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Avernum: Escape from the Pit |OT| They threw you in. Now make them pay
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
Wouldn't use the word nice to describe any of Spiderweb's games. I don't mind it's 2D or simple-looking, but they're all so drab and unimaginative, like no one hired an actual artist to design the look of the game, which is probably the case.
I can play an old isometric cRPG any day without a problem in the graphics department, mostly because all of them had an interesting and captivating art style, even with the 640x480 resolution, etc.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
They look nice enough, as in, not actually repulsive, which the first games could be accused of being.
The improvements over the years have been enough for me to jump in.
They can't afford a Black Isle caliber team of artists to make every inch of a screen a unique work of art a la Icewind Dale and co.
Try the big demo.
The improvements over the years have been enough for me to jump in.
They can't afford a Black Isle caliber team of artists to make every inch of a screen a unique work of art a la Icewind Dale and co.
Try the big demo.
This really isn't an excuse anymore. It's not about the sophistication of the art assets, just that the art direction in itself sucks. Eschalon has pleasant graphics, and there's other indie stuff like the Soldak games, the upcoming Age of Decadence etc. that all have nice graphics and most likely not a much bigger budget.
It would help if Jeff wasn't churning out one game a year with rehashed graphics or as a straight-up remake and instead took a bit more time to develop one really nice game. But it doesn't matter cause he has his established fanbase and they'll buy it no matter how lazy he gets.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
It's a reality, not an excuse.
Eschalon doesn't look much better outside the lighting and is a much lesser game than anything I've played from Spiderweb.
They would benefit from spending less time on the visual flair that is still far below most of the classics and more on the meat of it.
There's no guarantee doing what you propose would result in enough sales to make up for the lack of income for a longer period.
I don't think he's been lazy just because the improvements aren't up to your standards. It's just an opinion and others disagree.
Oh hey, we just had that conversation in page 1 too.
And it's that fanbase that has allowed him to be in business for 15 years or whatever, I don't see the harm in satisfying that.
And Avadon was an original game, not any sort of remake.
It's not like I'm saying it would be bad if it looked better, I just don't think it looks repulsive as you do. Feel free to disagree.
I even said that in my opinion the GUI is a small step back from Avadon, even. I wonder if fans can edit that.
Keep pimping that Eschalon though, I'm sure they really need it. I was about as hyped as you with the first game's reveal, it was only after I finished it that I started coming to my senses, while still being hopeful for its future, and then I finally stopped caring after finishing the second and seeing they did little to improve it beyond bumping the resolution to 1024x768, once again focusing on the visuals more than anything else. I'll still see how the third is going to turn out but yeah, no high hopes this time. I wonder if they're still cooking up those two other projects that would finally feature a party based system as they mentioned in 2009.
Eschalon doesn't look much better outside the lighting and is a much lesser game than anything I've played from Spiderweb.
They would benefit from spending less time on the visual flair that is still far below most of the classics and more on the meat of it.
There's no guarantee doing what you propose would result in enough sales to make up for the lack of income for a longer period.
I don't think he's been lazy just because the improvements aren't up to your standards. It's just an opinion and others disagree.
Oh hey, we just had that conversation in page 1 too.
And it's that fanbase that has allowed him to be in business for 15 years or whatever, I don't see the harm in satisfying that.
And Avadon was an original game, not any sort of remake.
It's not like I'm saying it would be bad if it looked better, I just don't think it looks repulsive as you do. Feel free to disagree.
I even said that in my opinion the GUI is a small step back from Avadon, even. I wonder if fans can edit that.
Keep pimping that Eschalon though, I'm sure they really need it. I was about as hyped as you with the first game's reveal, it was only after I finished it that I started coming to my senses, while still being hopeful for its future, and then I finally stopped caring after finishing the second and seeing they did little to improve it beyond bumping the resolution to 1024x768, once again focusing on the visuals more than anything else. I'll still see how the third is going to turn out but yeah, no high hopes this time. I wonder if they're still cooking up those two other projects that would finally feature a party based system as they mentioned in 2009.
Sir Garbageman
Member
Are Avadon the Black Fortress and Avernum: Escape from the pit the only two spiderweb games that utilize the updated graphics engine?
Are they planning on re-releasing all his other games?
Are they planning on re-releasing all his other games?
The last game they ported to the iPad wasn't so hot. I found playing it on my iPad that the device got bulky and uncomfortable after about 15 minutes of play.
Oh god yes, Geneforge with updated visuals please. I'll triple dip, promise!
Conciliator
Banned
I'm totally cool with the visuals, but he needs to write new mechanics from scratch. I'm so sick of the same spells, skills, progression, etc.. There's nothing wrong with it...well, OK, there's a good bit wrong with it but it's decent, but I just want something new. As soon as he does that I'm back on board for a game or two. No, no giving the same spells new names and adding beyond basic talent trees. Give me a whole new system.
Haunted
Member
I thought the first screen was from Avadon at first glance, same assets and all.I read on the forums he removed closing doors function from all versions just cos it didn't work right on iPad or something. I hate that sort of thing. Anyway, I got it, already downloaded over Steam, good price and stuff. but I'll need to make time to finish Avadon first. I'm near the end but kept getting distracted and now I've already started the Fallout games and PST, lol...
Oh, and downloading Legend of Grimrock from gog...
Edit: I started it up at least. Pretty nice first impression with the setting and class choices and stuff. Except the GUI elements which hide much more of the view for no good reason since the functionality outside the log is almost the same as it was in Avadon. But I probably won't mind as much when I get my bigger monitor fixed/replaced and can play in higher resolution again. I can't imagine playing it on 1024x768 though, I'm glad I waited for the PC version instead of getting it for my iPad2. Actually, it may not even be great on the new iPad, everything may be too small if it runs on its native resolution. Also, I didn't know the overworld is scaled JRPG style.
Vs Avadon
He should have kept the GUI as is imo. Maybe even ditch the fluff like telling me the portraits are the roster and the map is the map. Like duh.
Edit: oh, I just noticed the first dude's portrait background isn't as transparent as it's supposed to be, small glitch I guess, it will probably be fixed.
Edit: or it indicates he's the party leader I guess? Or it's the highlighted character, and out of combat the first always is so. I dunno yet. Weird anyway.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
They're the only ones using the latest engine but Geneforge 5 and Avernum 6 both look pretty good. Although I'm not sure if I'd recommend diving into Geneforge with the fifth game, hehe.
freenudemacusers
Member
hmm, well I'll find out tonight
And tbh I doubt I'll get much more than 15-30 minutes at a time anyway. I haven't played a SpidWeb game in wow... 8 years?
cicero
Member
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I do not understand claims that Eschalon looks better then the recent Spiderweb games. If anything this looks worse to me:
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
All it has is better lighting. Real time day/night cycle and torches and other light sources light a few feet ahead etc.
Otherwise the tiles and sprites aren't better, just different, more obviously CG pre-rendered etc.
For the rest of what I think of it see my previous posts.
The engine feels quite nice playing them, it's the games they made with it so far I'm not too fond of anymore.
That must be an old screen though (or early of the next sequel?) it looked like this when I last played.
If your screen is of the new game, yeah, they need to rethink that new GUI. But at least they finally allow high res.
Otherwise the tiles and sprites aren't better, just different, more obviously CG pre-rendered etc.
For the rest of what I think of it see my previous posts.
The engine feels quite nice playing them, it's the games they made with it so far I'm not too fond of anymore.
That must be an old screen though (or early of the next sequel?) it looked like this when I last played.
If your screen is of the new game, yeah, they need to rethink that new GUI. But at least they finally allow high res.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
As for the graphics overall, I guess I subconsciously place things into eras and judge them like that. I haven't been a PC gamer for years and years (beyond FPS) so I don't have that in my mind. I place something like Planescape Torment in the PS1 era, but being completely tile-based makes me put Spiderweb games into the SNES era. Compared to nearly any other tile-based graphics game I know, they look pretty damn good.
Aside from the lower standard, there is an entirely different philosophy that I perceive. Especially when considering how ogres and dragons display at roughly the same size as humans, it seems like it's replicating the board game concept. In this you want things to be clean and easily discernible. They certainly achieve this, and manage to look less garnish and more cohesive than other, similar games.
Even looking at other PC RPGs that I had a passing experience with through the years, HoMM3 comes to mind since I had watched my friend play it at his house. Compared to this, the sprites in Spiderweb games are smaller, but the art and atmosphere is much better. Even comparing to non-RPGs that are tile based, like city builders, I think they are quite alright. And of course, everything it's being compared to had large budgets and many artists. This is a team of three people. Three.
So I suppose that's the context of where my subconscious draws lines of expectations. For them to do better would either be a minor upgrade or changing the entire engine to leave tile-based graphics. They are getting more popular, so maybe they will be able to do this eventually, but I certainly don't think it can be expected of them now and it was definitely impossible for these current releases.
Aside from the lower standard, there is an entirely different philosophy that I perceive. Especially when considering how ogres and dragons display at roughly the same size as humans, it seems like it's replicating the board game concept. In this you want things to be clean and easily discernible. They certainly achieve this, and manage to look less garnish and more cohesive than other, similar games.
Even looking at other PC RPGs that I had a passing experience with through the years, HoMM3 comes to mind since I had watched my friend play it at his house. Compared to this, the sprites in Spiderweb games are smaller, but the art and atmosphere is much better. Even comparing to non-RPGs that are tile based, like city builders, I think they are quite alright. And of course, everything it's being compared to had large budgets and many artists. This is a team of three people. Three.
So I suppose that's the context of where my subconscious draws lines of expectations. For them to do better would either be a minor upgrade or changing the entire engine to leave tile-based graphics. They are getting more popular, so maybe they will be able to do this eventually, but I certainly don't think it can be expected of them now and it was definitely impossible for these current releases.
Confidence Man
Member
The level of detail is quite nice, I just wish there was some atmosphere. I mean it's an underground cave world, it should be somewhat dark at least. As it is it's like playing in fullbright mode where lighting hasn't been implemented. Even just Arcanum-level graphics would be great.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Haha, so I knew they had three people from one of Jeff's blog posts, but I checked for more info and...
Definitely time to cut them some slack, or buy their games if you hope to ever see them have dedicated professional art direction.
They don't even have an artist.
Definitely time to cut them some slack, or buy their games if you hope to ever see them have dedicated professional art direction.
Sniper McBlaze
Member
Is that Samuel. L. Neanderthal Jackson in the OP picture?
cicero
Member
I would definitely Kickstart him $15 or $20 to allow him to hire an artist or two.
omg is that book 3?I do not understand claims that Eschalon looks better then the recent Spiderweb games. If anything this looks worse to me:
I fucking hated this:
All it has is better lighting. Real time day/night cycle and torches and other light sources light a few feet ahead etc.
Otherwise the tiles and sprites aren't better, just different, more obviously CG pre-rendered etc.
For the rest of what I think of it see my previous posts.
The engine feels quite nice playing them, it's the games they made with it so far I'm not too fond of anymore.
That must be an old screen though (or early of the next sequel?) it looked like this when I last played.
If your screen is of the new game, yeah, they need to rethink that new GUI. But at least they finally allow high res.
kind of screen, especially when I have a 1920x1200 monitor.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
No, I'm pretty sure mine was an older shot from Book II. I haven't played the games in ages, and I went googling for a screen to make sure that my memory wasn't off, but I completely missed the barebones interface in the one I posted.
EDIT: Whoop, no, looks like the shot I posted is tentatively from Book III
EDIT: Whoop, no, looks like the shot I posted is tentatively from Book III
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Seriously thinking of jumping over to this. I agree with Redbeard so Avadon is looking like it's going to get boring. There are just enough enemies to not be bored out of my mind, but not enough to be interesting and the missions just have way too much running around and too little happening. If Avernum really is a game of quests like Skyrim, it'd be much better. As for why I agree with Redbeard...
Mmmmm... that was a good rant. I really hope it gets better, and that Avernum is very different.
Every place is like "wah wah, our traditions!" when their traditions are always barbaric shit. All their suffering seems to come from trying to live the way they always did under changed rules. If you decided to change the rules, it must have been because the old ways were busted. Oh, but you just want them to magically work while you act the same way and only reap however the rules benefit you? Well too fuckin bad, princess! Not only are you all STILL little bitches getting your ass whooped from every single slightly powerful asshole, but guess who keeps saving you? Yeah, that's right, us.
And if you think it'd be bad without us, think harder, if all the powerful people didn't align with Avadon, guess what they'd be doing? Kicking YOUR ass as well! It'd be chaos, just like Redbeard says, and they'd all be looking out for their own. But with Avadon, they are looking out for all. But all these little bitches don't want to get with the program and move past their barbaric shit, and then they complain that Avadon doesn't do enough while not lifting a finger to HELP Avadon do more.
SOOOO many RPGs are like this, with every non-hero person being a stupid little bitch who has no larger understanding of the world and no desire to seek it. No, I am not going to suddenly start caring about your shitty problems just because I am aware of how they work. 95% of the time they come from you being little bitches, so if you don't give me a good reason to think saving you will result in you being something OTHER THAN little bitchs, maybe I'm okay with you dying from whatever shit you got yourselves into.
And if you think it'd be bad without us, think harder, if all the powerful people didn't align with Avadon, guess what they'd be doing? Kicking YOUR ass as well! It'd be chaos, just like Redbeard says, and they'd all be looking out for their own. But with Avadon, they are looking out for all. But all these little bitches don't want to get with the program and move past their barbaric shit, and then they complain that Avadon doesn't do enough while not lifting a finger to HELP Avadon do more.
SOOOO many RPGs are like this, with every non-hero person being a stupid little bitch who has no larger understanding of the world and no desire to seek it. No, I am not going to suddenly start caring about your shitty problems just because I am aware of how they work. 95% of the time they come from you being little bitches, so if you don't give me a good reason to think saving you will result in you being something OTHER THAN little bitchs, maybe I'm okay with you dying from whatever shit you got yourselves into.
Mmmmm... that was a good rant. I really hope it gets better, and that Avernum is very different.
Rather lengthy look at the game by RPS.
I agree with him that there are some annoying usability issues here and there. To add a couple more that he doesn't mention:
- most games in this genre will highlight the appropriate slot on your paper doll model when you're holding an item so you know where to equip it
- need more spell quickslots
Overall pretty positive review though.
I agree with him that there are some annoying usability issues here and there. To add a couple more that he doesn't mention:
- most games in this genre will highlight the appropriate slot on your paper doll model when you're holding an item so you know where to equip it
- need more spell quickslots
Overall pretty positive review though.
I've found myself getting confused by some things in this game that never bothered me in Avadon
Everything is just a little bit too small, with no way to zoom in. No way to adjust the music volume. Greater color variety within individual ground tiles makes it harder to detect when an item is on the ground result in checking the inventory much more often. Outside of ending a fight, I'm not sure how to heal up MP.. I'm not sure what the classes do beyond the genre standard archetypes...it took me a while to realize that there was a second tab on the level up screen due to the UI them, etc.
Just a bunch of nagging little things that are making this experience harder to get into than with Avadon.
Everything is just a little bit too small, with no way to zoom in. No way to adjust the music volume. Greater color variety within individual ground tiles makes it harder to detect when an item is on the ground result in checking the inventory much more often. Outside of ending a fight, I'm not sure how to heal up MP.. I'm not sure what the classes do beyond the genre standard archetypes...it took me a while to realize that there was a second tab on the level up screen due to the UI them, etc.
Just a bunch of nagging little things that are making this experience harder to get into than with Avadon.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay, exams are over, summer has started, I finally actually bought this game myself and started it up. The new introductory segment is a nice addition, serves as a good combat lesson, and as I start exploring around and finding quests I'm definitely enjoying myself, but mostly what I discover is that playing this just has me hyped for the remakes of games 2 and 3 which I always thought were much stronger (and some of my favorite RPGs)
I've beaten this game twice before, so I'm pretty familiar with it, so I'm going to be interested to see what new content I find along the way.
I've beaten this game twice before, so I'm pretty familiar with it, so I'm going to be interested to see what new content I find along the way.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
I'm intrigued. Never played Avadon, tho. How does this game run on iPad gen1? Are the controls clunky?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The game is the daily deal on Steam today, at $3.39
oneils
Member
Just nabbed it, along with Avadon. I tried the avadon demo a long time ago, but never picked it up. Glad to see that Vogel is enjoying some success with Steam.
almostheathen
Member
Got Avernum 4-6 from the be mine <3<3 bundle. Decided to wait on Avernum daily yesterday as im playing through Geneforge 3 now. Started the Geneforge series after enjoying and finishing Avadon earlier this year.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You know we totally have a Geneforge thread where you could go and talk about how much you enjoyed them and hopefully get other people to play them
Ingueferroque
Banned
This game is incredible, totally worth the ridiculously low price it was (and will be) on Steam. One weird thing is that energy doesnt seem to matter much and depletes really slowly.
The other issue is that the keyboard shortcuts could do easily be vastly improved, opening and closing menus is tiresome.
I love how natural the difficulty is scaled, it's fun to go back to areas you were too weak for before, I know that's nothing new but it just feels so organic.
The writing is really good, and I'm happy the character art is good again.
Is there a way to make your own notes in the game? I need to keep track of doors I can't open yet...
I wish I could zoom in, and that I could have my own castle in this game..but it is what it is.
I used to play the old Exile shareware games back in the day, but was too young to really absorb it, I wonder how close of a remake this is.
The job boards in the various towns are a great way to give quests.
What is Jeff Vogel working on now? Will he remake Exile 2 and 3? How are the earlier Avernum games and where do they fit in the story? Are they all this vast?
The other issue is that the keyboard shortcuts could do easily be vastly improved, opening and closing menus is tiresome.
I love how natural the difficulty is scaled, it's fun to go back to areas you were too weak for before, I know that's nothing new but it just feels so organic.
The writing is really good, and I'm happy the character art is good again.
Is there a way to make your own notes in the game? I need to keep track of doors I can't open yet...
I wish I could zoom in, and that I could have my own castle in this game..but it is what it is.
I used to play the old Exile shareware games back in the day, but was too young to really absorb it, I wonder how close of a remake this is.
The job boards in the various towns are a great way to give quests.
What is Jeff Vogel working on now? Will he remake Exile 2 and 3? How are the earlier Avernum games and where do they fit in the story? Are they all this vast?
So, I bought basically everything Spiderweb Software has done during the big holiday sale on Steam, and decided to start this up. Just my second Spiderweb game after finishing the first Geneforge.
I have to say, I love it. It's leaving a better first impression than Geneforge. Not to sound too shallow, but a big part why I think is the overall presentation. I know some people still aren't totally thrilled with it in that respect, but I think it looks pretty good. Massively improved next to Geneforge. The movement and mouse scrolling is way smoother, the environments are more detailed, the UI isn't amazing but it's clean and easier to use, and the character art is infinitely better than what I've seen from Vogel's earlier games. I'm really impressed. All the other aspects that I enjoyed in Geneforge are present also. Solid party combat and Vogel's writing especially. He's really good at establishing the mood when you enter a new area through descriptive text.
I can't wait to play more. Hope they keep remaking the Avernum games with this new engine because it really adds a lot to the experience for me.
I have to say, I love it. It's leaving a better first impression than Geneforge. Not to sound too shallow, but a big part why I think is the overall presentation. I know some people still aren't totally thrilled with it in that respect, but I think it looks pretty good. Massively improved next to Geneforge. The movement and mouse scrolling is way smoother, the environments are more detailed, the UI isn't amazing but it's clean and easier to use, and the character art is infinitely better than what I've seen from Vogel's earlier games. I'm really impressed. All the other aspects that I enjoyed in Geneforge are present also. Solid party combat and Vogel's writing especially. He's really good at establishing the mood when you enter a new area through descriptive text.
I can't wait to play more. Hope they keep remaking the Avernum games with this new engine because it really adds a lot to the experience for me.
I had some second thoughts about buying it, without any previous experience with Spiderweb games and with it looking somewhat lacking on the screenshots, but then I finally decided to buy it when it was the Steam daily deal and it was fantastic! Ended up enjoying it as much as I did enjoy Baldur's Gate II, which is my favourite CRPG.
Yeah, it's really great so far.
I'm still going through it, did pretty much every quest in the first two towns, just moved north to a third one. The last quest I did was pretty awesome. Had to clear a cave of some bats, was pretty routine, but eventually I stumbled upon a secret door in a wall and ended up fighting those ancient mummy looking things. There was even some sort of ancient book with this spell scripture in it (though my priest couldn't read it yet, not high enough level, will have to come back).
Anyways, it's awesome. Definitely recommend it to crpg fans. Also have Avadon waiting for me after I finish this, hope it's good as well.
I'm still going through it, did pretty much every quest in the first two towns, just moved north to a third one. The last quest I did was pretty awesome. Had to clear a cave of some bats, was pretty routine, but eventually I stumbled upon a secret door in a wall and ended up fighting those ancient mummy looking things. There was even some sort of ancient book with this spell scripture in it (though my priest couldn't read it yet, not high enough level, will have to come back).
Anyways, it's awesome. Definitely recommend it to crpg fans. Also have Avadon waiting for me after I finish this, hope it's good as well.
You're still very early into the game, actually, there is a lot more to come. There's a late game quest in that bat cave, I think, so you'll have to come back eventually anyway. It also makes sense to check out the cave to the north of Formello -- it's not a hostile area and you may find valuable information there.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, the Avernum games have some great quests and all around sense of exploration. I'm really looking forward to the eventual remakes of 2 and 3 specifically
I wonder when it happens, seeing that they're busy with Avadon 2 and all.