school kids weren't ready for the NFL, and the NBA will not be able to use that same argument.
BS. Amare won ROY the year before Lebron. Dwight Howard is already averaging a double double this year. Shaun Livingston, JR Smith, Al Jefferson, and Josh Smith have all played better than any college kid this year save 3 (Gordon, Okafor, Deng). People forget that the success rate for any NBA draftee isn't all that high. They cite these examples of failed high school kids.....but I can easily cite 5 failed college kids as well. Jermaine didn't play well at first because the Blazers utterly refused to play him. Almost the second he got traded to Indiana, he became an all-star. People forget that, as well.
And I don't get at all why people are trashing Jermain O'Neal in this thread. God forbid a pro athlete has a controversial social opinion! It's not like he's a rambling lunatic here; he makes a very good and legitimate observation: the only two pro sports in the ENTIRE WORLD to have an age limit (assuming the NBA adopts one) happen to be one of only three (with track and field the other) which are predominently Black. That's a striking correlation. I don't agree with (or rather if he did) his statement that racism is the motive behind adopting it, but I also don't see it as black and white as some of you simplify it to. Race can be a factor without being the be all end all motive.
As for a court challenge, this would not be a slam dunk case for the NBA. Yeah, Maurice Clarett failed in his court challenge, but he did win some early victories. More importantly, in any NBA trial, the high school player can point to the fact that the last two ROY were high school kids and that high school kids are having a higher success rate in the pros than college kids at this point (primarily because they have the most talent, of course). A lot of the NFL's argument was that high school kids weren't ready for the NFL, and the NBA will not be able to use that same argument.
BS. Amare won ROY the year before Lebron. Dwight Howard is already averaging a double double this year. Shaun Livingston, JR Smith, Al Jefferson, and Josh Smith have all played better than any college kid this year save 3 (Gordon, Okafor, Deng). People forget that the success rate for any NBA draftee isn't all that high. They cite these examples of failed high school kids.....but I can easily cite 5 failed college kids as well. Jermaine didn't play well at first because the Blazers utterly refused to play him. Almost the second he got traded to Indiana, he became an all-star. People forget that, as well.
You're missing the point Bish. It has nothing to do with skills, it has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with wanting a farm system to test players and avoid paying large sums of money. It's gotten to the point now where college isn't a proving ground for young players because almost all of the top flight talent leaves and goes straight to the NBA. There's no point where a player truly plays against the highest level of competition - talent is diluted at all levels except the top. Instituting an age limit allows the NBA executives to treat the college game as a farm system, much like the NFL does the NCAAs. Keep in mind what the effects of an age limit would be, not what the system is like now.bishoptl said:
This concern isn't applied to other sports because they have real minor leagues that players are forced to play in. Baseball has it's actual minor leagues, hockey has the clubs in Canada and in Europe where pretty much all top-flight talent goes, the NFL has NCAA football - basketball doesn't have that, and it's becoming a problem as the stakes are getting higher. Owners want a solution, and an age limit is an excellent solution to that from their perspective. Is it fair to the kids who can compete right away(Amare Stoudamire, LeBron James)? Of course not. Does it protect the owners financial interests? Absolutely. They know the kids will be in the league in another year or two, and they'll be just as good (if not better) when they come in. It's a win-win situation for the owners, and frankly it also helps the players in the NBA (as they face less competition from young and talented, but unseasoned, players).bishoptl said:
One thing that was brought up was the comparisons to Golf, Tennis, etc, like Bish had mentioned. Basically, sports with no age limit and no minor league/farm system. It's not a very logical point to from which to anchor an argument (according to Cuban, anyway) since those sports do not offer guaranteed contracts by the league. Basically, you have your agent, your sponsors, but other than that, you're on your own.
Of course, Cuban said the NBA would gladly give up guaranteed contracts for an unrestricted age limit... :lol
Of course, Cuban said the NBA would gladly give up guaranteed contracts for an unrestricted age limit... :lol
And by farming out those high schoolers to the NCAA instead of letting them play in the League:Nerevar said:
- the NBA benefits from the 3-4 years of college hype for these players before they move to the pros
- the NCAA benefits from the billions in revenue generated by these kids while giving them a pittance (and as Shinobi knows, that's a whole other thread I can fire up at will
)Using the college game as a farm system screws kids like Shaun Livingston, Jermaine O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, and Kobe Bryant out of their right to ply their trade and receive fair-market compensation at the highest possible level. Like O'Neal said, you can catch a bullet for Bush at 18, but you can't drop a ball into a hoop? If I was a high schooler and the NBA tried to impose an age-limitation system carte blanche, I'd sue the fuck out of the NBA and the Player's Association.
Fine. Then they can do what hockey does - draft 17 and 18-year olds, sign them to two-way rookie contracts, and let them play in developmental leagues while their skills develop. That way the kids get paid, and the NCAA doesn't get the opportunity to leech off their game without proper compensation.Nerevar said:
I can't believe you or O'Neal are equating government and the sports industry. You can't drink until you're 21 in most (all?) states either. So does that mean they shouldn't be able to play ball until 21? You can be convicted as an adult in most states at 16, so should they be allowed to drop out of high school and go pro then?bishoptl said:
just saying, that is by far the weakest part of his weak argument..
bishop - I think you are misinterpreting my argument. I am simply saying that the NBA wanting an age limit is not a racist proposition. I'm not saying whether it is right or even that it is the best way to go about doing it. I think they clearly wanted to develop some kind of farm system with the NBDL, but that's going nowhere, so they're going to option B. That doesn't make it racist.
Frankly, I'd rather all major sports had a full minor league system (like hockey and baseball do), but that's not going to happen in basketball or football anytime soon. So this option is the next best thing.
Frankly, I'd rather all major sports had a full minor league system (like hockey and baseball do), but that's not going to happen in basketball or football anytime soon. So this option is the next best thing.
and in regards to a farm league, paying them even relatively large amounts of money in that, and all of that hubub... the desire, almost demand, for instant gratification in this world is insane, and feeding to it even further is nuts. you guys talk aboutthe NCAA leeching off of them for four years, but then neglect to mention that, if the player does his part, comes out of college with a freaking college degree (I realize that isn't the intent of the age limit, just expanding on other points).
Also let's not forget that while the NCAA system is hard from perfect, at its roots the publicity is there (nowadays at least) to generate popularity for the school and increase academic funds and enrollment for competing schools. So it's not like the NBA where the money is going 100% to making the rich richer, but instead at least part of it is going back into the schools, mostly universities which in turn helps stave of government funding.
Yet I see people arguing that it is ok to forget the college education, forget the supplemental educational funding of universities, and demand instant gratification for a VERY limited talent set because of perceived self-importance.....
and this is what our world has come to.
again, not saying the NBA's goal here is noble or anything.. just asking if it is really a bad thing to be sticking these kids (white black whatever) in college for a couple of years, basketball aside.
Also let's not forget that while the NCAA system is hard from perfect, at its roots the publicity is there (nowadays at least) to generate popularity for the school and increase academic funds and enrollment for competing schools. So it's not like the NBA where the money is going 100% to making the rich richer, but instead at least part of it is going back into the schools, mostly universities which in turn helps stave of government funding.
Yet I see people arguing that it is ok to forget the college education, forget the supplemental educational funding of universities, and demand instant gratification for a VERY limited talent set because of perceived self-importance.....
and this is what our world has come to.
again, not saying the NBA's goal here is noble or anything.. just asking if it is really a bad thing to be sticking these kids (white black whatever) in college for a couple of years, basketball aside.
Frankly, if you're considered adult enough to go to war or be tried as an adult, turning around and saying that you're not adult enough to play basketball professionally is laughable.borghe said:
These college athletes generate billions of dollars in revenue for the NCAA and their partners. Billions. Yes, some of these kids do walk out with a college degree and that's great - but far more of these programs (especially the successful ones) don't graduate kids at all. Just crank them through for their skills and leave them high and dry when they're no longer useful - no degree, no life training, no professional future. Hell, no future at all.
That quote:
demonstrates everything that's wrong about how people look at sports today.
That "limited talent set" generates money. Money for the universities. Money for the NCAA. Money for the networks. Yet these kids are in the wrong for wanting their piece of the very real revenue that their "limited talent set" generates?? HOW DARE THEY.
We pay money to watch the best do what they do. We want to see the best scorers, the best defenders and perimeter shooters. We make bets, call in to talk shows, start sports threads and argue with strangers and loved ones alike over non-calls from games 12 years ago because whether you like it or not - sports has that effect on the public.
And Nerevar, I said before that I don't believe that David Stern is a racist for wanting a similar policy to the NFL. I do believe, however, that Bat nailed it perfectly - a lot of people DO have a large problem with young black kids making millions.
I've heard this sentiment expressed on numerous occasions, it's maddening and it's hypocritical. It's great that hockey and baseball have minor leagues, but even if they didn't, the outrage over a Sidney Crosby heading straight to the pros would be muted considerably in comparison to the crap high schoolers get when declaring for the NBA.Bat said:
bishoptl said:
2 issues here:
1) Jermaine O'Neal was clearly implicating that an age limit was a racist policy. For a whole large number of reasons (which I have pointed out above), this simply isn't true. It benefits the owners in a number of ways. Therefore, Jermaine O'Neal is wrong. The NBA is not doing this because of racism. Whether or not John Q. Public has a problem with an 18-year old black kid making 15 mil a year is another issue entirely, and not relevent (IMO) to the argument O'Neal made.
2) I don't approve of the seperation between people acting "white" and "black". It's not that people don't like "black" atheletes - they don't like atheletes who act like thugs, arrogant pricks, or just general foul human beings, white or black. I don't really want to get any further into the debate on this, but remember that Jordan is probably the most-loved athelete of all time, and if you consider him to be a person who "acted white" then you have race issues you need to work out yourself. All IMO, of course.
borghe said:
You're missing the point. Playing in the NBA and being in the military can be equated because they are both essentially jobs. Drinking and legal rights are just that, rights, they are not relevant here at all. Military service and playing pro basketball, meanwhile, are both careers, and that's why they are compared. You can't name another career/industry that doesn't want to hire very qualified people, regardless of age.
EDIT- And even if you do interpret Jermain O'Neal's comment like that, you're criticism still doesn't hold water. People for decades have complained the drinking age should be lowered to 18 because of the military thing (and they did lower it during the Vietnam war). So why does Jermaine's comparison sound so ridiculous to you? Furthermore, in the drinking case, the reason why the goverment doesn't currently lower the age is that keeping it at 21 saves thousands of lives. You simply cannot say that keeping kids out of the NBA has that sort of effect. So short of some blatant (ie life saving) reason, there should not be discrimination among adults on what they can and can't do.
bish - I understand what you are saying. It is what it is. So my point I guess comes down to, do we continue perpetuating the way it is and provide that instant gratification, or do we look to change things.
As I said, it is not the most noble intentions on the NBA's part.. I'm just wondering if maybe something larger shouldn't be recognized here. These kids are in college for up to 4 years (in many cases). If they are getting out with no real skill sets beyond being able to play ball for the next 15-20 years (if they are lucky), shouldn't that be looked at. Shouldn't a catalyst, such as say effectively requiring them to go to college, be looked at as a potential starting point for change?
We wonder why these kids are growing up clueless and without value. It's because we encourage it. It's because they know they don't have to do shit in school. Just maintain enough to be on the basketball team long enough to be seen and drafted. And now we are looking for ways to encourage that even further. :\
eh, I am beating my head against a brick wall here. I realize sports in the world is what it is. we are never going to go back to the days of players needing offseason jobs or real world skills for when after the retire from the leagues. I realize that the media and fans will continue to idolize and diefy kids that aren't even or are just barely twenty. And I realize that it will just keep getting bigger and bigger and worse and worse.. just trying to bring some common sense into it...
I'm done.
As I said, it is not the most noble intentions on the NBA's part.. I'm just wondering if maybe something larger shouldn't be recognized here. These kids are in college for up to 4 years (in many cases). If they are getting out with no real skill sets beyond being able to play ball for the next 15-20 years (if they are lucky), shouldn't that be looked at. Shouldn't a catalyst, such as say effectively requiring them to go to college, be looked at as a potential starting point for change?
We wonder why these kids are growing up clueless and without value. It's because we encourage it. It's because they know they don't have to do shit in school. Just maintain enough to be on the basketball team long enough to be seen and drafted. And now we are looking for ways to encourage that even further. :\
eh, I am beating my head against a brick wall here. I realize sports in the world is what it is. we are never going to go back to the days of players needing offseason jobs or real world skills for when after the retire from the leagues. I realize that the media and fans will continue to idolize and diefy kids that aren't even or are just barely twenty. And I realize that it will just keep getting bigger and bigger and worse and worse.. just trying to bring some common sense into it...
I'm done.
this is a delicate point. You're right, I can't name another industry that clearly states you have to be at least 22 to apply for this job. However, I can show you plenty of industries and companies that effectively do just that by requiring a bachelors or masters degree to apply. I am seeing this as no different. They are calling it an age minimum, but in effect (as nerevar pointed out) it is just requiring a "basketball college degree" first, except for the fact that there is no such degree (such as time in a farm league) so they call it an age minimum instead.Bat said:
It always has a bit of a racist feel to it b/c this really does screw over the players, who are now getting to a professional level of play in high school. Why should they pass up millions to go to college where they might suck or get injured? You don't see this nonsense in baseball, a largely "white" sport. Meh, it's not like the racial buildup will change any, but it's really not in the interest of the players. Some guys are better off skipping college. Why bother if they're just gonna drop out anyway? Is playing a few years in school and still not earning a degree supposed to be something special? I don't think hockey does this stuff either. Neither does soccer.
The NFL's reasons are pretty silly since guys still bail early for the draft. They should let nature decide here. If a guy is big enough to play out of high school, I say let him. It's not like you're a boy at 18 anyway, these are men. But whatever. If it keeps blue-chippers coming to the Gators, then so be it. PEACE.
The NFL's reasons are pretty silly since guys still bail early for the draft. They should let nature decide here. If a guy is big enough to play out of high school, I say let him. It's not like you're a boy at 18 anyway, these are men. But whatever. If it keeps blue-chippers coming to the Gators, then so be it.
PEACE.TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
>>>Maybe this guy would know something about the constitution if he had gone to college.
Then again, with the NCAA's graduation rates...maybe not.<<<
A college degree is wasted on someone who is stupid enough to turn down guaranteed millions to go to college. Your basketball career could end with an injury in college. Then where would you be? If your NBA career doesn't pan out, you could always use some of your signing bonus to go to school, lol.
They say a mind is a terrible thing to waste, but sometimes there's nothing to waste.
Then again, with the NCAA's graduation rates...maybe not.<<<
A college degree is wasted on someone who is stupid enough to turn down guaranteed millions to go to college. Your basketball career could end with an injury in college. Then where would you be? If your NBA career doesn't pan out, you could always use some of your signing bonus to go to school, lol.
They say a mind is a terrible thing to waste, but sometimes there's nothing to waste.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Pimpwerx said:
the reason you don't see this in baseball is because baseball contracts for guys coming straight out of high school aren't guaranteed multimillionaires, and unless you are a phenom like Ken Griffey Jr., you have to prove yourself through years and years of MINOR league play. You don't see a situation where a guy is making millions and millions of dollars for sitting on a major league bench doing jackshit for 2 years until he is "ready" like Kwame Brown.
edit: Tim Legler (of all people) just made an excellent point on ESPN, which is that ANY economic policy like an age limit that the NBA institutes is going to seem like it effects blacks moreso than any other race because 90% of the friggin league is black.
Ninja Scooter said:
Sure they are. During last year's draft, several teams passed on Jeff Weaver's brother because he was demanding (and getting) a enormous contract.
I also don't really get your point. I mean, yeah basketball rookies are going to get paid more, but that's because they are far more ready outside of high school than baseball players are. Also, rookie contracts in the NBA are relatively small (under the average salary) so your argument holds no water. They're not making millions and millions of dollars....Jermaine O'Neal was making around a million a year when he was in his rookie contract, which is very small by NBA standards. And for every Kwame Brown making 4 million $ a year (which is still not that much and less than he would get in the open market now), there is a Lebron James or Amare Stoudemire making way, way, way less than his market value on his rookie contract. Lebron will be making 4.5 million $ (around the average NBA salary) for the next two years, despite him being one of the (if not the) best players in the league. If he was a free agent now, he'd take the max ($12 million increasing) no questions asked. Hell, he could have gotten that straight from high school if the current system was not in place.
Anyways, I still don't see how this pretains to high school players. College players have just as high of a chance to sit their rookie seasons on the bench and they collect money from the same (fair) rookie pay scale. The fact that NBA players are more ready out of high school than baseball players is irrelevant...actuallly it strengthens the argument that high school players should be let into the NBA.
On a side (but obviously related) comment, the NBA rookie pay scale is one the best ideas in pro sports. In the MLB and NFL, rookie contract demands have gotten way out of hand, with rookies (lacking any sort of cap on their salary) holding out for the contract they demand. This used to be the case in the NBA, but Stern fixed it and it is now exactly as you (incorrectly) described MLB's system: rookies get low value contracts until they prove their stuff.
Ninja Scooter
Member
i was just explaining why there is so much public outcry and controversey over the NBA as opposed to other sports. Its not because those are "white" sports, its because a rookie in the MLB, no matter how highly touted, isn't anywhere near as high profile. Generally, you don't hear about a young player in baseball until they are ready to be pros, and if they aren't they'll spend their careers in the minors.
injecting race into this is so stupid, and really deflects attention to the actual issue. I actually believe that there shouldn't be an age limit, and don't agree with most of the arguments in favor of one. Want to prevent high schoolers that aren't ready from taking up roster spots? How about putting the onus on the GMs and owners to not be dipshits and actually do some research and draft a guy because he can PLAY BASKETBALL WELL, not just because he has an extraordinary vertical leap and can run like a gazelle.
injecting race into this is so stupid, and really deflects attention to the actual issue. I actually believe that there shouldn't be an age limit, and don't agree with most of the arguments in favor of one. Want to prevent high schoolers that aren't ready from taking up roster spots? How about putting the onus on the GMs and owners to not be dipshits and actually do some research and draft a guy because he can PLAY BASKETBALL WELL, not just because he has an extraordinary vertical leap and can run like a gazelle.
Ninja Scooter said:
Well, then that's a good point. However, that doesn't explain why people get angry that young, Black men are making millions while sitting on the bench. I do think there is an (implicit) racial aspect to that. I also still contend that the public outcry is unreasonable because college players are just as likely to not play their rookie years. It's just that those players aren't nearly as highly noticeable. If Jay Williams was a high school player everyone would be talking about how his game wasn't ready for the NBA and not going to college led to recklessness, which subsequently caused his motorcycle accident.
It's tricky, because 8/10 times the guy with the amazing athletic ability will be the better player than the safe, college pick. The key is to take people somewhere in the middle, I guess. It's not as easy as it sounds, however. Example: after Michael Jordan drafted Kwame Brown in 2001, he went the exact opposite direction the next year and picked Juan Dixon, who, while a great college basketball player, has been a dud. Identifying college players who have the talent to take their games up a notch (like Miami did with Dwayne Wade) is very difficult.
Simple solution...
...if the NBA wants to have an age limit, all you have to do is say that you are required to have a 4 year degree before being allowed to enter the draft. People want to treat it like a business, fine, treat it like a business. You want to work for us, you need a 4 year degree and at least a 2.0 GPA. We'll pay you the millions, but you gotta sweat for it before you can earn it.
These are some of the most overpaid athletes in the world (next to baseball players)... I see zero problem with telling these kids that they've gotta wait til they're 20 to start earning the money. "We want an educated workforce...": it's that simple.
...if the NBA wants to have an age limit, all you have to do is say that you are required to have a 4 year degree before being allowed to enter the draft. People want to treat it like a business, fine, treat it like a business. You want to work for us, you need a 4 year degree and at least a 2.0 GPA. We'll pay you the millions, but you gotta sweat for it before you can earn it.
These are some of the most overpaid athletes in the world (next to baseball players)... I see zero problem with telling these kids that they've gotta wait til they're 20 to start earning the money. "We want an educated workforce...": it's that simple.
The Faceless Master
Member
yeah, except the GM's want to get players who can make them WIN, and that doesn't always come with a 4 year degree, and as many people have pointed out, there are more college duds than high school dudswhytemyke said:
Ninja Scooter
Member
Bat said:
i guess you do have a point, and in a sense i agree. The timing of all this being brought up by Stern is what i find hilarous (and somewhat absurd). Coming off a season where almost every single one of the most popular players (Amare, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Ginobli, Dirk, ...) didn't spend a minute in college, you can count the number of superstars that had significant college careers on one hand (Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, Wade... and who else?), coming off probably the best overall high school rookie class to date (Howard, Telfair, JR Smith are all seeing significant minutes and producing) while another high school kid stole the show at the allstar game (Josh Smith).
Ned Flanders
Banned
My problem with the racism claim is that its kind of self-negating.
As others have mentioned, the negative effects of high-school draft entries are essentially twofold; 1) that underdeveloped teens enter the league all gassed that they are the next LeBron, go bust, then have nothing to fall back on with no college experience and no degree, and 2) that older, more qualified players are being forced out by teens who often get little to no PT and develop over several years in the league as they allegedly would at the college level.
Now, ignoring the (valid, I might add) argument that many collegiate players wind up busting just as bad as the high-schoolers, and considering that the majority of NBA players are black (I think I've seen 80% thrown around in this thread..sounds accurate), both of these aspects of the current HS draft have just as many negative repurcussions on blacks as likely would a league with an age limit.
Regarding aspect 1, I don't think anyone in the pro-black community enjoys seeing young black athletes, groomed all their lives to fulfill their hoop dreams, crash and burn under the extreme pressure and high level of competition in the NBA with nothing to fall back on. Virtually all pro-black organizations advocate education and financial stability, particularly for inner city youth (where a lot of hoops brightest stars emerge from). Think about it this way..say a HS student were a gifted musician/rapper/singer etc..likely qualified enough to succeed at a high level in the music industry, but still completely sheltered from the machinations of adult society. Do you think any youth-advocacy group would suggest that he skip college in order to pursue his musical pursuits immediately, or do you think they'd suggest he get some college under his belt, work toward a degree/trade and then chase his dreams now that he was equipped with something to fall back on?? They'd have to know that anyone in the extremely competitive music industry, much less a freshly graduated 18 year old, is going to have a low probability for success given that so few make it to the top. You would also figure that if he didn't make it, he'd likely return home in order start his life over. For many of these same kids, home is not a positive place, and is completely devoid of the opportunities that a college setting provides.
How that scenario is more positive for black youths than being forced to accept at least a couple of years of free education via scholarship or what basically amounts to on-the-job training in a farm system (getting back to basketball) escapes me. It seems like an extremely negative situation for a HS'er of any color, the only difference being that a white teen is more likely to have a more stable home situation to fall back on. As I alluded to, even if you bust as a collegiate star, at least you have some education (hopefully a degree) to draw from or make some positive connections/aquaintances during your college years to provide you with better opportunities than your old neighborhood would (I've heard of a lot of NBA busts returning to coach ball at their alma-mater etc).
In scenario 2, again the sheer percentage of black players in the L means that those older players being forced out at the top by the Kwames and Darkos are likely black, and more than likely have families to support, and mortgages to pay. Which is not to say that any veteran NBA player who manages his money with the least bit of discretion shouldn't be living comfortably, but maintaining that standard of living is not cheap, and its a little unfair pushing out a deserving vet prematurely to save a roster spot for a thrifty HS rookie who won't reach playabilty for some time. Many of these older players paid their dues, went to college and graduated, and earned their stripes through many years in the league, and now the careers of these successful black men who did things the right way are being cut short by teens who are risking their future through early entry.
So its hard for me to justify saying that an age limit would qualify as racist given that the majority of the people being slighted by these HS draftees are black themselves. One thing that needs to be said is that it is definitely hard to support/oppose the age limit unequivocally, because there are exceptions on both sides. Given the way LeBron James' career is going, he may reach levels of greatness unparalleled because he wasn't being held back during these years where his production is already so spectacular. Same for KG/Amare and the like. But on the flipside there are players like Kwame and Darko (and far worse) who make you wonder how magnificent they could have been as rookies with the benefit of a few years of DL/college polish under their belts. Now they are likely to achieve mere mediocrity at best. Its not an easy call.
But again, I simply don't think the "racist" assertion holds water when predominately black males are the ones suffering because of these early entries. Furthermore, I don't think its racist to be more congnizant of the fact that many blacks do come from disadvantaged circumstances and that ensuring their success should be more of a concern than that of priveleged whites. In other social settings, doing so would be seen as a positive thing for the black community..ie affirmative action etc. Only on this issue have I seen it reversed to be viewed as an oppressive action or some form of discrimination. In doing so, to me it seems to argue that blacks on the whole aren't in a socio-economically disadvantaged position, which is of course a boldfaced mistruth.
As others have mentioned, the negative effects of high-school draft entries are essentially twofold; 1) that underdeveloped teens enter the league all gassed that they are the next LeBron, go bust, then have nothing to fall back on with no college experience and no degree, and 2) that older, more qualified players are being forced out by teens who often get little to no PT and develop over several years in the league as they allegedly would at the college level.
Now, ignoring the (valid, I might add) argument that many collegiate players wind up busting just as bad as the high-schoolers, and considering that the majority of NBA players are black (I think I've seen 80% thrown around in this thread..sounds accurate), both of these aspects of the current HS draft have just as many negative repurcussions on blacks as likely would a league with an age limit.
Regarding aspect 1, I don't think anyone in the pro-black community enjoys seeing young black athletes, groomed all their lives to fulfill their hoop dreams, crash and burn under the extreme pressure and high level of competition in the NBA with nothing to fall back on. Virtually all pro-black organizations advocate education and financial stability, particularly for inner city youth (where a lot of hoops brightest stars emerge from). Think about it this way..say a HS student were a gifted musician/rapper/singer etc..likely qualified enough to succeed at a high level in the music industry, but still completely sheltered from the machinations of adult society. Do you think any youth-advocacy group would suggest that he skip college in order to pursue his musical pursuits immediately, or do you think they'd suggest he get some college under his belt, work toward a degree/trade and then chase his dreams now that he was equipped with something to fall back on?? They'd have to know that anyone in the extremely competitive music industry, much less a freshly graduated 18 year old, is going to have a low probability for success given that so few make it to the top. You would also figure that if he didn't make it, he'd likely return home in order start his life over. For many of these same kids, home is not a positive place, and is completely devoid of the opportunities that a college setting provides.
How that scenario is more positive for black youths than being forced to accept at least a couple of years of free education via scholarship or what basically amounts to on-the-job training in a farm system (getting back to basketball) escapes me. It seems like an extremely negative situation for a HS'er of any color, the only difference being that a white teen is more likely to have a more stable home situation to fall back on. As I alluded to, even if you bust as a collegiate star, at least you have some education (hopefully a degree) to draw from or make some positive connections/aquaintances during your college years to provide you with better opportunities than your old neighborhood would (I've heard of a lot of NBA busts returning to coach ball at their alma-mater etc).
In scenario 2, again the sheer percentage of black players in the L means that those older players being forced out at the top by the Kwames and Darkos are likely black, and more than likely have families to support, and mortgages to pay. Which is not to say that any veteran NBA player who manages his money with the least bit of discretion shouldn't be living comfortably, but maintaining that standard of living is not cheap, and its a little unfair pushing out a deserving vet prematurely to save a roster spot for a thrifty HS rookie who won't reach playabilty for some time. Many of these older players paid their dues, went to college and graduated, and earned their stripes through many years in the league, and now the careers of these successful black men who did things the right way are being cut short by teens who are risking their future through early entry.
So its hard for me to justify saying that an age limit would qualify as racist given that the majority of the people being slighted by these HS draftees are black themselves. One thing that needs to be said is that it is definitely hard to support/oppose the age limit unequivocally, because there are exceptions on both sides. Given the way LeBron James' career is going, he may reach levels of greatness unparalleled because he wasn't being held back during these years where his production is already so spectacular. Same for KG/Amare and the like. But on the flipside there are players like Kwame and Darko (and far worse) who make you wonder how magnificent they could have been as rookies with the benefit of a few years of DL/college polish under their belts. Now they are likely to achieve mere mediocrity at best. Its not an easy call.
But again, I simply don't think the "racist" assertion holds water when predominately black males are the ones suffering because of these early entries. Furthermore, I don't think its racist to be more congnizant of the fact that many blacks do come from disadvantaged circumstances and that ensuring their success should be more of a concern than that of priveleged whites. In other social settings, doing so would be seen as a positive thing for the black community..ie affirmative action etc. Only on this issue have I seen it reversed to be viewed as an oppressive action or some form of discrimination. In doing so, to me it seems to argue that blacks on the whole aren't in a socio-economically disadvantaged position, which is of course a boldfaced mistruth.
The Faceless Master said:
If everyone in the league is held to a 4 year degree, and you have to have a 4 year degree in order to get into the NBA to make your millions, and you're an athlete that is being offered by all these schools essentially 'free' degrees, you're going to take the free degree, bide your time, THEN make your money. Unless of course your like playing for 200 bucks a game in the USBL or something.
So your point doesn't really work in this situation, because its making it so that EVERY player, even the ones that the GMs will want, will have to go to school first.
PLUS, it'll help college ball, because these strong programs won't have room for all the athletes they want due to already-existing scholarship restrictions. It'll put more talent into weaker schools essentially, giving conferences like Sunbelt, MAC, MCC, and the WAC better teams to put into the tournament. This will equate to better overall basketball come march, more intelligent players in the NBA (so you won't have to spend all this money giving the rookies these courses on how to feed yourself or whatever), and a maximizing of the money by the owners because your chances of drafting a dud are going to be significantly lower (not eliminated... but lower.) Also, it'll make it so teams like Portland don't waste 4 years of a career of players like Jermaine O'neal, or Detroit wasting 2 years so far on Darko Milicic.
So, you disagree that O'Neal obviously meant "racism" when he said "it is the reason" after "As a black guy"? Come now...Blackace said:there is a big difference between libel and baiting for a story...
It is conventional to replace something like "it" with what the person (O'Neal) intended to mean, in order to help readers. Especially when the charge is so serious. Bait? Hardly.
The Faceless Master
Member
the point many people are making is that anything involving the NCAA is a glorified 4 year slave labor sentence... kind of like how massa clothes and feeds the slaves as long as they make sure to pluck that cotton in the hot sun... hahah, i can't wait for people to rip apart that horrible example!whytemyke said:
and did you miss the people who already pointed out that more college players are duds?
Maybe Stern has been lobbied by the PLAYERS!!! OMG!!!! don't laugh it's more than likely come from the players themselves.
Maybe stern is a racist, but i doubt it, the older players would work it out and he wouldn't last.
Guys like Jordan/Barkley/Malone/Ewing have dealt with him for years without a peep and they have enough clout to stand up and say whatever they like and certainly wouldn't hold back if they thought he was a racist. And i wouldn't be ultra surprised if some of these guys weren't behind this move.
Basketball isn't the only sport in the world to have an age limit and it's not as non contact as people think. even a big 18 yo doesn't usually have a mature enough body to take the pounding for 80+ games a season.
The mental side of it is a lot different too. u r playing against fully developed hardened athletes. i certainly wouldn't have had the maturity at 18 to play a pro sport for 80 games.
The NCAA as a farm system, i don't know, but it could be worse.
Sometimes people black/white yellow need some protection from themselves, certainly making a kid wait 2 years before he starts earning huge sums of money is no great impost.
Maybe stern is a racist, but i doubt it, the older players would work it out and he wouldn't last.
Guys like Jordan/Barkley/Malone/Ewing have dealt with him for years without a peep and they have enough clout to stand up and say whatever they like and certainly wouldn't hold back if they thought he was a racist. And i wouldn't be ultra surprised if some of these guys weren't behind this move.
Basketball isn't the only sport in the world to have an age limit and it's not as non contact as people think. even a big 18 yo doesn't usually have a mature enough body to take the pounding for 80+ games a season.
The mental side of it is a lot different too. u r playing against fully developed hardened athletes. i certainly wouldn't have had the maturity at 18 to play a pro sport for 80 games.
The NCAA as a farm system, i don't know, but it could be worse.
Sometimes people black/white yellow need some protection from themselves, certainly making a kid wait 2 years before he starts earning huge sums of money is no great impost.
The "we need to help the players by giving them degrees!" side is total fantasy. College hoops doesn't operate like that...big time prospects at big school don't get any sort of education, really, they are just there to play basketball. The graduation rates are so low (and the circumstances of getting by so sketchy) that it's hard to consider that to be a seriously useful education. I do agree that it would help HS players not to think about jumping straight to the pros, but I don't think it's ours (or Stern's) role to say what adults should do with their lives.
And I definetly agree that the timing of all this is odd. Yeah, the CBA is up, but this is coming after a draft in which almost every HS player taken has panned out more or less immediately. I think now teams are more prepared to handle HS kids, and the results are only going to get better. In some ways, actually, skipping college cna help your game, as I feel that playing college ball (especially in certain programs that play zone) stunts your basketball development with regards to certain skills.
And I definetly agree that the timing of all this is odd. Yeah, the CBA is up, but this is coming after a draft in which almost every HS player taken has panned out more or less immediately. I think now teams are more prepared to handle HS kids, and the results are only going to get better. In some ways, actually, skipping college cna help your game, as I feel that playing college ball (especially in certain programs that play zone) stunts your basketball development with regards to certain skills.
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