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[dorio]

What are the features you're mostly proud of in the xbox 360 GPU? Did you made any compromises?

I think the three key features of Xbox 360 graphics technology are as follows: First and foremost we have a “unified shader architecture”. No other console or PC chip can boast this. And what, in short, it means is that the hardware is always able to run at 100% efficiency. All previous hardware has separate vertex and pixel shaders. That means that that previous hardware just had to hope that the vertices and pixels came in just about the right ratios. If you got too many pixels then the vertex engines would be idle, and if you got too many vertices then the pixel engines would starve instead. It’s not uncommon for one part of the chip to be starved of work for a large majority of the time – and that’s obviously inefficient. With a unified architecture we have hardware that automatically moulds its-self to the task required and simply does whatever needs to be done. That all means that the Xbox 360 runs at 100% efficiency all the time, whereas previous hardware usually runs at somewhere between 50% and 70% efficiency. And that should means that clock for clock, the Xbox graphics chip is close to twice as efficient as previous graphics hardware.

Next on my list is the hardware support for directly accessing memory from within the shader units. This makes the Xbox graphics chip work in a much more flexible way than has ever been possible before. Now it’s relatively simple for a games developer to write code to do anything inside the graphics chip that they could do elsewhere. Accessing memory in arbitrary ways sounds like a very esoteric thing to do within a graphics chip, but actually it allows you to do some amazing things which mean that Xbox 360 games will be more like movies than you ever imagined. It’s so powerful that I’d say that this feature alone makes the Xbox 360 technically superior to any other console planned for the next five years.

Last on the list, but also of great importance is the “intelligent memory”. In cooperation with NEC we’ve designed some special memory that knows some of the key operations of 3D graphics. It’s the memory it-self which understand anti-aliasing, Z buffering and stencilling. These are three operations which normally slow graphics chips down more than anything else. We designed related capabilities into the memory for The GameCube for Nintendo, but the Xbox 360 hardware takes this idea to its logical conclusion and means that the quality of image that you’ll see from Xbox 360 games will always be mind-blowing.

ATI is working with Nintendo on their future console Revolution. Why the developing team of the Revolution VPU has no connections with the other teams at ATI?

It would be very handy for ATI to share this information around between its various groups – but doing so would undermine the relationships that we have with the individual console companies. It’s important to Microsoft that it they suggest or request a feature in their graphics chips for their console that this doesn’t automatically mean that Nintendo get that for free too. And of course, it applies the other way round too, Nintendo need to be able to make their hardware design without fear that it could simply be copied by Microsoft. No console company would work with us without these rules.

http://www.gamestar.de/magazin/specials/hardware/26071/index.html

 

[jarrod]

Xbox 360 = GameCube 2

 

[Firest0rm]

"It’s so powerful that I’d say that this feature alone makes the Xbox 360 technically superior to any other console planned for the next five years."

Does this mean ATI's Rev chip is weaker?

 

[blahness]

paraphrased: omg xbox360 is the shiznit, ps3 is using nvidia chip so they suck, and we cant tell you about the revoultion. kthx drv thru.

 

[StRaNgE]

anyone know why thethread with the picture of the fancy shiney remote got locked up?

the blue light had me so mezmorized... :lol

 

[Gahiggidy]

"It’s so powerful that I’d say that this feature alone makes the Xbox 360 technically superior to any other console planned for the next five years."

Does this mean ATI's Rev chip is weaker?

Next generation is gonna suck for Nintendo fans.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

I think the Xbox 360 GPU would have been in the Nintendo Revolution if Nintendo had wanted to spend the money .

 

[Gahiggidy]

I think the Xbox 360 GPU would have been in the Nintendo Revolution if Nintendo had wanted to spend the money .

How much does that chip cost?

 

[Mrbob]

Xbox 360 = GameCube 2

Naw, that's the Revolution. Xbox 360 is Gamecube 2.5!

 

[gofreak]

I think the Xbox 360 GPU would have been in the Nintendo Revolution if Nintendo had wanted to spend the money .

Interestingly, ATi has previously said that MS and Nintendo were on similar budgets..

It'll be interesting to see how Rev turns out. I half expect it to be more powerful than Nintendo's letting on - Gamecube was indeed quite a lot more powerful than they suggested at the time. Then again, they've a pretty tight space to fit into. It'll be interesting to watch.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

Interestingly, ATi has previously said that MS and Nintendo were on similar budgets..

No way. I mean you honestly believe that? :lol I'm not even going to comment on the fact that the Revolution would have to have Liquid Nitrogen in it to cool this GPU in that tight of a space.

 

[akascream]

No way. I mean you honestly believe that? :lol I'm not even going to comment on the fact that the Revolution would have to have Liquid Nitrogen in it to cool this GPU in that tight of a space.

Yeah, and batman is cool.

 

[Calidor]

well, since revo wont be using HD, i think is safe to say that rev dont need such powerful CPU/GPU as Xbox360 for show similar graphics

 

[jarrod]

No way. I mean you honestly believe that? :lol I'm not even going to comment on the fact that the Revolution would have to have Liquid Nitrogen in it to cool this GPU in that tight of a space.

Sure we believe ATi... why shouldn't we? I mean, it's not like the more talented ATi team is working on Hollywood with at the very least an 8 month delay over the Xenos schedule or anything. 8 months is practically nothing for GPU timelines, right?

 

[God's Hand]

Laugh now, but Revolution is quite a capable machine. Can't wait till it's all revealed before years end.

 

[Deku]

Interestingly, ATi has previously said that MS and Nintendo were on similar budgets..

It'll be interesting to see how Rev turns out. I half expect it to be more powerful than Nintendo's letting on - Gamecube was indeed quite a lot more powerful than they suggested at the time. Then again, they've a pretty tight space to fit into. It'll be interesting to watch.

Nintendo doesn't play the number BS game. They never have and their graphic specifications have always been very conservative.

THat said, too little is known about Rev to make any solid pronouncements either way, although boosters for rival consoles would love to write it off now. But you only need to look at the DS situation to see how writing off a platform prematurely turns out.

That said, Nintendo had one big advantage at E3. They sat by the sidelines while MS and Sony pulled out their wangs to compare the size. If, and it's an "if" Nintendo was truly going for the stealth approach, they would go back to ATI and IBM and suggest changes or go for the more powerful route and just come out with a hardware that is far more powerful than is suggested and blindside sony and ms.

Whatever the case, Nintendo has a chance to have a good look at what Sony and MS are doing without letting on very much. No matter how you cut it, it wasn't a fair exchange of information and it may come back to haunt the other two.

 

[PhatSaqs]

It'll be interesting to see ATI comments when asked about Rev vs. 360 GPUs in the future.

 

[krypt0nian]

Laugh now, but Revolution is quite a capable machine. Can't wait till it's all revealed before years end.

ok Aries :lol

 

[Deleted member 284]

I think ATI is just underestimating the Rev chip...seeing as how its coming out later, why kill the sales opportunity for the Xbox 360.

Anyhow, I knew this was going to happen. Before when it was understood that Nintendo's chip is coming out later (and possibly would be more powerful since it will be later tech) many Xbox fans were saying: "well graphics tech wont really see much difference next gen." Now that the first part of pr comes out saying great things about the 360 chip (and literally nothing about the Rev chip) the 360 fans are suggesting that the Rev will be less powerful. Predictable.

 

[jarrod]

Naw, that's the Revolution. Xbox 360 is Gamecube 2.5!

But Xbox 360 = Xbox 1.5... does that mean GameCube 1 > Xbox 1? :lol

 

[turok4n64]

Laugh now, but Revolution is quite a capable machine. Can't wait till it's all revealed before years end.

who are you?

 

[Mrbob]

I think ATI is just underestimating the Rev chip...seeing as how its coming out later, why kill the sales opportunity for the Xbox 360.

Anyhow, I knew this was going to happen. Before when it was understood that Nintendo's chip is coming out later (and possibly would be more powerful since it will be later tech) many Xbox fans were saying: "well graphics tech wont really see much difference next gen." Now that the first part of pr comes out saying great things about the 360 chip (and literally nothing about the Rev chip) the 360 fans are suggesting that the Rev will be less powerful. Predictable.

This doesn't matter too much. Depends on the goals of each company. MS needs to have a GPU in mind for a $299 box while it sounds like Nintendo needs a low heat solution for a $199 box with the Revolution. If the Revolution was on par with current gen consoles why isn't Nintendo pushing for HD resolutions?

Also, regarding the R300 chipset which lead to the sweet 9700 core, this was developed by the ATI West team which included *some* former artx staff.

Who knows, maybe Xenos is the new R300. ATI does want to go down the unified shader route for the future.

 

[Gahiggidy]

How much does that chip cost?

^^^
Answer the question.

 

[Gahiggidy]

But Xbox 360 = Xbox 1.5... does that mean GameCube 1 > Xbox 1? :lol

Well, I'll give you a clue...

Can Xbox 1 play games in 720p? Yes.

Can N Rev. play games in 720p...?

 

[dorio]

If I'm Nintendo then I certainly wouldn't want the company I'm contracted too saying that my competitor's product will be more powerful. Everyone suspected this but its certainly uncommon for a company having 2 competitors as customers to come out and say that. That situation usually requires a no comment even when the question is asked directly.

 

[gofreak]

If the Revolution was on par with current gen consoles why isn't Nintendo pushing for HD resolutions?

It'll be interesting to see the technical gains they might make elsewhere when they can factor in the assumption that it'll never be used for HD resolutions. The savings made because of that design choice could be spent elsewhere, perhaps. Crazy AA and scene post-processing could be big on Rev.

That's assuming they don't just cash those savings for dollars, however..

 

[bigNman]

Does this mean ATI's Rev chip is weaker?

It would be very handy for ATI to share this information around between its various groups – but doing so would undermine the relationships that we have with the individual console companies.

The guy does not have a clue about Revolution's gpu so no it does not mean its weaker.

 

[Mrbob]

It'll be interesting to see the technical gains they might make elsewhere when they can factor in the assumption that it'll never be used for HD resolutions. The savings made because of that design choice could be spent elsewhere, perhaps. Crazy AA and scene post-processing could be big on Rev.

That's assuming they don't just cash those savings for dollars, however..

Heh, this is true. But Nintendo loves piling up that warchest and then not spending the money so who knows? Would it be tough for Nintendo to incorporate EDRAM onto the system like the X360 GPU at this stage of the game? The EDRAM gives free 2XAA and only like a 5 percent hit for 4XAA, right?

 

[GaimeGuy]

The resolution of graphics output is directly proportional to the overall system power, including, but not limited, to: CPU, GPU, sound card, physics, storage medium, input method, EVERYTHING!

And overall system power is directly proportional to the quality of a system's game library. See: Every handheld ever made by Nintendo, Playstation, and Playstation 2.

 

[midnightguy]

Next on
my list is the hardware support for directly accessing memory from within
the shader units. This makes the Xbox graphics chip work in a much more
flexible way than has ever been possible before. Now it's relatively simple
for a games developer to write code to do anything inside the graphics chip
that they could do elsewhere. Accessing memory in arbitrary ways sounds like
a very esoteric thing to do within a graphics chip, but actually it allows
you to do some amazing things which mean that Xbox 360 games will be more
like movies than you ever imagined. It's so powerful that I'd say that this
feature alone makes the Xbox 360 technically superior to any other console
planned for the next five years.

OMFG.... PS3 graphics, ATI's own Revolution graphics: OWNED. :lol

 

[gofreak]

Heh, this is true. But Nintendo loves piling up that warchest and then not spending the money so who knows? Would it be tough for Nintendo to incorporate EDRAM onto the system like the X360 GPU at this stage of the game? The EDRAM gives free 2XAA and only like a 5 percent hit for 4XAA, right?

Well GC had eDram, IIRC. So it wouldn't be all too surprising if its successor did also. And it's likely their full frame would fit in that eDram, unlike on X360, which would reduce further the performance hit for tonnes of AA and other post-processing. Asides from the bandwidth saving, there's also the computational saving of working with fewer pixels..a third fewer than X360 has to handle, for example, at 720p so assuming something relatively equal in power, you could potentially do a lot more stuff with each pixel in terms of postprocessing if not more.

This might be what Nintendo is talking about in terms of cost to developer and customer..not necessarily dollar cost, but cost vs what could be done in terms of power with a lower resolution, especially given that the majority of customers won't be playing your game in HD. Of course, on the other consoles you can throw out a SD picture if you want (well technically anyway, I don't think MS or Sony wants that), but if you build your system around that, you may make further gains.

That said, SD users will see big gains also in terms of IQ with respect to PS3 and X360 simply because of the higher resolution being outputted, even though they can't view it. High res imaged downscaled to SD = automatic and "free" AA for SD users, even if no AA was used originally (and no AA at 1080p, for example, doesn't too bad at all either - more resolution is in fact the most direct solution to aliasing. Some of the games Sony showed at E3 had no AA, but there wasn't much complaint about jaggies, was there? )

 

[akascream]

Well GC had eDram, IIRC. So it wouldn't be all too surprising if its successor did also.

Especially with backwards compatibility in mind. 2-3 times the power of gamecube isn't a ringing endorsement for pure emulation, so there are probably a lot of hardware similarities (like DS and GBA).

 

[COCKLES]

I remember when James Cameron described the T-1000 as being a slick Porsche killing machine compared to Arnold's brute force Tank-like CMS-101.

360 = T1000
PS3 = Model 101
Rev = Johnny 5

 

[Deleted member 284]

This doesn't matter too much. Depends on the goals of each company. MS needs to have a GPU in mind for a $299 box while it sounds like Nintendo needs a low heat solution for a $199 box with the Revolution.

Also, regarding the R300 chipset which lead to the sweet 9700 core, this was developed by the ATI West team which included *some* former artx staff.

There is still nothing to suggest that the Rev will be off lower price and/or quality. Everything is just an assumption now. And your too smart MrBob to come off like an analyst.

Isn't Nintnedo still working with Dr Yan/Yen? If so then I'm not worried about the team Nintendo has.

 

[WordofGod]

I have known for more then 1 year that the Revolution GPU will only be 20% the power of the Xbox GPU. Nintendo went to ATI with the plan of producing the new hardware very cheap just like all of their previous consoles they have made. =[

 

[dorio]

The guy does not have a clue about Revolution's gpu so no it does not mean its weaker.

Why wouldn't he have a clue about the Revolution's gpu?

 

[Firest0rm]

Why wouldn't he have a clue about the Revolution's gpu?

Because the teams are different?

 

[Gahiggidy]

I have known for more then 1 year that the Revolution GPU will only be 20% the power of the Xbox GPU. Nintendo went to ATI with the plan of producing the new hardware very cheap just like all of their previous consoles they have made. =[

What?!

Did the GameCube not beat the PS2 hands down while being $100 cheaper? Why can't the same thing happen between the 360 and Revolution, which is coming out a full year later?

 

[Deleted member 284]

I have known for more then 1 year that the Revolution GPU will only be 20% the power of the Xbox GPU. Nintendo went to ATI with the plan of producing the new hardware very cheap just like all of their previous consoles they have made. =[

Please shut up.

 

[Prine]

I remember when James Cameron described the T-1000 as being a slick Porsche killing machine compared to Arnold's brute force Tank-like CMS-101.

360 = T1000
PS3 = Model 101
Rev = Johnny 5

:lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[dorio]

Because the teams are different?

But he's not part of the xbox team either. I'm sure he knows what's going in the company much more than anyone on the outside.

 

[Redbeard]

First and foremost we have a “unified shader architecture”. No other console or PC chip can boast this.

Is this implying that Revolution won't use a unified shader architecture?

 

[Deku]

The Rev GPU isn't being done by ATi's traditional team. It's done by ArtX which ATI acquired just as the GameCube was about to ship. The ArtX team in turn was made of former SGI members who worked on the N64.

Different teams and given Nintendo's secrecy, I doubt very many people in ATi even know what the chip is all about.

 

[3rdman]

Is this implying that Revolution won't use a unified shader architecture?

Well, thats not really surprising is it. Nintendo chose ATI long beofre MS came along...I imagine that they went to them with the idea of a cost effective solution before MS came along and asked for the moon. Since MS came later and since the teams are working seperately and without communication, it's not surprising at all to hear this.

 

[ge-man]

It's funny to see how seriously this article is being taken, while at the same time looking at the B3D folk tear apart because for some of the questionable stats that are thrown out. This is PR guys. We saw the same thing last generation, we'll see in future generations.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Well, thats not really surprising is it. Nintendo chose ATI long beofre MS came along...I imagine that they went to them with the idea of a cost effective solution before MS came along and asked for the moon. Since MS came later and since the teams are working seperately and without communication, it's not surprising at all to hear this.

Although by the same logic, they don't know what the ArtX team is up to and thus cannot say for certain whether the Revolution chipset has those features.

Basically, this is more of that news about nothing that sports columnists love to write about.

 

[Deku]

It's funny to see how seriously this article is being taken, while at the same time looking at the B3D folk tear apart because for some of the questionable stats that are thrown out. This is PR guys. We saw the same thing last generation, we'll see in future generations.

Yeah, I've see B3D articles posted here ONLY if it benefits some graphic whores world view. But when official PR gets torn apart by them, the official line at GAF graphic whores is see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

they don't know what the ArtX team is up to

There is no Art-X team at ATI anymore. They split them up.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Xbox 360 = GameCube 2

It does seem that way, and that is what I like most about the X360 hardware.....very efficient, it seems...

It is also obvious (to me) that Nintendo is sandbagging Rev. performance....2-3X GCN performance???

Nah, that would make it the smallest ever performance jump between generations of any Nintendo console product!!!

It will be similar in performance to X360, I would think.....

 

[J2 Cool]

I remember when James Cameron described the T-1000 as being a slick Porsche killing machine compared to Arnold's brute force Tank-like CMS-101.

360 = T1000
PS3 = Model 101
Rev = Johnny 5

:lol :lol :lol I'm sorry but T1000 was more bad ass than Tiger Wood's golf on 360. Also, Arnold wins.