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[Xamtheking]

And to add to my previous response to Xam: If it won't outright win them the game, they'd much rather have someone other than them bring down the hammer on Sorian. You yourself offered to end the day earlier - if you're town that sounds like a pretty cool freebie for scum, they might as well be waiting for you to make that offer again and end the day for them.

Well in my case I would only hammer if Sorian was on board with it, and made it explicitly clear
Also
How many scum do you think there are, Fireblend?

 

[Fireblend]

I will give you that a smart scum team would split the vote, and I would agree with you
But here is the issue
The instant Trigger claimed
THE INSTANT
Scum would have hammered if they had a vote left
They have a 100% kill on me tonight and they would have won the game in the morning
Or do you guys want to do your math again

Sure. They're in a very dominant position and maybe want to play it safe, but I mostly agree with you there. I'm more willing to believe they have some obscure motive for potentially not trusting Trigger or not wanting to hammer Sorian than just assuming blindly everyone else is town. I'm just worried about how dangerous that notion is.

 

[Xamtheking]

Also
I brought this up earlier but people have seem to missed it
I TOTALLY CALLED THAT THERE WOULD BE NO VOTE STEALING TODAY, LONG BEFORE TRIGGER PLACED A VOTE.
But you'll all probably still ignore me

 

[Fireblend]

Well in my case I would only hammer if Sorian was on board with it, and made it explicitly clear
Also
How many scum do you think there are, Fireblend?

I believe assuming the worst case scenario is always the right thing to do, so I'd go with 4.

 

[Xamtheking]

I believe assuming the worst case scenario is always the right thing to do, so I'd go with 4.

So you think scum split the vote, then?
Who's your top scum and who are they voting for right now

 

[Fireblend]

So you think scum split the vote, then?
Who's your top scum and who are they voting for right now

Coppa is my main scum read right now. That's followed by Karu and then potentially Ty (because Launch's list could contain 1 or more scum). 2 of them are voting for Coppa. I believe town members are voting Sorian because I think their suspicions on him are justified - he did stray away from his Coppa tunneling to lynch someone who turned out to be town yesterday. I've already said I feel like I'm fumbling in the dark right now, I'm not privy to any information other than what we have and I think we desperately need a scum lynch so we can begin connecting the dots on previous vote results. I can totally see them splitting the vote today though, regardless of numbers.

 

[Sorian]

Also
I brought this up earlier but people have seem to missed it
I TOTALLY CALLED THAT THERE WOULD BE NO VOTE STEALING TODAY, LONG BEFORE TRIGGER PLACED A VOTE.
But you'll all probably still ignore me

I'm not sure why you are proud of this. It still looks like a point against you from where I am sitting. You said hey look, no one is missing their vote and then when we pointed out that Trigger hadn't shown up, you back pedaled and said, well it's obvious because <vague reasoning>.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Because I ultimately think it's wrong to vote outside of that group.

I wanted to flesh out my reads as much as I could. That's why I pushed people like Fire who we know very little about. As it started to look more and more like we'd actually lynch someone outside of that group I got more worried. I don't town read Sorian, but I think it's wrong to lynch him before Coppa or me. It's a shot in the dark we don't have to make.

If I'm the neutral, why haven't I turbo'd Sorian yet?

This is a good point, but I think the correct question is "If I'm Hugo Strange with the win condition that exactly as Trigger described, why haven't I turbo'd Sorian yet?"

I'd like to get everyone's opinion on the fact that for a good portion of today, Ty and Coppa weren't voting for each other. If they believe Launch's list to be true, why in the world would the town portion of the pair not be voting for someone who's in their eyes guaranteed to be non-town? Launch, why are you not pointing this out? Why does it seem like I trust your list more than you do? How does this fit any narrative other than something really weird going on?

Why has no one hammered Sorian? Specially after Trigger's revelation.

Too many people have voted Sorian for me to believe the scum team isn't happy about this outcome. I'm staying on Coppa. Congrats scum team if you've truly led me astray in my beliefs and discovered my weak point: Logical reasoning.

I'm not pointing this out because Coppa has been a non-entity this phase. What do I really have to go on other than Ty4on suddenly woke up and said "it's him!!", which is actually more suspect than Coppa actually having an action. Or equally suspect. Or something.

Also
I brought this up earlier but people have seem to missed it
I TOTALLY CALLED THAT THERE WOULD BE NO VOTE STEALING TODAY, LONG BEFORE TRIGGER PLACED A VOTE.
But you'll all probably still ignore me

Do you want a free month of Amazon Prime for that?

 

[Xamtheking]

I'm not sure why you are proud of this. It still looks like a point against you from where I am sitting. You said hey look, no one is missing their vote and then when we pointed out that Trigger hadn't shown up, you back pedaled and said, well it's obvious because <vague reasoning>.

Vague reasoning?
I clearly said that your vote was stolen before the start of the last day phase
When did I backpedal?
I might have shifted gears onto Ty4on but I didn't back down

 

[Xamtheking]

Do you want a free month of Amazon Prime for that?

No I want to not lose this game

 

[Sorian]

Vague reasoning?
I clearly said that your vote was stolen before the start of the last day phase
When did I backpedal?
I might have shifted gears onto Ty4on but I didn't back down

You said that it would be showing in the vote count regardless which we don't even know is true because I had a vote up all day yesterday. I didn't even think to remove my vote to see what that would look like when Roy posted vote counts. The backpedal was just specifically that you said everyone was accounted for but then that wasn't true. I think you are right about the vote thing but that doesn't change the fact that there is no proof of it.

 

[Xamtheking]

You said that it would be showing in the vote count regardless which we don't even know is true because I had a vote up all day yesterday. I didn't even think to remove my vote to see what that would look like when Roy posted vote counts. The backpedal was just specifically that you said everyone was accounted for but then that wasn't true. I think you are right about the vote thing but that doesn't change the fact that there is no proof of it.

Your vote was on the Joker vote even before D1 started(because it had no post count), and you can see the blank spaces where you attempted to change it as history
Compare the amount of blank spaces to the amount of times you voted on someone

 

[Sorian]

Your vote was on the Joker vote even before D1 started(because it had no post count), and you can see the blank spaces where you attempted to change it as history
Compare the amount of blank spaces to the amount of times you voted on someone

You mean D3?

Anyway, yeah, of course there are blank spots in there. Roy had to manually edit out my votes. Flush's vote tool isn't set up to just straight ignore a player. Of course my vote was screwed with N2, that's not what we're arguing here. It's just not apparent that my vote would have stayed stuck on that thing if I had unvoted.

 

[Ty4on]

I'm not pointing this out because Coppa has been a non-entity this phase. What do I really have to go on other than Ty4on suddenly woke up and said "it's him!!", which is actually more suspect than Coppa actually having an action. Or equally suspect. Or something.

I actually woke up with a similar thought
Something like "Why aren't we just lynching Coppa?"

The kick in my back was also realizing that town might not lynch Coppa afterwards. I pushed this before Trigger claimed as well and the push back was that Coppa could be a neutral (#2610). With Trigger's claim though Coppa (or me) being neutral means we have a second, presumably unrelated neutral. That just seems too weird to me.

 

[Sorian]

I actually woke up with a similar thought
Something like "Why aren't we just lynching Coppa?"

The kick in my back was also realizing that town might not lynch Coppa afterwards. I pushed this before Trigger claimed as well and the push back was that Coppa could be a neutral (#2610). With Trigger's claim though Coppa (or me) being neutral means we have a second, presumably unrelated neutral. That just seems too weird to me.

If Trigger is telling the truth then I have no doubt that Strange is the only neutral. No extra kills and really, this size game should probably only have 1 neutral. Trigger's story also helps with the relatively slow pace of this game so far.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I actually woke up with a similar thought
Something like "Why aren't we just lynching Coppa?"

The kick in my back was also realizing that town might not lynch Coppa afterwards. I pushed this before Trigger claimed as well and the push back was that Coppa could be a neutral (#2610). With Trigger's claim though Coppa (or me) being neutral means we have a second, presumably unrelated neutral. That just seems too weird to me.

Or, you woke up, saw Huge Strange had been outed as a neutral, remembered that I'd thrown out the idea that there was a neutral between the two of you, and decided to pin it on the quiet one.

 

[Xamtheking]

Or, you woke up, saw Huge Strange had been outed as a neutral, remembered that I'd thrown out the idea that there was a neutral between the two of you, and decided to pin it on the quiet one.

If ty4on was strange he would hammer Sorian and win

 

[weemadarthur]

Hugo Strange's goal is to get me to survive until Night 4, at which point I'll automatically die. I haven't been told if that's Hugo's win condition. I don't know what happens if Hugo survives. All I know is that Hugo is aware of my role. He (or she) knows that Trigger = Batman. The only way for me to survive past today is to lynch him. With that said I feel like I can explain a few of my actions:

Gafia has a hard on for neutrals and it hurts nothing to just assume they are there and take them into account, apparently I wasn't wrong from reading the rest of the morning posts.

Hugo Strange probably also gets removed from the game

He's saying that he thinks you are the neutral Hugo Strange.

So I reread today's pages and realized I was calling Strange a neutral and wondered why I was.

Then I saw that trigger didn't know whether it was a mafia or neutral role. But both Xam and Sorian were very sure that it was. Now, naturally it's plausible that Strange is neutral. But Sorian usually equivocates when a thing is not certain. But he and Xam sound so certain that Strange isn't a mafia member.

Fireblend, as to why nobody would hammer Sorian, I offered another explanation. That the scum team want to save Sorian in particular, either for a cool role, or because they think he's the best player. Note both Ty4on and Xam offering themselves as 'better lynches than Sorian today'.

Topo is making incredible amounts of sense.

 

[Sorian]

If ty4on was strange he would hammer Sorian and win

I'll take a guess at Launch's counter to you:

This is a good point, but I think the correct question is "If I'm Hugo Strange with the win condition that exactly as Trigger described, why haven't I turbo'd Sorian yet?"

 

[Sorian]

So I reread today's pages and realized I was calling Strange a neutral and wondered why I was.

Then I saw that trigger didn't know whether it was a mafia or neutral role. But both Xam and Sorian were very sure that it was. Now, naturally it's plausible that Strange is neutral. But Sorian usually equivocates when a thing is not certain. But he and Xam sound so certain that Strange isn't a mafia member.

Fireblend, as to why nobody would hammer Sorian, I offered another explanation. That the scum team want to save Sorian in particular, either for a cool role, or because they think he's the best player. Note both Ty4on and Xam offering themselves as 'better lynches than Sorian today'.

Topo is making incredible amounts of sense.

weemad, stop being dense. Do you really think that the scum team has known who Batman was from the beginning and hasn't tried to kill him? Of course Strange is a neutral:

All I know is that Hugo is aware of my role. He (or she) knows that Trigger = Batman.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I'll take a guess at Launch's counter to you:

Thank you.

 

[Sorian]

Thank you.

But let's go deeper then because I'm at a loss. What else would Strange's win con be? So he is, presumably, responsible for Batman's death/departure from the city. What then? Where does the role go from there if it doesn't win when Batman leaves?

 

[Fireblend]

Fireblend, as to why nobody would hammer Sorian, I offered another explanation. That the scum team want to save Sorian in particular, either for a cool role, or because they think he's the best player. Note both Ty4on and Xam offering themselves as 'better lynches than Sorian today'.

I shudder at the thought we're losing to a mafia team that would save Sorian "for a cool role or because he's the best player".

 

[Xamtheking]

But let's go deeper then because I'm at a loss. What else would Strange's win con be? So he is, presumably, responsible for Batman's death/departure from the city. What then? Where does the role go from there if it doesn't win when Batman leaves?

Possibly remove himself and lose

 

[weemadarthur]

weemad, stop being dense. Do you really think that the scum team has known who Batman was from the beginning and hasn't tried to kill him? Of course Strange is a neutral:

That's actually a good point and I hadn't considered it.

Boy, this isn't even day end, and there's so much more discussion about the lynch candidate than there has been for the last two day phases! I wonder why?

Hey Sorian. Does your alleged charge up power kill multiple people at once?

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

But let's go deeper then because I'm at a loss. What else would Strange's win con be? So he is, presumably, responsible for Batman's death/departure from the city. What then? Where does the role go from there if it doesn't win when Batman leaves?

I'm just suggesting that there may be an additional condition to be meet other than just having the two survive until Day 5. What that could be, I haven't a clue. I think he'll stay in the game if he doesn't meet his condition, though.

 

[Ty4on]

[...]
Kark is a weird scenario. I sided with him yesterday and thought the batcomputer stuff was a clever way to fish for reactions and have something to look back on, and he even got serious yesterday when he dropped his roleplaying act and started backing up what he'd done with arguments I found appealing, but I find it difficult not to side with Sorian's argument early today pointing him as the most suspicious, and his hostility is also off-putting, trying to put aside my thoughts on what it would mean if he was scum who exited the game so suddenly... I would rank Coppa or Ty as better lynch alternatives today because I'd like someone to come in in Kark's place and give them a fighting chance, but as I said I wouldn't lose any sleep over a Kark lynch. Specially the Ty-Coppa argument that's going on would seem to give us a good 2-for-1 read on half of the group, and gives ty some credibility.
[...]

I don't see how gryvan getting some extra time is indication of anything regarding his alignment. That said, I stay by my previous posts; Kark was suspicious as hell and seeing gryvan not backpedalling regarding Kark's previous statements makes me think he's more likely to be a replacement for a scum player whose games he's now forced to follow, even voting for Sorian.

Vote: gryvan

However, I admit I have my doubts about if scum Kark would have quit the game like he did. I hate to meta-game, but if Kark had been scum, I would have expected him to get mod-killed. I hate to mention it, but it's very difficult and frustrating to play the game in a "non-meta" way that conflicts with my actual thoughts on the matter, which I'm having trouble reconciling, but there it is. I believe my vote is in a decent spot barring those reservations.

Again, I'm ok with lynching pretty much anyone on the list of 4 Launch gave us, plus maybe Karu, but I'm hopeful about the list actually giving us good odds to catch scum.

What changed after the break? You seemed to be leaning towards a Coppa lynch in the last post before the break and then voted gryvan in the first post after. You never really town read Kark, but I also don't see what changed and made you scum read him more than Coppa from your posts.

 

[Xamtheking]

I wish camjo would have been nked

 

[Sorian]

I shudder at the thought we're losing to a mafia team that would save Sorian "for a cool role or because he's the best player".

I think I'm offended. Should I be offended? I think of myself as a good player sometimes :/

Spoiler

This game isn't my best showing, I'm quite aware. Definitely not hitting home runs like I did in NV.

 

[Sorian]

That's actually a good point and I hadn't considered it.

Boy, this isn't even day end, and there's so much more discussion about the lynch candidate than there has been for the last two day phases! I wonder why?

Hey Sorian. Does your alleged charge up power kill multiple people at once?

Because the loudest person is on the block and usually loud people make a lot of noise at their own death. Seems pretty par.

Anyway though, no my ability just kills the one person.

I'm just suggesting that there may be an additional condition to be meet other than just having the two survive until Day 5. What that could be, I haven't a clue. I think he'll stay in the game if he doesn't meet his condition, though.

I was going to make fun of this but I guess you mean that you think he might revert to regular survivor if he doesn't do whatever, which makes sense, yeah.

I wish camjo would have been nked

Why?

 

[Ty4on]

I think I'm offended. Should I be offended? I think of myself as a good player sometimes :/

Spoiler

This game isn't my best showing, I'm quite aware. Definitely not hitting home runs like I did in NV.

Never give up. Burb gave me town MVP in Love Boat after I scum read all of town and had the most suspicious voting record possible

Spoiler

You've played quite well if you're scum.

 

[Trigger]

I think I'm offended. Should I be offended? I think of myself as a good player sometimes :/

Spoiler

This game isn't my best showing, I'm quite aware. Definitely not hitting home runs like I did in NV.

lol I think a scum team saving you because you're cool has some pretty skewed priorities.

 

[Xamtheking]

Why?

Get that red hood action going on

 

[Sorian]

lol I think a scum team saving you because you're cool has some pretty skewed priorities.

Well, weemad said a cool role, not me being cool specifically. I am a pretty cool guy though >_>

Anyway!

Get that red hood action going on

Xam, stop being so demoralized. You make it sound like the game is over. If you are town, you actually have the ability to stall the game. Scum is ignoring you, probably to make you more and more suspicious as time goes on but every night they do that, they also risk you healing someone. They obviously aren't role blocking you because they have a role block tied to the vote thing and I doubt they have two role blockers so you obviously have the capability of blocking a kill. You can stall the game if you are smart (even a little bit because if you do actually start blocking kills, they will probably kill you). Game isn't over yet and hopefully it isn't over after today.

 

[CornBurrito]

Ok so...

Sorian has been in turbo range 3 times for good chunks of time over the course of this day. Yet he hasn't been turbo'd.

Why? Either scum already has all their votes already on him and is waiting for a town to hammer, or Sorian is scum himself.

 

[Sorian]

Ok so...

Sorian has been in turbo range 3 times for good chunks of time over the course of this day. Yet he hasn't been turbo'd.

Why? Either scum already has all their votes already on him and is waiting for a town to hammer, or Sorian is scum himself.

Would scum hammer when people want to discuss more if the game would still be going on tomorrow? That would be a pretty big sign saying "Hi! I am scum! You're welcome for the turbo!"

 

[Ty4on]

Ok so...

Sorian has been in turbo range 3 times for good chunks of time over the course of this day. Yet he hasn't been turbo'd.

Why? Either scum already has all their votes already on him and is waiting for a town to hammer, or Sorian is scum himself.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sorian were scum, but we don't have to be in Mylo. If Trigger is telling the truth then 4 scum seems a bit too powerful to me in what is essentially a 17/16 player game. That neutral is hard to find with Trigger not having an ability to find him (lynchers usually have a scanning ability to find their target). Scum would need some good power roles, but that could explain why they managed to kill a power role on N2.

 

[Xamtheking]

Sorian they can just kill me tonight and I can't do shit about it

 

[Sorian]

Sorian they can just kill me tonight and I can't do shit about it

They could have killed you for two nights now and you haven't been able to do shit about it. Nothing new in that regard. Scum is choosing not to or you are lying, one of the two.

 

[CornBurrito]

Would scum hammer when people want to discuss more if the game would still be going on tomorrow? That would be a pretty big sign saying "Hi! I am scum! You're welcome for the turbo!"

Sure you could have argued that a bit earlier. But you were also in Turbo Range after Trigger's claims. And you and Xam both worked out the math that town loses if they mislynch today.

So scum would 100% hammer in that circumstance. Which means you're either scum, or scum placed all their votes on you already.

 

[Fireblend]

I think I'm offended. Should I be offended? I think of myself as a good player sometimes :/

Spoiler

This game isn't my best showing, I'm quite aware. Definitely not hitting home runs like I did in NV.

Oh no, I meant I would be disappointed at the thought of a scum team saving someone just because "they're a good player", no offense intended towards you in particular! I think I misread Wee's post a bit because he was assuming you're scum in that scenario? In which case, that's not what I was asking at all. Now I'm confused about what Wee meant by that.

What changed after the break? You seemed to be leaning towards a Coppa lynch in the last post before the break and then voted gryvan in the first post after. You never really town read Kark, but I also don't see what changed and made you scum read him more than Coppa from your posts.

I actually enumerated my reasons earlier:

<this is where the quote would go if I wasn't an idiot>

Err, I guess I didn't. I must have typed it on my phone at some point yesterday and didn't hit submit or something, sorry. Ok let me enumerate my reasons:

1. I was frustrated at Kark leaving the game, which I regret. I also admit to falling for the metagame trap and thinking about the modkill vs. looking for a sub thing more than I should have. That was bad.

2. I already said i thought Gryvan sticking to Kark's obscureness seemed shady as hell. He continued not willing to cooperate with town like with the flavor stuff, and that's nothing like I would act if I came in as a sub to someone that had been acting shady as hell throughout the game when in reality he had a simple role. If Gryvan had come in and been more transparent I would have given him a chance like I did with AB.

3. He was in the list of 4 Launch gave us and I thought if he flipped scum town would stand to gain the most information in comparison with the other alternatives. I saw lynching him as a greedy play the obviously didn't pan out.

4. I felt like his last round of discussion with Sorian was a lot more hostile and emotional than the ones that came before it and I actually defended him for. He had me sold on his gambits to fish for reactions, but some of his last statements were super disappointing and shifted my thoughts on continuing to trust him.

 

[Xamtheking]

Sure you could have argued that a bit earlier. But you were also in Turbo Range after Trigger's claims. And you and Xam both worked out the math that town loses if they mislynch today.

So scum would 100% hammer in that circumstance. Which means you're either scum, or scum placed all their votes on you already.

Literally I said this earlier

 

[Sorian]

Sure you could have argued that a bit earlier. But you were also in Turbo Range after Trigger's claims. And you and Xam both worked out the math that town loses if they mislynch today.

So scum would 100% hammer in that circumstance. Which means you're either scum, or scum placed all their votes on you already.

Why would scum 100% hammer on some unproven claim that a town player put forward? Trigger could just as easily be lying and this would fish out a scum with a hasty hammer.

 

[CornBurrito]

Why would scum 100% hammer on some unproven claim that a town player put forward? Trigger could just as easily be lying and this would fish out a scum with a hasty hammer.

That'd be one hell of a gambit. Frankly I don't believe that.

 

[weemadarthur]

I'm looking for anyone who has been supporting trigger, or really commenting on him at all. I have 7 pages to go through, and most of the posts are by moderators, so we haven't discussed him as much as the talkative people.

I'm leaving off the dead folks.

3. Trigger has done the opposite of tunneling, unless you're trying to say that he's focused on him not being mafia. And even then, it's not especially controversial to be talking about someone with four votes already on them if you think there are better ways to be voting.

Day 1, I pushed trigger on his behavior because I was reading him as scum. He was strongly defended by camjo. Camjo is also mayor who had an override, which he used when trigger was in no danger.

15. Trigger [m] Defended against my thinking he was scummy by doubling down on having told the truth. If he's lying he should trip up later.

I moved trigger up to a null read after arguing with him a bit.

But you have Trigget have jumped higher on my list. You because you seem to be having an easier time hitting probable town and Trigger for that weak sheeping and actually using the bat computer as real reasoning for it.

Sorian had a scum read on trigger for that day phase, but trigger says he defended him a lot too, so more to come on this subject. Trying not to do too big a megapost.

 

[Xamtheking]

Trigger, what do you think about lynching yourself today?

 

[Ty4on]

I actually enumerated my reasons earlier:

<this is where the quote would go if I wasn't an idiot>

Err, I guess I didn't. I must have typed it on my phone at some point yesterday and didn't hit submit or something, sorry. Ok let me enumerate my reasons:

1. I was frustrated at Kark leaving the game, which I regret. I also admit to falling for the metagame trap and thinking about the modkill vs. looking for a sub thing more than I should have. That was bad.

2. I already said i thought Gryvan sticking to Kark's obscureness seemed shady as hell. He continued not willing to cooperate with town like with the flavor stuff, and that's nothing like I would act if I came in as a sub to someone that had been acting shady as hell throughout the game when in reality he had a simple role. If Gryvan had come in and been more transparent I would have given him a chance like I did with AB.

3. He was in the list of 4 Launch gave us and I thought if he flipped scum town would stand to gain the most information in comparison with the other alternatives. I saw lynching him as a greedy play the obviously didn't pan out.

4. I felt like his last round of discussion with Sorian was a lot more hostile and emotional than the ones that came before it and I actually defended him for. He had me sold on his gambits to fish for reactions, but some of his last statements were super disappointing and shifted my thoughts on continuing to trust him.

I actually also thought I had asked you the same question earlier, but didn't find anything

Did you opinion on Coppa also change, or did you just get more suspicious of Kark/gryvan?

 

[Sorian]

Sorian had a scum read on trigger for that day phase, but trigger says he defended him a lot too, so more to come on this subject. Trying not to do too big a megapost.

While you're back there, I'm pretty sure I null read Trigger day 1 and then started town reading him after you had some weird back and forth with him. I don't think I ever scum read him past "he has been inactive"

Trigger, what do you think about lynching yourself today?

That sounds like a terrible plan.

 

[CornBurrito]

Trigger, what do you think about lynching yourself today?

What the fuck...

 

[Sorian]

While you're back there, I'm pretty sure I null read Trigger day 1 and then started town reading him after you had some weird back and forth with him. I don't think I ever scum read him past "he has been inactive"

"Some weird back and forth with him day 2 or 3, I forget which"

Dropped half of my point there somehow.