Are MMOs actually good games?

jerd

Member
Or is/was it just a fad?

I've never played an MMO before, and now my brother is trying to get me to start WoW with him. Having no experience with the genre, I have no clue what to expect. I generally love RPGs, so I am curious, but are they actually enjoyable? Because from reading GAF all I see is them all being generalized as full of fetch quests, level grinding, and slay x amount of y monster. They sound like as much a chore as anything. It also seems like any MMO not named WoW seems to have trouble gaining any footing.

So what say you GAF? Is MMO actually a good genre in general? Or were they popularized by novelty? Could someone who has never experienced the genre still enjoy it?
 
They're good fun the first time around. I've gotten sick of them, but if you've never played one I'd say it's worth a shot.
 
You'll have to give it a try... WoW has the ease of accessibility that most MMO's don't offer when starting out so you may enjoy it and if you stick to playing it with other ppl, you will be hooked.
 
It's a fad for each one of us. Most people go through a MMO stage were they play it all the time for a few months, then never again.
 
It depends. Are you playing by yourself or with a group of friends? What it amounts to is yeah they are all mostly quests and level grinding, at least in my opinion. What makes them so enjoyable to me, however, is doing that questing and grinding with friends. A truly good MMO would pepper some unique timed events as well to keep the experience fresh and give you a sense of accomplishment almost like "yeah I was there for that and it was cool".

To sum it all up, for me it comes down to who you play them with that defines your experience.
 
Depends on the MMO. WoW has its highs and its lows, but I'd still say it's been a fun ride through and through.

I can't say that for all of them though.

The generalizations are largely untrue at this point though. WoW has little/no grinding of any sort, very few quests to collect bear asses (except for the ones that make you literally collect bear asses) that aren't coupled with something else, and the combat at endgame is actually fun and requires decent group efforts if you do them with friends (the versions you can queue for with PUGs end up being a joke, but...).
 
MMOs are far more fun with friends. Playing with your brother could be ok but I would recommend trying to find a few more people maybe even GAF to chill with. If you join up with GAF they can offer advice and tips, show you the ropes and explain things. Some even have lower level characters to help out.

Do not go in expecting standard RPG game fair with cool single player stuff. Not really how it works.
 
MMOS are good games if they are open enough to allow the players to create the legends and lore in the game through interactions with each other. If it's just pve or really restrictive, then it's most likely to be utterly boring.
 
some are good, some arent, just like all games. they do however provide a level of depth and social interaction that few games can give you. If you like leveling up, killing shit, getting cool items, and doing it with friends you might enjoy them.
 
They can be good games, but they are heavily padded with time sinks.

It's a fine line to walk, having to balance it for the people who might play once a week, versus the people who play every day.
 
Absolutely. WoW, in fact, put me off most traditional RPGs after playing a substantial amount of it. Having gone from a game where the fights were actually challenging, my build mattered to the point that I needed to read up on it and understand the mechanics behind it, and, most importantly, encounters actually had some design and strategy to them to games where I could literally follow a flowchart to success in pretty much every encounter and my builds never matter felt like a huge downgrade. There is a ton of filler in the way, of course, to that hardcore raiding endgame experience and most guilds unfortunately look up the strats beforehand (this is the equivalent of reading a guide to every Zelda dungeon and boss before playing in my mind) so it's easy to miss the true quality of the game amidst the crap that people associate with the genre, but that potential is there and I don't feel like most single player RPGs can ever match the best content I've played in WoW, social aspect aside or not.

Edit: This thread is a perfect example. Every time the topic comes up, people talk about progression, the rewards, the social element, the sense of exploration, blah blah blah. No one ever talks about the real, true game underneath it all that gives all those elements a purpose because, to be fair, very few ever get to even see it. WoW makes you run through a super shallow RPG experience in the leveling to endgame run. Then you get a taste of that real encounter design in instances. Then, if you've stuck with it long enough, you might join a guild and see the real fights- the content that makes the game worth playing in the first place. (I'll note that all of this is based on my WoW experience, which ended after WotLK. I have no idea how the game is now.)

Boss Fight in WoW, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZEJA52NrgI Contrast this with the encounter design of, say, an FF or DQ. Even EO, which I like, and the older PC classics don't approach this level of almost puzzle like unique tactics.

I'm still waiting for the game that offers a single player WoW experience minus all the filler progression BS. Do it with a Baldur's Gate style perspective and control scheme, (real time management of a large party with a pause feature) simplify any one character's rotations to account for the fact that your player is now playing and coordinating all team members instead of just playing one, and structure it like Shadow of the Colossus, with unique boss encounter after unique boss encounter, no filler in between. Make respeccing both available and expected so as to be able to require different builds for each fight and encourage players to experiment. Hell, if Dota 2 ever gets substantial modding support, I might just try to make it myself as its perspective and heroes would be a decent foundation for this idea. (The Halloween Roshan boss even resembled the sorts of encounters I had envisioned, albeit at a extremely simplistic level.)
 
If you weren't around for the Everquest 1 days, then no, they're not as good now. The sense of wonder and discovery in the first 3D MMORPG with sometimes brutal penalties for dying and full community without bullshit copouts like voice chat rooms and automated auction houses was like nothing else.

Getting into it now is just disappointment in comparison. The solo-optional MMO's of today with everyone off in their own voice chats with their friends are garbage.
 
It's not that MMOs are inherently good as much as it is that there are good ones and bad ones.

The problem is that the best ones are going to either be ruined by the worst parts of the community or are going to be limited enough in scope to where the worst parts of the community can't ruin the game for everybody else.
 
I've yet to find an MMO I actually liked, I just can't stand the genre.

SWTOR being announced and thus effectively killing off KOTOR 3 had me salty as fuck.
 
Well, yeah. Of course there's "collect x amount of bear asses (and some bears don't have asses)" type of quests, but I wouldn't have put over a year of /played to WoW if it wasn't a good game.
 
Depends on the MMO. Some I've found extremely fun while some others not so great. The few I have spent some real time in, I've enjoyed them a lot. But, problem with them is they became the next big thing to create. And with them requiring subscription fees, becomes point where you can only pick up one or two (because don't forget, they take time too).

But, as usual, MMOs are more fun -- at least for me -- with friends.
 
If you weren't around for the Everquest 1 days, then no, they're not as good now. The sense of wonder and discovery in the first 3D MMORPG with sometimes brutal penalties for dying and full community without bullshit copouts like voice chat rooms and automated auction houses was like nothing else.

Getting into it now is just disappointment in comparison. The solo-optional MMO's of today with everyone off in their own voice chats with their friends are garbage.

Yep. I wish I could relive the first time I played DAoC again. Even traveling 5+ minutes down a road from the starter area to the nearest town was an adventure. MMOs today are becoming more streamlined and turning into walled gardens that it's hard to get a true sense of adventure. The public quest focus since WAR isn't helping things either.
 
MMO's definitely can be good games. Some of my personal favorites include:

Ragnarok Online - This was my very first MMO. It's a 10/10 for me. The classes, 2d character sprites in a 3d world, the music, the art, the pve AND pvp. (At least... during the alpha, beta, original release and even up to 2-2 jobs, this game holds the test of time for MMO's.) I still play this game every now and then. It just sucks how there are so many bots.

Ragnarok Online - Alpha Promo Video

Aion - I would still be playing this if the West gave it more attention and more of a budget. The game has an AMAZING asthetic to it, combat, classes are pretty cool but what really makes the game stand out, for me, are how detailed and flashy the combat animations look.

Aion's Crazy Combat Animations + general trailer

Phantasy Star Online & Phantasy Star Online 2 - Both amazing games. I played Phantasy Star Online originally on the Dreamcast but the BEST version was the Gamecube on. Episode 2 + offline multiplayer = nothing better for consoles at the time. Ever. Period.

Phantasy Star Online Episode 1 & 2 trailer

Phantasy Star Online 2 - Phonton Arts


Recently I've been debating-- and probably will-- go back to playing Guild Wars 2 (given all the updates they've been doing recently).

I would also add FFXIV 2.0 to that list as I REALLY want to play it but I have so much on my backlog and with my new job... makes paying to play a game seem kinda pointless.
 
Absolutely, but you gotta have the right guild that matches your playstyle that you consider fun. I consider fun in an MMO to be conquering high-level content at a pace that allows us all to talk and enjoy each other's conversation and such, with no one getting mad if mistakes are made.
 
Most MMO's are pretty horrible games when standing by themselves. (WoW, SWToR, Tera), but their whole appeal is the social interactions between the players. Ya know, the whole point of the genre!
 
A select few are, most aren't.

Most MMO's are pretty horrible games when standing by themselves. (WoW, SWToR, Tera), but their whole appeal is the social interactions between the players. Ya know, the whole point of the genre!
Eh, I have fun playing Runescape solo.
 
UO was a good example of how to make a good MMO by providing no quests at all when it came out. It would of been better if it didn't have all the game breaking bugs and server issues.

I played a ton but quit when they changed the entire game to accommodate a vocal minority of people who always complained. Since all they wanted to do was grind 24/7 without getting pked. These changes would of benefited me a lot since I also was pked almost all the time. But after the changes, it became sorta pointless since a lot of what gave the game character was gone.

I still have more memories of having fun with that game then any other PC game I've played.
 
If you find a great group of people to play with they can be pretty fun.

I've sworn off MMOs though, I've had my fill.
 
I'm not a fan of "MMOs" like World of Warcraft and Rift.

I enjoy "persistent world" shooters, like Defiance (which is technically a massively multiplayer online game and could be classified as an MMO, but I don't like to use the term because it has negative connotations)
 
MMOS are good games if they are open enough to allow the players to create the legends and lore in the game through interactions with each other. If it's just pve or really restrictive, then it's most likely to be utterly boring.
I'm not sure that counts as a good game; that'd be like calling NeoGaf a good game because the interactions of people here create stories.

For me, a good game requires good gameplay. Period.
 
I've been playing WoW for almost nine years. Yes they are fun. Even moreso if you have a decent guild and/or a couple of people to play in arenas.
 
I think they're fun! Most aren't super fast-paced so it's a relaxing thing to just run around doing a few quests for an hour, all while seeing progression (however small) for your time spent.
 
Depends on the MMO. A lot of recent ones are great fun by yourself but are more enjoyable in a group situation, with the ability to always do some of the group-orientated content a lot easier. Honestly its the only genre I keep coming back to and finding heaps of joy out of (besides obviously reviewing games as per my job).

The thing though that I can find troublesome is sometimes an MMO will kill it for you because either a mechanical feature doesn't work well for you -- ie combat can be bothersome or clunky -- or the gameplay just doesn't meld well causing me to get frustrated. If I feel like its a second job, I just won't play because what is the point.

Honestly though, MMO's offer a huge amount of content for a cheap price. I was playing WoW from launch in 2004 up until the launch of Cataclysm, and everyday that I played I enjoyed it. I'm currently playing Guild Wars 2 and awaiting Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn but I'm also participating in a few NDA betas including ESO and WildStar.

Final thing, the MMO genre will either hook you or it won't. Don't try to force it because if you do, you'll never enjoy yourself. Its why I don't review racings games!
 
I'm not sure that counts as a good game; that'd be like calling NeoGaf a good game because the interactions of people here create stories.

For me, a good game requires good gameplay. Period.

I'd say that MMOs serve a role more akin to a certain board and card games in some cases, where the game has to be competent and functional, but not necessarily amazing to provide a memorable experience. Cards Against Humanity, for example, is not exactly a rich, mechanically complex tabletop game, but it is a very effective social catalyst that allows for some pretty fun times with the right people.
 
Absolutely. WoW, in fact, put me off most traditional RPGs after playing a substantial amount of it. Having gone from a game where the fights was actually challenging, my build mattered to the point that I needed to read up on it and understand the mechanics behind it, and, most importantly, encounters actually had some design and strategy to them to games where I could literally follow a flowchart to success in pretty much every encounter and my builds never matter felt like a huge downgrade. There is a ton of filler in the way, of course, to that hardcore raiding endgame experience and most guilds unfortunately look up the strats beforehand (this is the equivalent of reading a guide to every Zelda dungeon and boss before playing in my mind) so it's easy to miss the true quality of the game amidst the crap that people associate with the genre, but that potential is there and I don't feel like most single player RPGs can ever match the best content I've played in WoW, social aspect aside or not.

Edit: This thread is a perfect example. Every time the topic comes up, people talk about progression, the rewards, the social element, the sense of exploration, blah blah blah. No one ever talks about the real, true game underneath it all that gives all those elements a purpose because, to be fair, very few ever get to even see it. WoW makes you run through a super shallow RPG experience in the leveling to endgame run. Then you get a taste of that real encounter design in instances. Then, if you've stuck with it long enough, you might join a guild and see the real fights- the content that makes the game worth playing in the first place. (I'll note that all of this is based on my WoW experience, which ended after WotLK. I have no idea how the game is now.)

Boss Fight in WoW, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZEJA52NrgI Contrast this with the encounter design of, say, an FF or DQ. Even EO, which I like, and the older PC classics don't approach this level of almost puzzle like unique tactics.

I'm still waiting for the game that offers a single player WoW experience minus all the filler progression BS. Do it with a Baldur's Gate style perspective and control scheme, (real time management of a large party with a pause feature) simplify any one character's rotations to account for the fact that your player is now playing and coordinating all team members instead of just playing one, and structure it like Shadow of the Colossus, with unique boss encounter after unique boss encounter, no filler in between. Make respeccing both available and expected so as to be able to require different builds for each fight and encourage players to experiment. Hell, if Dota 2 ever gets substantial modding support, I might just try to make it myself as its perspective and heroes would be a decent foundation for this idea. (The Halloween Roshan boss even resembled the sorts of encounters I had envisioned, albeit at a extremely simplistic level.)

Absolutely, I completely agree.

Before I played WoW, I was a huge critic and had this idea in my head that the game was a virtual e-peen meter in the form of loot, with gameplay that devolved into spamming auto-attacks and chain-casting your best nuke (you know, like a lot of popular traditional RPGs).

I had no idea that there were so many layers and genuinely unique mechanics. Some dungeons and encounters were just so cleverly designed, MMO or not. If only other games could have this level of attention to their mechanics and game design...

The only thing that mars the game (IMO) is its revenue model and the impact that has on the design. Subscription models incentivize making long games, dragging out content over many months. So much of the leveling process is a wasted opportunity, as are the weeks of farming the same content to move onto more interesting gameplay.

So, yes, OP, MMOs can be great, as can any genre; what matters is if the game in question has good design. And yes, WoW has some very good ideas embedded into its design, if you can wade through the time sinks. In terms of pure RPG gameplay mechanics, nothing beats clearing out a challenging dungeon while undergeared and/or underleveled with your friends.
 
Absolutely. WoW, in fact, put me off most traditional RPGs after playing a substantial amount of it. Having gone from a game where the fights was actually challenging, my build mattered to the point that I needed to read up on it and understand the mechanics behind it, and, most importantly, encounters actually had some design and strategy to them to games where I could literally follow a flowchart to success in pretty much every encounter and my builds never matter felt like a huge downgrade. There is a ton of filler in the way, of course, to that hardcore raiding endgame experience and most guilds unfortunately look up the strats beforehand (this is the equivalent of reading a guide to every Zelda dungeon and boss before playing in my mind) so it's easy to miss the true quality of the game amidst the crap that people associate with the genre, but that potential is there and I don't feel like most single player RPGs can ever match the best content I've played in WoW, social aspect aside or not.

Edit: This thread is a perfect example. Every time the topic comes up, people talk about progression, the rewards, the social element, the sense of exploration, blah blah blah. No one ever talks about the real, true game underneath it all that gives all those elements a purpose because, to be fair, very few ever get to even see it. WoW makes you run through a super shallow RPG experience in the leveling to endgame run. Then you get a taste of that real encounter design in instances. Then, if you've stuck with it long enough, you might join a guild and see the real fights- the content that makes the game worth playing in the first place. (I'll note that all of this is based on my WoW experience, which ended after WotLK. I have no idea how the game is now.)

Boss Fight in WoW, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZEJA52NrgI Contrast this with the encounter design of, say, an FF or DQ. Even EO, which I like, and the older PC classics don't approach this level of almost puzzle like unique tactics.

I'm still waiting for the game that offers a single player WoW experience minus all the filler progression BS. Do it with a Baldur's Gate style perspective and control scheme, (real time management of a large party with a pause feature) simplify any one character's rotations to account for the fact that your player is now playing and coordinating all team members instead of just playing one, and structure it like Shadow of the Colossus, with unique boss encounter after unique boss encounter, no filler in between. Make respeccing both available and expected so as to be able to require different builds for each fight and encourage players to experiment. Hell, if Dota 2 ever gets substantial modding support, I might just try to make it myself as its perspective and heroes would be a decent foundation for this idea. (The Halloween Roshan boss even resembled the sorts of encounters I had envisioned, albeit at a extremely simplistic level.)

I know saying it like that makes it sound deep, but using healium and deadly boss mods really makes it simple.
 
Good single player games?

No, not really.

The point is the community aspect.
 
This is like saying "Are FPSs good games?"

Would you have preferred "Is MMO a good genre"? Because you can imagine it like that if you wish, I just thought it sounded strange.

This is a question about the genre as a whole, so I think that the question in the title is valid, as is the one in your post. From what I see, they build off of one another mechanically, and there do tend to be inherent "MMO mechanics", so the question is do these mechanics make up a fun game?

For those answering for me specifically, I probably won't be playing with anyone but my brother. Can two people get far/have fun in WoW?
 
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