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[gofreak]

So far developers in the middle say they are similar, the ones on each others camps spin their BS and say theirs is better.

Just a side note, but we've had very few devs comment on the matter fullstop, let alone many saying they're similar in power. Amongst those that have commented, though, that's certainly not the consensus. Some are also more particular/exacting than others.

 

[Haklong]

Then you shouldn't be that defensive. Oh that Huddy guy either. Besides if you don't exactly know the real games on PS3 then just STFU.

Defensive? I'm not the idiot swearing at people. You think I have a vested interest in MS? Sorry if you took me for a retarded fanboy such as yourself but I'm not. My point was pretty simple. If you can't argue with it then you should STFU. I'm not a 360 fanboy and making a comment on what I see shouldn't equal that. If you want to jump head first and defend a system that hasn't been finalized then go the fuck ahead. It was his comment about Gear of War that made me feel the need to comment. It's what we do here. But I guess If I sound confident about the 360 that automatically makes me a MS fanboy and my opinion becomes null right. Asshat.

 

[AndreasNystrom]

Its like asking Mercedes, what they think of BMW or the other way around..

 

[Borys]

"MGS4 will probably be the best looking PS3 game!"
- Speevy, stealthy trashing the PS3

Jesus FUCKING Christ, Speevy.

You got "owned", proved wrong, bitchslapped with your blatant Xbox fanboism countless times in this thread and you're still going?

Where the hell do you work? MS PR Division? Marketing?

Just stop it, stop it right now.

"Wow, Speevy, neither the PS3 nor MGS4 are out. Drop the agenda."
- GAF

 

[Haklong]

Just a side note, but we've had very few devs comment on the matter fullstop, let alone many saying they're similar in power. Amongst those that have commented, though, that's certainly not the consensus. Some are also more particular/exacting than others.

True, not enough of them have made comments for me to make a statement like that. I just think we should reserve final judgement for when the PS3 is actually out.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Defensive? I'm not the idiot swearing at people. You think I have a vested interest in MS? Sorry if you took my for a retarded fanboy such as yourself but I'm not. My point is that was pretty simple. If you can't argue with it then you should STFU. I'm not a 360 fanboy and making a comment on what I see doesn't shouldn't equal that. If you want to jump head first and defend a system that hasn't been finalized then go the fuck ahead. It was his comment about Gear of War that made me feel the need to comment. It's what we do here. But I guess If I sound confident about the 360 that automatically makes me a MS fanboy and my opinion becomes null right. Asshat.

Wow....

 

[Haklong]

Fatal Inertia does not look like an xbox game, maybe you've seen stills or low-rez vids but I've my kikizo hd trailer right in front of me. That game rivals motorstorm in some shots/scenes(environment-feel wise, not particle wise) and the vehicles and water effects are very smooth looking, not to mention this is probably another 60fps non-final dev. kit demo.

Is it the trailer that was shown at E3? Because Gamespot has gameplay footage dude. Someone is actually playing it I believe and it does not look like the E3 trailer.

 

[KingJ2002]

I would like to ask the following questions and see if anyone can answer them.

1. If you think the PS3 will outpreform the Xbox 360... by how much will it do so? (with current knowledge of each platform of course)

2. Will it be noticable to the common gamer?

 

[seanoff]

removing all the fanboy banter here, ATI need to employ someone to run their PR. Streching the truth, leaving things unsaid etc all part of the PR amoury, saying shit that is plain wrong and proveably so, stupid and likely to get an opposite effect to the one you want.

I can imagine a short sharp e-mail exchange from Epic to ATI along the lines of F*** You.

As for the rest of this discussion, lets face it we have no idea. People who are likely to know some/all of what is being discussed here are very unlikely to say anything.

 

[McFly]

Of course only a guess:

1. If you think the PS3 will outpreform the Xbox 360... by how much will it do so? (with current knowledge of each platform of course)
Nearly two to four times. Two if Cell is used mostly for non-graphics stuff and four if a lot o SPU's take up graphics stuff.

2. Will it be noticable to the common gamer?
I don't care about the "common gamer", I just care about the games I will play and my very own impressions of them and yes, I think it will be noticable for me.

Fredi

 

[thorns]

I would like to ask the following questions and see if anyone can answer them.

1. If you think the PS3 will outpreform the Xbox 360... by how much will it do so? (with current knowledge of each platform of course)

2. Will it be noticable to the common gamer?

1. No. They both will be better at certain areas, given that they're programmed well. The different specs will be completely irrelevant in the "big picture". (except fanboy screenshot/trailer wars on forums).

2. No.

 

[Haklong]

Wow....

I'm like Guts fool, I go Berserk...

I should have your avatar.

 

[BlueTsunami]

I'm like Guts fool, I go Berserk...

I should have your avatar.

Its all good. Sometimes a little anger is good

 

[elostyle]

2-4 times :lol Yeah right.... no.

I'm gonna say that not many people will notice a difference if any.

Here's your proof:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=76456&highlight=dithering

 

[gofreak]

1. If you think the PS3 will outpreform the Xbox 360... by how much will it do so? (with current knowledge of each platform of course)

No one can give a general, one-size-fits-all answer to that. Every game will be doing something different, a different of mix of things. If you break it down to specific tasks - some will perform pretty similarly, in some there may be several times the difference or more.

 

[Forsete]

1. If you think the PS3 will outpreform the Xbox 360... by how much will it do so? (with current knowledge of each platform of course)

2. Will it be noticable to the common gamer?

1. Yes - ~1.6781 times .. No really, hard to say. But I think the PS3 is more powerful, no doubt.

2. Well, my brother is what you might call a common gamer, he says he can’t see the difference between a 525p and a 720p signal. So I have no idea, the important bit is that I can tell the difference.

 

[Raven.]

Is it the trailer that was shown at E3? Because Gamespot has gameplay footage dude. Someone is actually playing it I believe and it does not look like the E3 trailer.

Nah tgs trailer, and I forgot it's from gametrailers not kikizo. I must admit the gameplay vids from gamestop are lacking in the speed department, environment wise they're the same, the second gameplay vid at the beginning shows things from a decent distant and it looks good, but I've to admit up close those mountains do look less impressive.

2. Will it be noticable to the common gamer?

With the "sabotage 360 plan" in action you betcha

 

[Doom_Bringer]

what an awesome thread!

 

[Haklong]

what an awesome thread!

Seriously. It got Mark Rein to comment on it so you know it's special in it's ignance. :lol

 

[fortified_concept]

1. No. They both will be better at certain areas, given that they're programmed well. The different specs will be completely irrelevant in the "big picture". (except fanboy screenshot/trailer wars on forums).

2. No.

The discussion in this thread is circular because if I reply "The difference is pretty fucking obvious from what we've seen so far" thorns will reply something in the parametres of "360 hasn't shown its true potential - future 360 games will look a LOT better (while PS3 games won't look any better than MGS4 ever, according to that logic)" and then I will have the same argument I had with Speevy. So here's what I'll do. I'll direct you to page four:

http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=77662&page=4&pp=50

where the whole argument started.

 

[open_mouth_]

The PS3 will be more powerful than the Xbox 360, but not to a point where the best looking PS3 games look head and shoulders over the best looking 360 games. In fact, the best of both systems will look very similar, imo.

DISCUSSION OVER.

 

[BlueTsunami]

DISCUSSION OVER.

Ohhhh nooooo.....not yet. Still got more to go

 

[Doom_Bringer]

The PS3 will be more powerful than the Xbox 360, but not to a point where the best looking PS3 games look head and shoulders over the best looking 360 games. In fact, the best of both systems will look very similar, imo.

DISCUSSION OVER.

how old are you?

 

[McFly]

Discussion is only over for thorns, he got trapped into an endless loop by fortified_concept. :lol

Fredi

 

[Haklong]

how old are you?

Dude why are you posting...he said it was over. :lol

 

[fortified_concept]

Discussion is only over for thorns, he got trapped into an endless loop by fortified_concept. :lol

Fredi

:lol:lol:lol

 

[open_mouth_]

how old are you?

what does it matter? When a thread is over, it's over.

(I'm 24, btw).

 

[Cuth]

Of course only a guess:

1. If you think the PS3 will outpreform the Xbox 360... by how much will it do so? (with current knowledge of each platform of course)
Nearly two to four times. Two if Cell is used mostly for non-graphics stuff and four if a lot o SPU's take up graphics stuff.

Just to put things into perspective, how much do you think Xbox outperforms PS2? And Gamecube?

 

[McFly]

Less than two times. However, it's hard to say as the Xbox outperforms the PS2 in a completely different way than (I guess) the PS3 will outperforms the 360. While the PS2 was able to do certain things better than the Xbox, I don't think there will be anything where the 360 will perform better than the PS3, maybe equally, but not better.

The Gamecube for me was always about the Nintendo games, so no performance comparisions from me.

Fredi

 

[Draft]

I think the PS3 will be 3.7 times stronger than the X360 because that's what the bones told me.

 

[Beowvlf]

No one can predict right now with any sort of accuracy whether or not the PS3 will be able to output better visuals than the 360, because it comes down to 2 seperate factors. One, what is the RSX? Is it simply a tweaked G70 (which would definitely keep the cost of the system down) or is it 1/2 G70, 1/2 G80? Or is it a G70 with console specific modifications?

Those answers remain unknown for now. The second point, is just how well the Xenos holds up. People forget that USA is a completely new architecture, and while ATI can spout a ton of theoreticals and possibilites, no one knows if the card can live up to it. Personally, I have a hard time believing ATI got it perfectly right on the first go, but still I wouldn't put it past them. The Xenos could possibly be a liability in the sense that it may not perform up to expectations. Or, it could be ahead of its time.

What isn't debatable IMO, is that the PS3 will easily trump the 360 in areas such as animation and physics, thanks to the Cell. These will go unnoticed by a ton of gamers, but IMO, is the true signal of the next gen. The cooperation between the RSX and the Cell will also be another factor that will allow the PS3 to do things the 360 simply can't match, though I don't think we'll see stuff like that for another 2-3 years.

 

[Draft]

So you would say that the cell will finally allow game developers to drive us through the full range of emotion?

An "emotion engine" if you will?

 

[Haklong]

No one can predict right now with any sort of accuracy whether or not the PS3 will be able to output better visuals than the 360, because it comes down to 2 seperate factors. One, what is the RSX? Is it simply a tweaked G70 (which would definitely keep the cost of the system down) or is it 1/2 G70, 1/2 G80? Or is it a G70 with console specific modifications?

Those answers remain unknown for now. The second point, is just how well the Xenos holds up. People forget that USA is a completely new architecture, and while ATI can spout a ton of theoreticals and possibilites, no one knows if the card can live up to it. Personally, I have a hard time believing ATI got it perfectly right on the first go, but still I wouldn't put it past them. The Xenos could possibly be a liability in the sense that it may not perform up to expectations. Or, it could be ahead of its time.

What isn't debatable IMO, is that the PS3 will easily trump the 360 in areas such as animation and physics, thanks to the Cell. These will go unnoticed by a ton of gamers, but IMO, is the true signal of the next gen. The cooperation between the RSX and the Cell will also be another factor that will allow the PS3 to do things the 360 simply can't match, though I don't think we'll see stuff like that for another 2-3 years.

And there it went. LOL.

The animation thing came into it again. And the "co operation" between the RSX and the Cell like you have the damn dev unit in front of you right now. Please save it for the developers when the games come out...seriously.

I don't see the Cell being able to calculate animation or physics that the 360 CPU cannot. Since when did a 3 CORE CPU with 2 threads each become a celeron? It is such a BS assumption. Animation will always be a development issue. We will see crap animation on both platforms and we will also see great animation on both. Same with physics. People eat Sony PR by the truckloads. Both sides do actually. Let's form opinions when we see the PS3 in stores.

Physics will still be an engine based issue and that will be solved by developers using things like the Havoc engine for their games and tweaking it just to save on the cost.

Question, if a person has a 1.2 GHz CPU on their PC, and one has a 3 GHz... does the physics engine in HL2 just turn off on the slower one?

Again, it's all about the developers making the games.

 

[McFly]

So you would say that the cell will finally allow game developers to drive us through the full range of emotion?

An "emotion engine" if you will?

I think the keyword will be "physic based rendering".

Fredi

 

[gofreak]

I don't see the Cell being able to calculate animation or physics that the 360 CPU cannot. Since when did a 3 CORE CPU with 2 threads each become a celeron?

No one is saying that. Why is that if someone says something differentiatingly positive about PS3, some seem to take it that this means X360 is crap? This isn't a binary thing. There's such a thing as powerful, and more powerful.

Physics will still be an engine based issue and that will be solved by developers using things like the Havoc engine for their games and tweaking it just to save on the cost.

Question, if a person has a 1.2 GHz CPU on their PC, and one has a 3 GHz... does the physics engine in HL2 just turn off on the slower one?

No, but it would scale, downward. Middleware is being optimised for each platform - it will not level the playing field between them. If you heard what various people from AGEIA were saying before MS and their own PR effectively gagged them, they were indicating a pretty large difference between the platforms when it comes to physics, and how they'll perform on them. And they're the ones making one of these engines.

 

[Arsynic]

You know, Mark, threatening to pull all UE3 support from X360 would probably go a long way in getting ATI to issue a retraction/clarification to their rather inflammatory and incorrect comments that they presented in that rather slanderess and libel-infested interview.

Stop pretending like Ken Kutaragi hasn't done the same to the Xbox 360. The "Xbox 1.5" shit didn't come from the fucking media, you know.

 

[Deg]

Stop pretending like Ken Kutaragi hasn't done the same to the Xbox 360. The "Xbox 1.5" shit didn't come from the fucking media, you know.

But dont we like people like Kutaragi who try to make games look better? and doesnt believe in diminishing returns

 

[Haklong]

No one is saying that. Why is that if someone says something differentiatingly positive about PS3, some seem to take it that this means X360 is crap?



No, but it would scale, downward. Middleware is being optimised for each platform - it will not level the playing field between them. If you heard what various people from AGEIA were saying before MS and their own PR effectively gagged them, they were indicating a pretty large difference between the platforms when it comes to physics, and how they'll perform on them. And they're the ones making one of these engines.

Dude, this is what he put

"What isn't debatable IMO, is that the PS3 will easily trump the 360 in areas such as animation and physics, thanks to the Cell."

I just don't see that happening. I see avantages in the PS3, and where there might be some in the 360, we won't know until the PS3 is finalized, is all I'm saying.

I've seen HL2 run on a slower machine. The physics where the same. The FPS took a hit when a lot went on.

Again, my defending the 360 is being taken as being a fanboy so I'm gonna stop. I'm looking forward to the PS3, I just think a lot of the comments are just overboard. And I'm wrong to do so I guess because Heian-kyo says nothing but great things about the 360 at all times.

 

[gofreak]

Dude, this is what he put

"What isn't debatable IMO, is that the PS3 will easily trump the 360 in areas such as animation and physics, thanks to the Cell."

I just don't see that happening. I see avantages in the PS3, and where there might be some in the 360, we won't know until the PS3 is finalized, is all I'm saying.

I've seen HL2 run on a slower machine. The physics where the same. The FPS took a hit when a lot went on.

I'd agree with him on the physics bit.

On HL2, you were looking at a game designed with a certain minimum spec requirement. A game designed to scale gracefully. They couldn't build around the latest CPUs and they didn't. Applying that logic to games built for closed boxes like consoles doesn't cut it. If you want to see scaling physics on the PC side, then perhaps watch for differences in games that use the upcoming PhysX chip (when running with it, vs without it). They've already demoed the differences - throw thousands of rigid bodies around on a dual-core CPU vs a PhysX chip, and you'll see the difference. Even then, it's still not a comparable situation, really.

 

[Arsynic]

architecturally, it is. a shame about its r420ish performance, though.

Yeah and Cell will be a crappy gaming CPU, so says the same author (Anand). I mean if you take his analysis of one console as gospel then to be consistent, you have to accept his analysis of another console.

 

[Hyllian]

 

[Haklong]

I'd agree with him on the physics bit.

On HL2, you were looking at a game designed with a certain minimum spec requirement. A game designed to scale gracefully. They couldn't build around the latest CPUs and they didn't. Applying that logic to games built for closed boxes like consoles doesn't cut it. If you want to see scaling physics on the PC side, then perhaps watch for differences in games that use the upcoming PhysX chip (when running with it, vs without it). They've already demoed the differences - throw thousands of rigid bodies around on a dual-core CPU vs a PhysX chip, and you'll see the difference. Even then, it's still not a comparable situation, really.

Agreed. I read and saw a lot of those demos. Even the Mark Rein interview on Gamespot. How Ageia will use the PS3 as it's lead platform and all that. I just think the whole graphics/physics will be the end all show of the systems power and so on and so forth. I can see the 360 handling those also. I think it will come down to each developer using what the systems can do. Doesn't mean when the PS3 hits it might not be more powerful, less powerful, or equal. We will have to see when it comes out to be sure I guess.

Exclusive games will show what each can do while multiplatform games will use similar engines. That was part of my point.

This thread went from ATI spouting PR crap to physics engines...

 

[TheDuce22]

This thread went exactly as expected. GAF never dissapoints. :lol

 

[Haklong]

Still not as painful as a Gamespot/Gamefaqs thread.

 

[gofreak]

Agreed. I read and saw a lot of those demos. Even the Mark Rein interview on Gamespot. How Ageia will use the PS3 as it's lead platform and all that.

PS3 is not AGEIA's lead platform. PhysX is their own chip, but that asides, they don't have a lead platform. It's in their interests to be the best they can be on every system.

Exclusive games will show what each can do while multiplatform games will use similar engines. That was part of my point.

"similar engines"/middleware are not an equaliser. AGEIA on PS3 should perform quite differently than AGEIA on X360, by their own admission. It's like saying AGEIA on a dual core CPU will provide the same capability and experience as AGEIA on a PhysX chip, just because it's all AGEIA. This is not the case, at all. Middleware can take advantage of hardware's strengths, and highlight that, and in fact I expect the easiest ticket for most devs to start tapping a decent amount of Cell's power early on will be via these engines.

 

[Haklong]

PS3 is not AGEIA's lead platform. PhysX is their own chip, but that asides, they don't have a lead platform. It's in their interests to be the best they can be on every system.



"similar engines"/middleware are not an equaliser. AGEIA on PS3 should perform quite differently than AGEIA on X360, by their own admission. It's like saying AGEIA on a dual core CPU will provide the same capability and experience as AGEIA on a PhysX chip, just because it's all AGEIA. This is not the case, at all. Middleware can take advantage of hardware's strengths, and highlight that, and in fact I expect the easiest ticket for most devs to start tapping a decent amount of Cell's power early on will be via these engines.

My bad dude. I know they are using it on many platforms. I'm typing tired here.

 

[Nerevar]

No one is saying that. Why is that if someone says something differentiatingly positive about PS3, some seem to take it that this means X360 is crap? This isn't a binary thing. There's such a thing as powerful, and more powerful.

As a sidenote, you need to realize that there really isn't. PS3 and Xbox360 are the only two horses in the race now that Nintendo is off doing their own weird thing. If PS3 is "more powerful", then xbox360 is "less powerful", which is like a personal insult to an xbot's mother. You just can't do things like that and not expect to rile up the Microsoft army.

 

[sprsk]