I was chatting to a friend about Berserk this weekend and he mentioned how he thought it was implied that
Zodd is Guts father, as they look similar and it would explain why he can wreck people so much easier. His thinking is that Guts is half demon and it will come out later that zodd raped his mum and she abandoned him
I haven't read it in a long time so I maybe I just missed something? Think I might go back and read it all again.
I was chatting to a friend about Berserk this weekend and he mentioned how he thought it was implied that
Zodd is Guts father, as they look similar and it would explain why he can wreck people so much easier. His thinking is that Guts is half demon and it will come out later that zodd raped his mum and she abandoned him
I haven't read it in a long time so I maybe I just missed something? Think I might go back and read it all again.
I'd say this is a fairly plausible explanation for certain interactions with the character.
And yeah, Mirua definitely doesn't draw it all himself. He might have for awhile, but those epic scenes with 300 dudes don't get drawn in a month by one artist.
I was chatting to a friend about Berserk this weekend and he mentioned how he thought it was implied that
Zodd is Guts father, as they look similar and it would explain why he can wreck people so much easier. His thinking is that Guts is half demon and it will come out later that zodd raped his mum and she abandoned him
I haven't read it in a long time so I maybe I just missed something? Think I might go back and read it all again.
I was chatting to a friend about Berserk this weekend and he mentioned how he thought it was implied that
Zodd is Guts father, as they look similar and it would explain why he can wreck people so much easier. His thinking is that Guts is half demon and it will come out later that zodd raped his mum and she abandoned him
I haven't read it in a long time so I maybe I just missed something? Think I might go back and read it all again.
Wasn't Guts' mother hanged while she was pregnant? Gave birth to Guts after she died. I thought it was the whole being close to death, at an early age is what made him such a force to be reckoned with.
I'm so happy I just found this thread. I watched the anime a couple years ago and was blown away by how awesome it was.
I was also blown away by how much I wanted to hurt someone over the ending.
I always considered reading the manga, but I never really been interested in mangas before. Finding out where the story leads to might just be worth it though.
So...Miura is drawing another manga, and that's why Berserk will be on hiatus for over a year? Fuck that noise. I should delete my bookmark and stop teasing myself. I check the link at least once a week to see if there's an update. That and HxH are giving me blueballs. PEACE.
Wasn't Guts' mother hanged while she was pregnant? Gave birth to Guts after she died. I thought it was the whole being close to death, at an early age is what made him such a force to be reckoned with.
seem to be outside the grasp of casuality. Sort of like in DnD when a character is born and when fate flips a coin it lands on its side allowing them to be outside the hand of fate.
I'm so happy I just found this thread. I watched the anime a couple years ago and was blown away by how awesome it was.
I was also blown away by how much I wanted to hurt someone over the ending.
I always considered reading the manga, but I never really been interested in mangas before. Finding out where the story leads to might just be worth it though.
seem to be outside the grasp of casuality. Sort of like in DnD when a character is born and when fate flips a coin it lands on its side allowing them to be outside the hand of fate.
Yeah, and Skull Knight refers to him as "struggler". Implying that even being so close to death, his will to live is strong. Gotta keep swinging that sword. There situations are so similar. Skull Knight is a really interesting character.
Wasn't Guts' mother hanged while she was pregnant? Gave birth to Guts after she died. I thought it was the whole being close to death, at an early age is what made him such a force to be reckoned with.
I reckon Guts exists outside of causality. He was meant to die when his mother hung, but he didn't. As a soldier and a member of Taka no Dan, he kept pushing himself closer and closer to death just to feel alive. Heck, even the death mark of the Brand has killed him yet.
While causality was manipulated to create Griffith and the circumstances that would lead to Falconia, it's been Guts that nearly screwed the whole thing up. He almost made Griffith forget his ambition. Griffith had to test his humanity by meeting Guts again after his rebirth to ensure Guts' very existence could no longer emotionally influence him.
With Causality manipulated to grant Griffith control of humanity's destiny, it's going to be Guts that puts an end to Griffith's ambitions. I think it's inevitable - and the story resonates around these main characters. It's funny, both characters come from the dark shadow's of humanity and have had terrible circumstances and upbringings. Guts exists outside of causality and Griffith embodies it.
Anyways. Major spoilers ahead.
Who is the moonlight child? What role will he play?
Appearing and disappearing with the full moon, with Gut's defeat of the Sea God, the link between the Moonlight Child and Griffith, at least from a a visual perspective, has become a dead certain thing. Caska is very protective of the child and we've now seen a bond between Guts and him.
He can't be the child of Caska and Guts, that ship has long since sailed. That is our only definitely clue. My theory is that the child is a spirit, created when Griffith took human form during the false Eclipse. Femto went from being a God Hand to Griffith, a human, and I think the process created a byproduct. As far as we know no other God Hand has went through this sort of process, so it's possible something unforeseen could have happened.
My theory is, is that this spirit is Griffith's humanity given an actual form, divorced from the entity Griffith has become. Unlike Griffith, it was birthed only recently and didn't retain any of his specific memories, just Griffith's rejected human emotions. Griffith did care about Caska and Guts - he rejected this part of himself.
The Moonlight Child would have stayed in the Astral realm if it wasn't for the events that have merged that realm with reality to the create the current situation. So this spirit of light (we have seen his Astral form, and it resembles the Falcon of Light, Griffith) took on a human form when it entered our reality. Griffith's bond with Caska was his oldest, so it took the form of both it's parents.
Who is the moonlight child? What role will be play?
Appearing and disappearing with the full moon, with Gut's defeat of the Sea God, the link between the Moonlight Child and Griffith, at least from a a visual perspective, has become a dead certain thing. Caska is very protective of the child and we've now seen a bond between Guts and him.
He can't be the child of Caska and Guts, that ship has long since sailed. That is our only definitely clue. My theory is that the child is a spirit, created when Griffith took human form during the false Eclipse. Femto went from being a God Hand to Griffith, a human, and I think process created a byproduct. As far as we know no other God Hand has went through this sort of process, so it's possible something unforeseen could have happened.
My theory is, is that this spirit is Griffith's humanity given an actual form, divorced from the entity Griffith has become. Unlike Griffith, it was birth only recently and didn't retain any of his specific memories, just Griffith rejected human emotions. Griffith did care about Caska and Guts - he rejected this part of himself.
The Moonlight Child would have stayed in the Astral realm if it wasn't for the events that have merged that realm with reality to the create the current situation. So this spirit of light (we have seen his Astral form, and it resembles the Falcon of Light, Griffith) took on a human form when it entered our reality. Griffith's bond with Caska was his oldest, so it took the form of both it's parents.
Yeah the appearance of that child really confused me. Really like you're explanation for him.
I use to think he was their child, but then I remembered the second eclipse. What happened to Guts and Caska's child again? From what I can remember he played some role in Griffith's rebirth.
I'm thinking he is Guts and Casca's son.
When Griffith saved Casca from those boulders, he could feel his heart still beating and speculated that was because of the vessel he used. I'm thinking Griffith decided to deal with that flaw by letting the child "take over" once in a while (on full moons?) so he could fully be himself the rest of the time in return.
Note that when the child first disappeared, Guts sensed something behind him, and we could barely see what might well be Zodd's horns in that direction. Maybe Zodd was the one who brought the child there (still acting as Griffith's cab). And now that the world tree exists, the child has a new mean of transportation.
Yeah the appearance of that child really confused me. Really like you're explanation for him.
I use to think he was their child, but then I remembered the second eclipse. What happened to Guts and Caska's child again? From what I can remember he played some role in Griffith's rebirth.
The Child used the last of his strength to save Guts and Griffith during the Incarnation Ceremony, and the Egg-Shaped Apostle ate him, making him part of the reincarnated form of Griffith. This has been shown to affect Griffith in some small ways.
Slightly Live:
I've wondered if perhaps the Child is actually the Astral (or, less likely, Ideal) form of Casca and Guts' child; a representation of what he should have been without Griffith's corruption of his Physical form. His creation is interesting - Guts and Casca were of the Physical plane, at the time of his conception, and Griffith's corruption caused the Child to be partly of the Astral plane. I'm not sure how to parse the apparent death of the Demon Child with what I'm thinking, though!
The Child used the last of his strength to save Guts and Griffith during the Incarnation Ceremony, and the Egg-Shaped Apostle ate him, making him part of the reincarnated form of Griffith. This has been shown to affect Griffith in some small ways.
Slightly Live:
I've wondered if perhaps the Child is actually the Astral (or, less likely, Ideal) form of Casca and Guts' child; a representation of what he should have been without Griffith's corruption of his Physical form. His creation is interesting - Guts and Casca were of the Physical plane, at the time of his conception, and Griffith's corruption caused the Child to be partly of the Astral plane. I'm not sure how to parse the apparent death of the Demon Child with what I'm thinking, though!
The Child used the last of his strength to save Guts and Griffith during the Incarnation Ceremony, and the Egg-Shaped Apostle ate him, making him part of the reincarnated form of Griffith. This has been shown to affect Griffith in some small ways.
Even a demonic hell spawn still cares about his parents. And Guts was always pushing him away. :[
I like the idea that the moonlight child is Griffiths humanity manifest. But the fact that Guts and Caska's child is also part of Griffith, it can't be ignored that it could also be the demon child.
Guts isn't outside of causality, that would make no sense at all because he's still an agent within the world. The same goes for Skullknight. 'Causality' in Berserk is ubiquitous, but it isn't absolute (if it were there would be no need for an evil master plan). The allegory presented is of a fish swimming in a river. Any fish can through great effort leap out of the water, but they'll never escape it for good, just as they can't change the flow. Guts and Skullknight apparently have a knack for struggling against the flow, but the results of 'causality' are constantly shifting to account for the inevitable rogue variables.
Wasn't Guts' mother hanged while she was pregnant? Gave birth to Guts after she died. I thought it was the whole being close to death, at an early age is what made him such a force to be reckoned with.
Guts was always meant to die according to the laws of causality under that tree when her mother was hanged. That was how his fate was constructed. That is why he was the major thorn in Griffith's side, he was the one who made him forget his true goal even for a little while. Because Guts was already supposed to die as part of causality his mere existence is something that is "not according to plan". As such he has escaped the laws of fate and why he is able to survive harrowing event after event. It is probably why Skull Knight is drawn to him to the point where he would save him.
This is also why among other reasons that Guts is the only person who can "kill" Griffith. Griffith is the poster boy of causality and Guts is the anti-thesis.
I'm so happy I just found this thread. I watched the anime a couple years ago and was blown away by how awesome it was.
I was also blown away by how much I wanted to hurt someone over the ending.
I always considered reading the manga, but I never really been interested in mangas before. Finding out where the story leads to might just be worth it though.
I'm thinking just the really early issues, before he ever really even got going. But I don't know enough about how they get assistants in Japan for the manga.
I'm just kinda confounded that the guy has a team of assistants but doesn't feel like making sure they have steady work to support them. Maybe the assistant game doesn't work at all like I would expect it to.
Guts was always meant to die according to the laws of causality under that tree when her mother was hanged. That was how his fate was constructed. That is why he was the major thorn in Griffith's side, he was the one who made him forget his true goal even for a little while. Because Guts was already supposed to die as part of causality his mere existence is something that is "not according to plan". As such he has escaped the laws of fate and why he is able to survive harrowing event after event. It is probably why Skull Knight is drawn to him to the point where he would save him.
This is also why among other reasons that Guts is the only person who can "kill" Griffith. Griffith is the poster boy of causality and Guts is the anti-thesis.
It really isn't that simple. You're forgetting how Guts's influence can be treated as the singular variable that lead to Griffith becoming a member Godhand, and that's not even ambiguous. Guts's birth can be treated as just an origin story, there's nothing supported by the text to say that he's some figure outside of the machinations of causality (in fact Slan states the opposite on one occasion, not that she's necessarily reliable but considering how indifferent the Godhand are to humans they have no reason to lie either). And he's been factored into those plans so often now (just as Skullknight has). He may be the one rogue variable that causes all of those plans to eventually collapse, because the antagonists aren't omnipotent and there has to be some margin for error, but I don't think that's due to Guts having any kind of cosmic significance so much as filling the appropriate role.
I honestly feel that Griffith would've "turned" even without Gutts' role one way or the other. His end goal was always having a kingdom and the king would never have allowed him to marry his daughter. That scene of Griffith forcing himself on Charlotte would've happened without Gutts sooner or later... the confrontation with Gutts only sped the process up.
I know there isn't anything in the text supporting the theory that's why its just that... a theory. Maybe there is something special about Gutts or maybe there isn't.
I really need to continue the manga for this. I think I'm still in the Golden Age arc. I remember when I finished the anime, I had never wanted to see a character kill another character more than I wanted to see
I'm thinking just the really early issues, before he ever really even got going. But I don't know enough about how they get assistants in Japan for the manga.
That's generally arranged as soon as a series is greenlit.
Then again, now that I think about it, the first couple of episodes actually were one-shots, originally, so I guess things may have been different back then indeed. Still, I think something like the "prototype" (included in volume 14), for example, is more likely to have been drawn without assistants...
Guessing Shizu was either simple, or had a twisted sense of humor based upon where she found him. Whatever the case, Gambino, being the practical mercenary band leader that he was, was probably just "Sure, whatever, babe."
I honestly feel that Griffith would've "turned" even without Gutts' role one way or the other. His end goal was always having a kingdom and the king would never have allowed him to marry his daughter. That scene of Griffith forcing himself on Charlotte would've happened without Gutts sooner or later... the confrontation with Gutts only sped the process up.
This is ignoring what we know about Griffith's motives for making the sacrifice as shown by the text, that he was ostensibly fleeing his humanity. Ubik showed him a heavily slanted narrative about sacrificing more people so his past sacrifices wouldn't be in vain, and obviously this had some effect because otherwise he wouldn't have been shown that. But it didn't lead to him making that decision. That was something else.
In the moment he makes the sacrifice, Guts approaches him on the altar. This is reminiscent of the scene not long before where Griffith tries to commit suicide with a piece of driftwood, and then Guts starts running towards him. Behelits are awoken by desperate emotion like profound despair, etc, peculiarly it wasn't the moment where he tried to end his life that did it but the moment where he was being brought face to face with Guts. Then later on the altar Guts again reminds him of how vulnerable he's made to feel in comparison to him and the crushing void left by his ruins of his ego at just the right moment, and then he makes the sacrifice in a desperate moment to put an end to those feelings. There was always his dream, but in that moment it wasn't even about that anymore. It was about regaining some sense of having the upper hand. No one else made him feel that way, so without that you're missing a key piece of motivation.
Maybe Griffith would have made the sacrifice eventually without Guts, we really can't say, but without the narrative as it is, and without Griffith fleeing his humanity, Griffith becomes just another shallow villain and not the tragic figure that he is. In this sequence of events, Griffith made the sacrifice out of his extremely vulnerable humanity contrasted against his larger than life ego, and this is what makes the tragedy so poignant. You can say he was destined to make that decision, and the text supports that he was basically destined for that, but there's no sense of inevitability to that decision without this fatal flaw being played as perfectly as it was. Griffith wasn't a bad or even a cold person so it seems much less likely he would make that decision otherwise, Griffith is shown to actually feel deeply for the people that serve him. He apparently has to have his humanity exploited in such a way to become so desperate.
And then there's how Guts's and Casca's child was made to be Griffith's vessel. These plans seem to hinge on Guts existing as much as they're likely to be undone by him. There are numerous instances in the text that point to Guts being subject to causality. The bulk of the evidence points to the complete opposite of what you're suggesting.
I know there isn't anything in the text supporting the theory that's why its just that... a theory. Maybe there is something special about Gutts or maybe there isn't.
Honestly I think it would contradict the themes of the plot to have Guts factored into some kind of loose 'chosen one' narrative. Griffith is the 'chosen one', we can see what the author thinks about that.
umop, I'm glad you made your way here. I haven't read anything that's going to be in Volume 37, and I'm looking forward to it coming out so I can reread the whole series. Hopefully this topic is alive by then!
umop, I'm glad you made your way here. I haven't read anything that's going to be in Volume 37, and I'm looking forward to it coming out so I can reread the whole series. Hopefully this topic is alive by then!
My interest in Berserk has waned a bit, but it's still my favorite manga so I guess I had to show up. I need to read the most recent episodes before it starts up again. You were right in your earlier comment about the pacing, it's only agonizing if you're reading it alongside the release schedule.
I don't think Gutts is the "chosen one", the exact opposite actually.
Obviously removing Gutts from the equation makes the whole transformation of Griffith less interesting and that's the point... if Griffith was just another God Hand the story of Berserk wouldn't be that interesting. I wonder if the Skull Knight has a similar past to Gutts, I think it might be although the Skull Knight's origin story is such a big question mark. In fact I would be very interesting in the origin stories of the other God Hands and if they had a "Gutts" equivalent to them as well who pushed them to the limit.
Also that other guy's theory about *MASSIVE BUT PROBABLY NOT REAL SPOILERS*
Zodd being Gutts' father is so out there that it might even be true. Although I would vastly prefer it to be not the case because then every line that Gutts said about "I am a fucking human" would lose all meaning."
Maybe Griffith would have made the sacrifice eventually without Guts, we really can't say, but without the narrative as it is, and without Griffith fleeing his humanity, Griffith becomes just another shallow villain and not the tragic figure that he is. In this sequence of events, Griffith made the sacrifice out of his extremely vulnerable humanity contrasted against his larger than life ego, and this is what makes the tragedy so poignant. You can say he was destined to make that decision, and the text supports that he was basically destined for that, but there's no sense of inevitability to that decision without this fatal flaw being played as perfectly as it was. Griffith wasn't a bad or even a cold person so it seems much less likely he would make that decision otherwise, Griffith is shown to actually feel deeply for the people that serve him. He apparently has to have his humanity exploited in such a way to become so desperate.
Whatever facade of caring for his troops is there, at heart Griffith has always been a user of people. The point is first clearly made when Guts overhears him talking to Charlotte at the ball about how he does not respect people who live for another's dream.
The sacrifice is basically the fulfillment of this philosophy. His comrades have just rescued him from prison at great loss, but rather than seeing himself as indebted to them, he views there action as weakness, because they are still living for his dream rather than for themselves. From his standpoint their only purpose is to be sacrificed by him at that point.
Also that other guy's theory about *MASSIVE BUT PROBABLY NOT REAL SPOILERS*
Zodd being Gutts' father is so out there that it might even be true. Although I would vastly prefer it to be not the case because then every line that Gutts said about "I am a fucking human" would lose all meaning."
I agree, and I already feel like the Berserk armor (and magic in general) is ruining the series for the same reason - it detracts from the series' original themes of humanity standing against supernatural forces with only the power of their own determination and will to survive.
Ultimately, though, I think Griffith is delusional. He claims to want friends he can view as equals, but when Guts finally gets out of Griffith's control, he can't handle it. The schtick about wanting people to follow their own dreams is just a way of self-justifying his own egomania and vanity.
I don't think Gutts is the "chosen one", the exact opposite actually.
Obviously removing Gutts from the equation makes the whole transformation of Griffith less interesting and that's the point... if Griffith was just another God Hand the story of Berserk wouldn't be that interesting. I wonder if the Skull Knight has a similar past to Gutts, I think it might be although the Skull Knight's origin story is such a big question mark. In fact I would be very interesting in the origin stories of the other God Hands and if they had a "Gutts" equivalent to them as well who pushed them to the limit.
Also that other guy's theory about *MASSIVE BUT PROBABLY NOT REAL SPOILERS*
Zodd being Gutts' father is so out there that it might even be true. Although I would vastly prefer it to be not the case because then every line that Gutts said about "I am a fucking human" would lose all meaning."
I think we know who the skull knight is but don't know his whole backstory yet.
When they are going to rescue Griffith when he was prisoned in the underground tower the princess tells that the place existed long ago and the former King Gaiseric who united all the lands wore a skull helmet and was the greatest fighter in the lands. You see the mass pit of sacrifice victims at the bottom when they drop the torch as well.
I know about that scene and I am talking more about a direct flashback, not a second story from a support character. I want to see Skull Knight narrate some stuff and how he went from normal to what he is now. Like I want to see the scenes leading up to
his Behelit usage or if it even was his Behelit to use.
And yeah Griffith does not ultimately give a fuck about his comrades. He would wipe them out in an instant if they stood in the way of his goal and that's the point... that's his character. At this point you have to yourself is this... what is Griffith NOT willing to do in order to achieve his goals?
Whatever facade of caring for his troops is there, at heart Griffith has always been a user of people. The point is first clearly made when Guts overhears him talking to Charlotte at the ball about how he does not respect people who live for another's dream.
The sacrifice is basically the fulfillment of this philosophy. His comrades have just rescued him from prison at great loss, but rather than seeing himself as indebted to them, he views there action as weakness, because they are still living for his dream rather than for themselves. From his standpoint their only purpose is to be sacrificed by him at that point.
I agree, and I already feel like the Berserk armor (and magic in general) is ruining the series for the same reason - it detracts from the series' original themes of humanity standing against supernatural forces with only the power of their own determination and will to survive.
Ultimately, though, I think Griffith is delusional. He claims to want friends he can view as equals, but when Guts finally gets out of Griffith's control, he can't handle it. The schtick about wanting people to follow their own dreams is just a way of self-justifying his own egomania and vanity.
While he uses people he ostensibly also cares about them. His perspective changed after that kid with the toy knight died, and while he slept with Gennon as a strategic measure it was more about satisfying his conscience about what he was doing and the costs represented by that. He's like a Machiavellian with empathy and the ability to question his motives or values, which is the problem. He creates a separation through a charismatic facade and philosophizing in the way he does, so in that respect it's no doubt he would become Femto as his humanity was the thing he was always trying to compartmentalize, but that's because his humanity did exist and posed a real danger to his ambitions. The role he has put himself in requires that he be oblivious to what is going on in his interior. It's an incredibly fragile balance and Casca states it outright a few times. He's cold because he uses his will and intellect to deliberately numb himself to his own doubts and apprehensions about what he's doing, but he very clearly has them, in fact that seems like the core aspect of his characterization. So yeah I agree he's deluded, but it's because he's an incongruous mix of genuinely human and genuinely exceptional human traits coupled to an impossible ambition.
A person that is looking through the world in terms of their ambitions is going to use people, especially when your ambition necessitates you being propped up by people like that. But him having misgivings our doubts about it isn't mutually exclusive, the fact that he does have those doubts is what jeopardizes his efforts in the first place since his only method for coping with them is narcotizing himself to them and pushing ahead with just his will. He was like string tuned too tightly between these two opposing influences, of course he was going to snap.
edit: Griffith also could not have sacrificed the band of the falcon if he didn't care about them. The sacrifice is about severing the last threads of your humanity, so the band of the falcon represent that for Griffith.
Nice, I posted these on the first page but this is a Zodd and a Behelit my Fiance made for me. She is still working on the Zodd. Both are made from Super Sculpey.
Nice, I posted these on the first page but this is a Zodd and a Behelit my Fiance made for me. She is still working on the Zodd. Both are made from Super Sculpey.
Have a few Figmas, but nothing like the Berserk figures. Been wanting them for a while now. If that Heather statue from SH3 hadn't been announced, I would've bought those as my Christmas present to myself this year. :/
Umop is right. Saying Guts is automatically somehow immune to causality is a disservice to his character imo. It boils all his struggling and fighting down to a MacGuffin instead of it being a statement about Guts himself as a person.
Have a few Figmas, but nothing like the Berserk figures. Been wanting them for a while now. If that Heather statue from SH3 hadn't been announced, I would've bought those as my Christmas present to myself this year. :/
