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[argon]

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/revolution.ars

Mostly a collection of what we already know, but it offers some interesting insight...

As for Nintendo, all the Nintendo developers are raving Revolution as a development platform. One expects a certain amount of this out of loyalty, but it is likely that it's quite easy to develop for. Its hardware is probably the most conventional of three, so that alone will make developers' lives easier.

Good news for 3rd party support, hopefully.

There are alot of factual inaccuracies with the article (i.e. "the two most-connected consoles, the PS3 and the Xbox 360, come standard with hard drive storage.".. uh..?) but I'm sure his email inbox is already overflowing with corrections.. heh

 

[Firest0rm]

Its pointless for them to do an article like this when almost everything is an assumption.

 

[Rhindle]

Some people have WAYYYY too much time on their hands.

 

[littlewig]

Fat Gabe must be happy.

Half-Life 3 Remote FTW!

 

[Vark]

bah, they're just compiling crap from interviews and the like. Nintendo's stated that the development tools are close to the Gamecube and that developers with gamecube kits can start on revolution games.

So it's easy enough to infer that the tools are the same. Take Gamecube kit, throw in faster PowerPC, throw in better ATI card. Add Ram. Done.

I'm sure there's some trickery here and there but the Gamecube environment was pretty friendly to begin with so it doesn't really make sense to re-invent the wheel. Plus keeps costs down.

 

[AndoCalrissian]

Where the hell is Shog shouting about vents and crap?

 

[Draft]

I actually just wrote a write up of the PS4. It's available on my website:

www.sweetgaminghardwareandnewsandshit.com

Totally based on what we know at the time.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Where the hell is Shog shouting about vents and crap?

Yeah...I wanna know what he thinks about those new "specs"...HA HA HA!

 

[ThunderEmperor]

Yeah...I wanna know what he thinks about those new "specs"...HA HA HA!

it would be nice to know what he thinks, also i think he might be right, considerig he is using common cpu technology to balacne out for nintendo needs, and also he did cite some sources that can not be revealed(which i just find funny lol)

 

[Amir0x]

Yeah...I wanna know what he thinks about those new "specs"...HA HA HA!

What specs? I see only random speculation, and the same general theme I've seen everywhere that speculates.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

What specs? I see only random speculation, and the same general theme I've seen everywhere that speculates.

Hence why I put the word "specs" in quotation marks! Maybe you haven't seen the new ones...they're in koam's So, what's next for the revolution? thread? I just think it'd be interesting to see what Shog has to say about them is all.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

Hence why I put the word "specs" in quotation marks! Maybe you haven't seen the new ones...they're in koam's So, what's next for the revolution? thread? I just think it'd be interesting to see what Shog has to say about them is all.

funny thing is that his article is easily leaning to the last rumored han solo spec of dual core at 2.5ghz with high L2 cahce, ati graphics card at close to 600 mhz. now han mentioned ppu, but if you take the so called atsari leaked specs and add the rumored enachned 550 gc cpu in there, then basically you have a ppu in the rev. interesting isn't it.

 

[WindyMan]

I would sure like to know where in the hell they've confirmed that "5.1 Dolby" figure. 5.1 isn't quite the same as Dolby Pro Logic II, which is (unfortunately) what the Revolution will probably have.

 

[AndoCalrissian]

funny thing is that his article is easily leaning to the last rumored han solo spec of dual core at 2.5ghz with high L2 cahce, ati graphics card at close to 600 mhz. now han mentioned ppu, but if you take the so called atsari leaked specs and add the rumored enachned 550 gc cpu in there, then basically you have a ppu in the rev. interesting isn't it.

Interesting, and perhaps even likely. Would give it enough next gen oomph for me, especially if the PPU/GCN cpu thing is true, because I'm sure it would be used to good effect in Mario.

 

[Mrbob]

Developers also said MS is offering the best software support of all the companies too to get the most out of the hardware.

Guess it depends on who you talk too.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

Developers also said MS is offering the best software support of all the companies too to get the most out of the hardware.

Guess it depends on who you talk too.

i guess it does, specially on the western side of the planet.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

Interesting, and perhaps even likely. Would give it enough next gen oomph for me, especially if the PPU/GCN cpu thing is true, because I'm sure it would be used to good effect in Mario.

yeah and if you go by hannibals theroization that the rev cores will be similar ppe core structure, then having a gcn chip there serves two functions, 1 for running physics( think about it a single 550 core chip solely for physic calculation), 2 for running gcn games without any stress and emulatiing n64 to nes.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

funny thing is that his article is easily leaning to the last rumored han solo spec of dual core at 2.5ghz with high L2 cahce, ati graphics card at close to 600 mhz. now han mentioned ppu, but if you take the so called atsari leaked specs and add the rumored enachned 550 gc cpu in there, then basically you have a ppu in the rev. interesting isn't it.

That dude at Ars Technica who wrote that article had some glaring mistakes on the PS3, 360 *and* Revolution front's The article also ended abruptly after his whole MS network vs Sony network rant (of which, I think had little to do with where he was originally going in comparing the hardware). Just on the Revolution side of things he totally ignored the 1T-SRAM that has already been confirmed for the system, he states things like Dolby 5.1 (and maybe even 7.1) & DVD being in the system when neither have been confirmed, he fails to mention that Bluetooth communication to the controller and he's missing some of the facts like Iwata stating specifically 480p and talking about Revolution's PC monitor output. There's other stuff I'm sure he's either missing or wrong about too...

He seems a pretty intelligent guy who knows how stuff works, but he needed to be more thorough about the facts before he started writing his artical. Comparing it to those recent "specs" it seems as though some of the ideas were in sync, but I think that's just coincidence and no indication of any truth.

And what about this han solo's "specs"...are they the same that were suppossed leaked in French by Atari (Infograms) just the other day?

My own thoughts: a beefed up GCN-on-a-chip for full BC and low developement would be cool...especially if it doubled as a PPU to Broadway. But would the Revolution shell really be big enough to house a 2.5GHz dual-core CPU + 600MHz GPU + 550MHz GCN/PPU + enough merritable memory to make such processors worthwhile???

 

[Mrbob]

You need to give up the PPU dream.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

That dude at Ars Technica who wrote that article had some glaring mistakes on the PS3, 360 *and* Revolution front's The article also ended abruptly after his whole MS network vs Sony network rant (of which, I think had little to do with where he was originally going in comparing the hardware). Just on the Revolution side of things he totally ignored the 1T-SRAM that has already been confirmed for the system, he states things like Dolby 5.1 (and maybe even 7.1) & DVD being in the system when neither have been confirmed, he fails to mention that Bluetooth communication to the controller and he's missing some of the facts like Iwata stating specifically 480p and talking about Revolution's PC monitor output. There's other stuff I'm sure he's either missing or wrong about too...

He seems a pretty intelligent guy who knows how stuff works, but he needed to be more thorough about the facts before he started writing his artical. Comparing it to those recent "specs" it seems as though some of the ideas were in sync, but I think that's just coincidence and no indication of any truth.

And what about this han solo's "specs"...are they the same that were suppossed leaked in French by Atari (Infograms) just the other day?

My own thoughts: a beefed up GCN-on-a-chip for full BC and low developement would be cool...especially if it doubled as a PPU to Broadway. But would the Revolution shell really be big enough to house a 2.5GHz dual-core CPU + 600MHz GPU + 550MHz GCN/PPU + enough merritable memory to make such processors worthwhile???

he made some mistakes, and i think he actually has noted them on the discussion boards n the article. yeah the atari and han slo specs seem the same, consdiering both had 2.5 dual cores and high end graphics cards, also han had ppu , while atari version was 550 gcn chip. personally i think have all that under the hood is possible specially with a signifcantly grat increace in the rev cache..

also what do you think of this suggestion for ati gpu for the rev, taken from the hannial discussion bord on his article by a poster called urian(it just a suggestion he put up there)

"The first technological announcement was the joint venture in the year 2003 between NEC and Nintendo for a System LSI.

The actual LSI design from NEC is the UX6 (100 milion transistors running at 1Ghz without problems) and the Hollywood will be the fusión of an ATI IP+UX6 from NEC. The only GPU with this is the ATI X1300.

If we take out the AVIVO core from the ATI X1300 and replaces it with more GPU Cache (using MoSys 1T-SRAM-Q for it) we obtain the Hollywood core that is a custom ATI X1300/RV515 running at 1Ghz and with large internal cache, thanks to this cache we can obtain a powerful Tile Renderer that supports Shader Model 3.0 with a very low price."

i think this is a good possiblity

 

[Drinky Crow]

haha, rev dual core

haha, rev cpu at > 2 Ghz

haha, rev ppu

so sad

 

[DrGAKMAN]

You need to give up the PPU dream.

"I have a dream today!"

ThunderEmperor...
What they're talking about is fine and dandy...as long as it's small, cheap, runs cool, runs quiet...'cos those are the specifications that Nintendo already has set in stone with the Revolution's case design. There have been rumors about Nintendo + NEC working closer together for a while now...NEC has been wanting to get back into the "game" for a while now and there were almost the CPU provider for "Dolphin" before Nintendo signed with IBM. Let's say this is somehow possible (this NEC 1GHz LSI + special ATi instructions = "Hollywood" GPU) then wouldn't that be pretty damn hot in a case with a comparitivly powered CPU when the case is as small as the Revolution's??? Even if Nintendo goes with the smaller 60nm process (monaymonaymonay...mooooooonay) for both chips, I still doubt they could yeild it to the small/cheap/cool/quiet requirements Nintendo wants.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

"I have a dream today!"

ThunderEmperor...
What they're talking about is fine and dandy...as long as it's small, cheap, runs cool, runs quiet...'cos those are the specifications that Nintendo already has set in stone with the Revolution's case design. There have been rumors about Nintendo + NEC working closer together for a while now...NEC has been wanting to get back into the "game" for a while now and there were almost the CPU provider for "Dolphin" before Nintendo signed with IBM. Let's say this is somehow possible (this NEC 1GHz LSI + special ATi instructions = "Hollywood" GPU) then wouldn't that be pretty damn hot in a case with a comparitivly powered CPU when the case is as small as the Revolution's??? Even if Nintendo goes with the smaller 60nm process (monaymonaymonay...mooooooonay) for both chips, I still doubt they could yeild it to the small/cheap/cool/quiet requirements Nintendo wants.

we keep misusing thatg cool queit satement here, has much as i can tell I hear no nosie from my gcn, so it defintely cools quitely. and i would bet that is what they are going for . i mena when you play with your gcn do you actually here the fan go on. the think i hear the most on my gcn is the damn disk spinning. i think it is very possible to cool as quite as the gcn, which mind you is old tech nocooling, and better cooling measures are out there. i am just saying that all i mentioned is possible . and with respect to the ati chip suggestion. comsidering the sli is already out there, it is not to diffcult to fabricate that for the rev.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

How would the PPE affect backwards compatibility with Gamecube software??


A PPE(Which has to be in 64 bit according to IBM documentation) is still somewhat different from older 32-bit parts and cannot guarantee full BC.

Notice that Nintendo included an ARM7 core inside the DS ASIC even though the DS's cpu is an ARM9 which in theory could run all ARM7 titles.



could this be a suggested reasiong for having gcn chips in rev, consdering i can't remeber the sorce that nintendo is getting gcn chips at $5 now from IBM.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

That is a relevant question. Nintendo planned to make the Revolution BC with GCN all the way down to the damn DigiCard memory card slots...such perfect BC would suggest that Broadway is strong enough to emulate the GCN by itself, or Nintendo simply is putting a Gekko in the Revolution. When playing ROM's, GCN games & low level Revolution games, the Gekko is used. When higher level Revolution games are being proccessed by Broadway why not have the Gekko act as Broadway's "helper" either by being it's co-processor or even it's PPU? If it were a PPU, that would allow Broadway to do more even with less speed/power than competing CPU's.

There's mystery surrounding the whole Nintendo/NEC/ATi/UX6 GPU theory though. I googled it and there has been no announcement between NEC/Nintendo about using UX6 or anything pertaining to Revolution. The only thing close was at a game forum that was sorta hard to decifer:

http://www.game-tricks.net/viewtopic-43139.html

 

[ThunderEmperor]

That is a relevant question. Nintendo planned to make the Revolution BC with GCN all the way down to the damn DigiCard memory card slots...such perfect BC would suggest that Broadway is strong enough to emulate the GCN by itself, or Nintendo simply is putting a Gekko in the Revolution. When playing ROM's, GCN games & low level Revolution games, the Gekko is used. When higher level Revolution games are being proccessed by Broadway why not have the Gekko act as Broadway's "helper" either by being it's co-processor or even it's PPU? If it were a PPU, that would allow Broadway to do more even with less speed/power than competing CPU's.

There's mystery surrounding the whole Nintendo/NEC/ATi/UX6 GPU theory though. I googled it and there has been no announcement between NEC/Nintendo about using UX6 or anything pertaining to Revolution. The only thing close was at a game forum that was sorta hard to decifer:

http://www.game-tricks.net/viewtopic-43139.html

it would make sens eif it is true that nec x1300 is using ux6 sli, i don't have the specs sheet for all the new ati cards, can you get those. but the assumition on the gcn cheap in teh rev is spot on to what i am thinking. the cost of adding gcn cheep is next to nothing for nintnedo, this helps then develop a low power efficent cpu for the rev that can co-work with the gcn chip as an effect ppu tyoe mechnise to boost performace without puting out such high power yeild.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

That is a relevant question. Nintendo planned to make the Revolution BC with GCN all the way down to the damn DigiCard memory card slots...such perfect BC would suggest that Broadway is strong enough to emulate the GCN by itself, or Nintendo simply is putting a Gekko in the Revolution. When playing ROM's, GCN games & low level Revolution games, the Gekko is used. When higher level Revolution games are being proccessed by Broadway why not have the Gekko act as Broadway's "helper" either by being it's co-processor or even it's PPU? If it were a PPU, that would allow Broadway to do more even with less speed/power than competing CPU's.

There's mystery surrounding the whole Nintendo/NEC/ATi/UX6 GPU theory though. I googled it and there has been no announcement between NEC/Nintendo about using UX6 or anything pertaining to Revolution. The only thing close was at a game forum that was sorta hard to decifer:

http://www.game-tricks.net/viewtopic-43139.html

now you mentiuoned the digicard slot. come to think of it. i have a strong feeling that the rev will have gcn chip in the rev, it will make backwards compataile perfect becasue it is a gcn, also gcn cheap was created to be reduced later for handled game, what if it has been reduced bbut for the rev to allow BC like you suggested.


maybe it me but the atari leaked specs is starting to make sense in my head. we have all be clamoring on it can't fit in there, but the psp has a clos to gcn power chip at 333mhz in there, so why can't rev have 2.4 dual core in there with 2 -4 threads per cylce and a gcn chip to give extra boost.

 

[ThunderEmperor]

bump

 

[Chittagong]

maybe it me but the atari leaked specs is starting to make sense in my head. we have all be clamoring on it can't fit in there, but the psp has a clos to gcn power chip at 333mhz in there, so why can't rev have 2.4 dual core in there with 2 -4 threads per cylce and a gcn chip to give extra boost.

leaked atari stuff??

 

[ThunderEmperor]

leaked atari stuff??

Cpu:
Two core 2.4 - 2.5 Ghz
30% increase of performance over standard PowerPC
128MB gddr3 (main memory)
4MB 1T-Sram used to store polygons without textures
4:1 - hardware compression - compresses 512 MB to 128MB

GC CPU @ +/- 550 Mhz
28 MB + 8MB 1T-sram used with the new GameCube CPU.
Useful for the emulation of GameCube and older games.

Game Prices for Revolution equal to current games.
Can optimise graphics for past games?
Small Developers can use newer GC processor with special effects
^ equals cheaper low end games.

Hardware Compression ratio
512/128 = x/1

128x = 512 * 1
128x = 512
128x/128 = 512/128
x=4
512/128 = 4/1?


taken from a french translation, so it doesn't come out to accurate.

 

[Mrbob]

Those of you still thinking Revolution PPU, read up on this:

http://www.gamershell.com/articles/901.html

Aegia supporting PS3 is nice, but having a seperate physical PPU processor will be the way to go. This gen is too soon, but when we are talkign PS4 etc. I say the inclusion of a PPU processor will be a reality. Right now it is just too cost intensive to include:

The developers are given an SDK to develop with and they can do it both in software and hardware, so if you dont have the PPU card you can still play the game. The card will be available in both PCI and PCI Express at a price range of about 250-300 dollars.

I'm really excited about this PPU card. I hope PC developers get fully behind it. I'll probably pick one up myself when I upgrade my PC, and I hope it is around the 100 dollar price range by then.

 

[Version 3.0]

The Super Nintendo had a PPU... :lol

CPU: Custom 65C816 at 3.58 MHz
RAM: 128 Kb
Max Colors on Screen: 256
Max Sprites: 128, 32 per scanline
Sound Channels: 8 ADPCM
Sound Memory: 64 Kb
More specs from an old nintendo.com website:

Central Processing Unit (CPU) - 16-bit (main 'brain' of the system)
Work RAM for CPU - 128 Kilobytes (CPU temp. storage)
Picture Processing Unit (PPU) - 16-bit (generates all of the graphics)
Video RAM for PPU - 64 Kilobytes (temp. storage for the PPU)
Maximum Colors on One Screen - 256
Total # of Colors Available - 32,768
Maximum Screen Resolution - 512 pixels X 448 pixels
Maximum # of Sprites per Screen - 128
Maximum # of Sprites per Line - 32
Maximum Sprite Size - 64 pixels X 64 pixels
Minimum Sprite Size - 8 pixels X 8 pixels
Scrolling Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal
Audio Processing Unit (APU) - 8-bit (main sound processor) producing 16-bit sound
Pulse Code Modulator (PCM) - 16-bit (converts digital information from the game pak into sound)
Number of Sound Channels - 8
Clock Speed - 3.58, 2.68, and 1.79 Mhz
Software RAM - YES
AC Adapter:
Super NES - Input
Super NES Output - 120 Volts AC, 60 Hertz, 17 Watts
10 Volts DC, 850 mA

 

[AndoCalrissian]

Those of you still thinking Revolution PPU, read up on this:

http://www.gamershell.com/articles/901.html

Aegia supporting PS3 is nice, but having a seperate physical PPU processor will be the way to go. This gen is too soon, but when we are talkign PS4 etc. I say the inclusion of a PPU processor will be a reality. Right now it is just too cost intensive to include:



I'm really excited about this PPU card. I hope PC developers get fully behind it. I'll probably pick one up myself when I upgrade my PC, and I hope it is around the 100 dollar price range by then.

I think the current theory is that if the supposed leaked atari specs are true, that the advanced GCN processor could work as a PPU for Revolution games. I'm not sure if this would work or not though.

 

[Fafalada]

maybe it me but the atari leaked specs is starting to make sense in my head.

I just read it for the first time today - honestly, I can't immediately dismiss it as nonsense cuz it at least has some basis in reality for a change.
And the utterly bizarre memory segmentation and weird processor decisions kinda sounds like a Nintendo hw design too. But I'd still suspect it's fake because of the silly PR remarks, and the CPU configuration just doesn't sit well with me.

In other words - I'd expect real thing to be a cleaner design then that. Who knows though.

 

[capslock]

I just read it for the first time today - honestly, I can't immediately dismiss it as nonsense cuz it at least has some basis in reality for a change.
And the utterly bizarre memory segmentation and weird processor decisions kinda sounds like a Nintendo hw design too. But I'd still suspect it's fake because of the silly PR remarks, and the CPU configuration just doesn't sit well with me.

In other words - I'd expect real thing to be a cleaner design then that. Who knows though.

Were there no details about the GPU in these so called 'leaked' specs?

 

[DrGAKMAN]

I just read it for the first time today - honestly, I can't immediately dismiss it as nonsense cuz it at least has some basis in reality for a change.
And the utterly bizarre memory segmentation and weird processor decisions kinda sounds like a Nintendo hw design too. But I'd still suspect it's fake because of the silly PR remarks, and the CPU configuration just doesn't sit well with me.

In other words - I'd expect real thing to be a cleaner design then that. Who knows though.

Umm...are you Falafalkid? Sorry, had to ask.

Anyways, I think these "specs" were translated twice from an original "source" that might not have even known what he was talking about. At first translation I read it as 5 seperate processors, but if you look at it closely it's sounding like Hollywood, Broadway & a beefed up GCN chip for perfect BC. The glaring thing that makes it most questionable isn't that though...it's the ca-razy idea that Nintendo would use X360's graphics chip...that's assinine.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Were there no details about the GPU in these so called 'leaked' specs?

No...just that Nintendo was either using X-BOX 360's GPU or going ahead with creating their own "Hollywood" (which the "source" notes would cost Nintendo more?)...again...assinine idea.

 

[Mrbob]

I think the current theory is that if the supposed leaked atari specs are true, that the advanced GCN processor could work as a PPU for Revolution games. I'm not sure if this would work or not though.

Well that wouldn't be any different than Xbox 360 using one of its core of PS3 using its PPE. Actually both of those would run faster than an advanced GCN processor.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Well that wouldn't be any different than Xbox 360 using one of its core of PS3 using its PPE. Actually both of those would run faster than an advanced GCN processor.

Yes, but if the architecture is designed this way from the start then I think performance could be better. Think of it like this: X360 has 3 cores...so if a game is developed with one of those cores dedicated to being a PPU, than wouldn't the X360's CPU be only 2/3 of what it could be? In comparison, the theory of the GCN CPU doubling as a PPU would still leave Broadway at 100%.

 

[Fafalada]

Umm...are you Falafalkid? Sorry, had to ask.

Ermm... kid?

Anyway I didn't see anything about GPU so I didn't comment on that. The stuff you mentioned that was supposedly said degrades the credibility of these 'specs' further though.

Frankly, I always pictured GC compatibility would be handled by the main CPU - most extensions Gekko had over standard 750series core would still serve just fine on other designs (whether 970fx, or the PPE), so main CPU could be natively compatible without much fuss. Granted, I don't know how modular IBMs newer designs are - and I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to reuse a higher clocked 750 core for that purpose.
But if that bit is right, memory configuration is all over the place in these IMO.

 

[deadhorse32]

I just read it for the first time today - honestly, I can't immediately dismiss it as nonsense cuz it at least has some basis in reality for a change.

For curiosity sake, which part has "some basis in reality" ?

*wait forever*

 

[Fafalada]

For curiosity sake, which part has "some basis in reality" ?

Well - the Gekko being included is not completely out of the question. Heck some people believe it will be THE main CPU - and Nintendo did make some comments that sort leave that possibility open.
And 128MB of memory kinda fits with what I personally expect. The memory configuration sounds absurd - but then so does the one in NDS when you first read it. It's probably fake - but I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to use heavily segmented approach.

Assuming a PPE based core, dual core @ ~2Ghz is not out of the question (I feel 2.5Ghz would be pushing it though, just a guess based on XeCPU thermal characteristics).

It's not convincing overall, but it's a big improvement from "Quad core G5 @ 2.6Ghz" type of nonsense that was popular before

 

[deadhorse32]

Well - the Gekko being included is not completely out of the question. Heck some people believe it will be THE main CPU - and Nintendo did make some comments that sort leave that possibility open.
And 128MB of memory kinda fits with what I personally expect. The memory configuration sounds absurd - but then so does the one in NDS when you first read it. It's probably fake - but I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to use heavily segmented approach.

Assuming a PPE based core, dual core @ ~2Ghz is not out of the question (I feel 2.5Ghz would be pushing it though, just a guess based on XeCPU thermal characteristics).

It's not convincing overall, but it's a big improvement from "Quad core G5 @ 2.6Ghz" type of nonsense that was popular before

Thanks