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[cartman414]

Yep, that’s the unfortunate state of tax reform discussion in US.

Especially now, there are not many centrists left around. It’s either full on MAGA or very much “progressive “ left.

Centrists have been pushed out. That said it’s also happening in Europe. There is nothing exciting in center-left or center-right vs populist tropes.

The "center" in the us has been to the right of other countries, especially in the aftermath of Reaganomics doing a number on the middle class.

The "progressive" left at least wants to restore some sense of balance.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yep, that’s the unfortunate state of tax reform discussion in US.

Especially now, there are not many centrists left around. It’s either full on MAGA or very much “progressive “ left.

Centrists have been pushed out. That said it’s also happening in Europe. There is nothing exciting in center-left or center-right vs populist tropes.

Politics, business or parents controlling a household are the exact same.

When anyone pushes a middle ground rule, it's boring and usually nobody gets their true want. It'll likely be everyone concedes a bit to reach an agreement. And progbably wont lead to big uproars.

Going an extreme end leads to the opposite. There's a clear winner and loser and that leads to conflict. And for industries like media that rely on conflict and stupidity for ratings, nothing makes them happier boosting ratings. If every government or politcal party sat at a table or debated on a stage calmy agreeing to some give and take, it would be boring as hell. That's why everyone enjoys watching US debates. It's like 50% personal insults and 50% stand up comedy.

 

[MarkMe2525]

I'm all about this.. good on them. We should have some bargaining chips against our corporate lords.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yeah, for example if we are talking same DC area, moving couple of hours South to Richmond, VA or couple of hours Northwest to West Virginia, PA, or Western Maryland could cut those costs tremendously.

Personally I couldn’t do it since all my friends are here, relatives are nearby, public schools are good (let’s not even start on cost of private schools in US, lol), and I would be bored in the countryside.

That said, I am married with dual income (wife makes as much as I do), and I have had decent luck with house purchases (got in with very low rate on my current place). And we have been doing decent enough on investing for retirement.

Without that sort of a support I would probably be somewhere in the Midwest doing IT for an insurance company and paying less than 1/2 living cost for like 25% less salary. Living in major US metro on even what used to be a good salary (say $80-100k) sucks.

I dont think people realize that living in cheaper places doesn't mean the salary tanks too. No doubt, the wages will be less but not drastically matching. If homes in a town two hours away from a metro hub are 50% cheaper, it doesn't mean finding a job there you'll get paid 50% less. As you said, the cost of living ratio improves as the salary reductions will likely be not as bad. Combined with the upfront absolute dollar costs someone has to do with down payments for a home, there's big difference between saving up for a modest down payment on a $500k house vs a $1.5M house. Unless someone already has moolah or established with home equity and all youre doing is rotating from one home to another, good luck trying to stack up enough pure cash for a $1.5M home down payment.

 

[MarkMe2525]

So I took the time to go through the comments and I just can't relate to the mindset of many people who have contributed to this discussion. To the rank and file who are against unions, if you had the choice, you would rather not have a collective bargaining agreement with your employer? I just can't wrap my head around simping to our corporate overlords so they can rake in more profit. To be ok with being fired on a whim so your COO can make his bonus. We have no leverage to bring to the table, productive employee or not.

I've watched some of the best performers in a company be let go simply because they worked there long enough to climb the pay ladder. Their loyalty and deligence was a one way street to unemployment. I was a top ten, award winning sales person 3 years in a row (in a company of over 1,500) to have my commission constantly fucked with. Why? Because I did too well, because my little sliver of the pie was too much. "You did great this year....again. To show you how much we value you, I'm gonna cut your pay by $5,000. Great job, take this $500 prepaid visa card." "Right to work" my ass. Fuck the corporate world. Of course unionization isn't perfect, nothing we create is, but it's got to be better than having to tip toe up to the powers at be (like little Timmy) to ask for some more porridge



Phew... That might have been a little much

 

[PropellerEar]

Relax warrior. Were just having fun here. Why are you so angry when it comes to discussions like this?

If it makes you feel better just keep bragging about your union perks and severance pay out like before.

You are a joke , you just don't even realize it yourself. Your last argument was bragging about hand me down tired corpo laptops as some meaningful non union perk.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You are a joke , you just don't even realize it yourself. Your last argument was bragging about hand me down tired corpo laptops as some meaningful non union perk.

You got to learn sarcasm. I even had the smiley face as a signal. And I almost never post emotes or gifs.

But since youre a visual guy, I guess that's the best way to make you understand. Relax and calm down. This isn't a long drawn out union/management negotiation here. It's gaf.

 

[PropellerEar]

You got to learn sarcasm. I even had the smiley face as a signal. And I almost never post emotes or gifs.

But since youre a visual guy, I guess that's the best way to make you understand. Relax and calm down. This isn't a long drawn out union/management negotiation here. It's gaf.

 

[Fess]

US can be a very very expensive place to live if we are talking major metropolitan areas.

It’s high rent prices ($2-5K for 1bdroom) or high housing prices. You also have high mortgage rates, high condo fees (can be $1k in a high rise), utilities/internet/mobile, car payments (car is necessary outside a small handful of places), house and car insurance, and let’s not forget ruinous cost of healthcare even with employer insurance support at work. And throw in surging food prices.

That Bethesda software engineering salary in a pricey DC suburb gets burned through very fast. And if they have kids, daycare around DC can run $1,800 to $2,500 a month per kid easily depending on the age. And you better be putting away money for college because that shit is expensive as well.

Salaries aren’t the only thing that matters. Cost of living is a huge factor.

Edit: on the subject of remote work. A lot of employers are cracking down on that and requiring at least hybrid presence in the offices. Remote jobs have an incredible number of applicants now days and are not easy to get at all. Talking about technical fields at least.

So you can’t just move out to say Idaho or Ohio and enjoy lower cost of living. Good jobs are much harder to get there.

Excellently said.

In modern times (right now past few years where interest rates/mortgages are sky high PLUS home prices remained high), it's got to a point I think for a lot of people you got to seriously make a decision if you cant take the pressure or cost of living in a metro city, you got to scope out other places to live. If not, then youre going to be miserable trying to work for 40 years and scrape by with nothing at age 65. If someone is already established and can handle high rent and 6% mortgages, ok it's not a big deal. But for other people, at least consider it.

Just because it's much more fun in metro areas with tons of stuff to do, someone could be born and raised in a city, best HQ jobs are in meteo areas and all their core friends and fam are there, ya I get it. But it doesn't help their situation unless they can figure out how to make it work. And for me, I've always been someone who wants an earnings/cost of living situation where I'm comfortable ---- Not still scraping by when I'm 40 years old. I scraped by for 2-3 years after graduating with my entry level inventory analyst job. And there's no way I'm living like that forever.

It's up to people. I think a lot of people who dont want to move dont realize how much cheaper it can be an hour or two away. A home might be 50% cheaper.

Yeah, for example if we are talking same DC area, moving couple of hours South to Richmond, VA or couple of hours Northwest to West Virginia, PA, or Western Maryland could cut those costs tremendously.

Personally I couldn’t do it since all my friends are here, relatives are nearby, public schools are good (let’s not even start on cost of private schools in US, lol), and I would be bored in the countryside.

That said, I am married with dual income (wife makes as much as I do), and I have had decent luck with house purchases (got in with very low rate on my current place). And we have been doing decent enough on investing for retirement.

Without that sort of a support I would probably be somewhere in the Midwest doing IT for an insurance company and paying less than 1/2 living cost for like 25% less salary. Living in major US metro on even what used to be a good salary (say $80-100k) sucks.

I dont think people realize that living in cheaper places doesn't mean the salary tanks too. No doubt, the wages will be less but not drastically matching. If homes in a town two hours away from a metro hub are 50% cheaper, it doesn't mean finding a job there you'll get paid 50% less. As you said, the cost of living ratio improves as the salary reductions will likely be not as bad. Combined with the upfront absolute dollar costs someone has to do with down payments for a home, there's big difference between saving up for a modest down payment on a $500k house vs a $1.5M house. Unless someone already has moolah or established with home equity and all youre doing is rotating from one home to another, good luck trying to stack up enough pure cash for a $1.5M home down payment.

The numbers you’re throwing around here are absurd. You’re burning cash. I take it you’re in the 40s, and married with kids, so I assume you’re not out on night clubs. What exactly are you doing in a big metro city that you can’t do elsewhere? Living there to be close to a fancy job seems like a bad deal if things are that expensive. How much do you have left each month for games and other hobbies when all is paid enjoying that metro lifestyle?

 

[Bkdk]

The western gaming indistry is in a huge bubble still. Probably most tech jobs overall, though outsourcing seems to be getting more intense now. Not even India, South America and Eastern Europe are also hit place for tech jobs outsourcing. Once they compare the pay and actual skills and job performance it’s no longer worth it.

 

[StereoVsn]

The numbers you’re throwing around here are absurd. You’re burning cash. I take it you’re in the 40s, and married with kids, so I assume you’re not out on night clubs. What exactly are you doing in a big metro city that you can’t do elsewhere? Living there to be close to a fancy job seems like a bad deal if things are that expensive. How much do you have left each month for games and other hobbies when all is paid enjoying that metro lifestyle?

The prices are similar in most modern US metropolitan areas, minus NYC, SF and perhaps LA which are the worst.

Metro areas are where the jobs are like I said. The numbers are reality which illustrate that US cost of living is high.

Also, I don’t live downtown, lol. I am in suburbs. Not that you are going to see much cheaper prices in metro suburbs that are in a reasonable commute distance in a good neighborhood with good schools.

 

[Fess]

Metro areas are where the jobs are like I said.

Specific type of jobs? It’s a huge country, everything can’t be laser focused to the big cities can it?
Even if it is, wouldn’t it be nice to have a small house and lot outside a small town, a place to own with a lawn and a garden? small enough that it’s not too much work, big enough that you feel like you have some private space outside.

I get that country life is boring for a youngster but when you’ve settled down it’s nice. But I don’t know the US and how far out you would have to move to get outside the concrete areas and to a nice calm area.

 

[StereoVsn]

Specific type of jobs? It’s a huge country, everything can’t be laser focused to the big cities can it?
Even if it is, wouldn’t it be nice to have a small house and lot outside a small town, a place to own with a lawn and a garden? small enough that it’s not too much work, big enough that you feel like you have some private space outside.

I get that country life is boring for a youngster but when you’ve settled down it’s nice. But I don’t know the US and how far out you would have to move to get outside the concrete areas and to a nice calm area. Longer drives than 30-45 minute to get to work is no fun.

Vast majority of well paying white color jobs are near metro centers.

I am in mid 40s with kids so far from being a youngster. And for younger folks, especially out of college, the job situation is pretty much the same.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Wouldn't this protect them from layoffs?

No. Layoffs happen regardless. Being laid off is different from being fired.

 

[Fess]

Vast majority of well paying white color jobs are near metro centers.

I am in mid 40s with kids so far from being a youngster. And for younger folks, especially out of college, the job situation is pretty much the same.

Sounds brutal. And it’s not possible to find a decent job with a lower salary in a smaller town and still end up having more money left when bills are paid compared to a having a well paid job and live in a big city? How big is the salary and living cost difference? Is it always worth it to aim for the big metro jobs?

 

[Toons]

So I took the time to go through the comments and I just can't relate to the mindset of many people who have contributed to this discussion. To the rank and file who are against unions, if you had the choice, you would rather not have a collective bargaining agreement with your employer? I just can't wrap my head around simping to our corporate overlords so they can rake in more profit. To be ok with being fired on a whim so your COO can make his bonus. We have no leverage to bring to the table, productive employee or not.

I've watched some of the best performers in a company be let go simply because they worked there long enough to climb the pay ladder. Their loyalty and deligence was a one way street to unemployment. I was a top ten, award winning sales person 3 years in a row (in a company of over 1,500) to have my commission constantly fucked with. Why? Because I did too well, because my little sliver of the pie was too much. "You did great this year....again. To show you how much we value you, I'm gonna cut your pay by $5,000. Great job, take this $500 prepaid visa card." "Right to work" my ass. Fuck the corporate world. Of course it isn't perfect, nothing we create is, but it's got to be better than having to tip toe up to the powers at be (like little Timmy) to ask for some more porridge



Phew... That might have been a little much

Yep. Corporations brainwashed a lot of people into thinking there's some virtue in giving up your time, happiness, sense of fulfillment, etc to be a cog in the machine when the reality is like you said. They can give you all the money in the world but you have no power in a corporation, zero agency, and should their whims change against you, you have no bargaining chip to fight for yourself with. Doesnt matter how big your check is, you're still on a lengthy ball and chain.

Edited for unintended redundancies

 

[MarkMe2525]

Wouldn't this protect them from layoffs?

The corporation would be beholding to a previously agreed upon process for layoffs. It does provide a buffer for employees, and keeps the powers at be from just laying off a sector for a stock bump. It's better than nothing for sure

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yep. Corporations brainwashed a lot of people into thinking there's some virtue in giving up your time, happiness, sense of fulfillment, etc to be a cog in the machine when the reality is like you said. They can give you all the money in the world but you have no power in a corporation, zero agency, and should their whims change against you, you have no bargaining chip to fight for yourself with. Doesnt matter how big your check is, you're still on a lengthy ball and chain.

Edited for unintended redundancies

Believe it or not, many people want freedom to work, want to work without being leashed to union rules, paying dues, and want more autonomy to do jobs and career changes, and dont believe that just because someone has been at a job longer it means they get paid more. And nobody with an ounce of ambition wants to be held to baked in pay tiers.

Also, anyone who wants any kind of management job would never go union because those jobs cant even be unionized unless there is special agreement.

As for power struggle, union workers have zero power. Youre binded by an agreement like a Borg collective where everyone has to live by the majority opinion, while the management staff which goes from junior supervisor to CEO (and anyone in between) call the shots. Remember, non-union roles such as management and HR do the hiring and firing, not unions.

Youre a drone Toons. Have some ambition and live a little at a career.

 

[nemiroff]

Believe it or not, many people want freedom to work, want to work without being leashed to union rules, paying dues, and want more autonomy to do jobs and career changes, and dont believe that just because someone has been at a job longer it means they get paid more. And nobody with an ounce of ambition wants to be held to baked in pay tiers.

Also, anyone who wants any kind of management job would never go union because those jobs cant even be unionized unless there is special agreement.

As for power struggle, union workers have zero power. Youre binded by an agreement like a Borg collective where everyone has to live by the majority opinion, while the management staff which goes from junior supervisor to CEO (and anyone in between) call the shots. Remember, non-union roles such as management and HR do the hiring and firing, not unions.

Youre a drone Toons. Have some ambition and live a little at a career.

Perhaps you reside in an unusual part of the world where common sense is not king, idk.. I recommend spending time in a Nordic country to understand how well the systems can work. I'm employed at a high-tech company with 10,000 mostly unionized workers. It ranks among the most profitable in its sector, with some of the most content and efficient employees (AFAIK..) In this region, employers and unions are infamously symbiotic, with the general understanding that unions mostly only intervene in cases of illegal employer actions. The Borg

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Perhaps you reside in an unusual part of the world where common sense is not king, idk.. I recommend spending time in a Nordic country to understand how well the systems can work. I'm employed at a high-tech company with 10,000 mostly unionized workers. It ranks among the most profitable in its sector, with some of the most content and efficient employees (AFAIK..) In this region, employers and unions are infamously symbiotic, with the general understanding that unions mostly only intervene in cases of illegal employer actions. The Borg

Were not talking about unions in Scandanavia. The topic at hand is unions at Bethesda for gaming workers who can make lots of money already. The US/Canada union/management views are different than Europe/Japan systems.

Anecdotal examples like yours can be done by anyone. Every big company I've worked at are all non-union except maybe the warehouse departments.

The biggest companies in the world which are mostly tech, banking, pharma are mostly non-union employees.

 

[nemiroff]

Were not talking about unions in Scandanavia. The topic at hand is unions at Bethesda for gaming workers who can make lots of money already. The US/Canada union/management views are different than Europe/Japan systems.

Anecdotal examples like yours can be done by anyone. Every big company I've worked at are all non-union except maybe the warehouse departments.

The biggest companies in the world which are mostly tech, banking, pharma are mostly non-union employees.

I appreciate the reply to hear different angles from different people around the world. Yeah, it does indeed seem different in the US. Having someone backing up your common sense rights is an integral part of the system where I live. It's sad it's not like that everywhere. And btw I usually never even hear from my union unless I request it (newsletters not counted) or when offered courses on f.ex. personal salary negotiations, medical emergency training etc.

 

[bumpkin]

Not sure unionization was really intended for this type of compensation level

LOL at the DevOps role making more than the actual software engineers.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I appreciate the reply to hear different angles from different people around the world. Yeah, it does indeed seem different in the US. Having someone backing up your common sense rights is an integral part of the system where I live. It's sad it's not like that everywhere. And btw I usually never even hear from my union unless I request it (newsletters not counted) or when offered courses on f.ex. personal salary negotiations, medical emergency training etc.

From what I remember, a key difference between unions in US/Canada vs other regions is internal collaboration and give and take. US/Canada unions are independently run organizations recruiting members to go against management. And the biggest sticklers are typically wages/job security. And never about product quality or efficiencies. It's a one-way street of gimme me more money or we'll strike and not show up.

Out of all the union/gov bickering I see on Ontario regarding any government job that has a union (ie teachers or medical workers). I have never seen once anything about the union side offering anything back in return for their asks. Thats why there is conflict.

In decent non-union jobs (like any office worker), your pay and promotions correlate to job performance and role (not tenure where the longest employed guy in the office gets paid the most by default) and there's always expectations on improvement, targets, improving and learning. In return, you get paid more. Even if it's something not related to your job, there's always expectations to improve and learn new stuff for sake of rounding out skills and showing ambition to not just coast. I do finance, and the company had a big initiative years ago about ecom learnings. I dont work in ecom, I'm not the Amazon sales rep or anything like that. But expectations are learn about some topics because it might relate and maybe one day hey, you may get interested.

Maybe European/Japan is way different in the way unions work.

 

[StereoVsn]

Sounds brutal. And it’s not possible to find a decent job with a lower salary in a smaller town and still end up having more money left when bills are paid compared to a having a well paid job and live in a big city? How big is the salary and living cost difference? Is it always worth it to aim for the big metro jobs?

There are a lot less jobs. Professional jobs are concentrated in major metro centers.

Could you find something in Nebraska, Idaho, Kentucky or Ohio as an example? Maybe, depending on the profession. But there would be 1/100 job opportunities vs big cities.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

There are a lot less jobs. Professional jobs are concentrated in major metro centers.

Could you find something in Nebraska, Idaho, Kentucky or Ohio as an example? Maybe, depending on the profession. But there would be 1/100 job opportunities vs big cities.

From my experience and industry, I'd say having a Sales role is possibly one of the better roles to have being remote or in small town living. Wont get paid as much as head office/big account sales guy, but every company needs account managers to cover regions. Most head offices are in bigger metros, but not all. So if some smaller accounts have head office in Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan, a company might hire a salesperson in that province to cover it. He'll get paid less, but that guy's cost of living will be cut in half easy.

 

[StereoVsn]

From my experience and industry, I'd say having a Sales role is possibly one of the better roles to have being remote or in small town living. Wont get paid as much as head office/big account sales guy, but every company needs account managers to cover regions. Most head offices are in bigger metros, but not all. So if some smaller accounts have head office in Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan, a company might hire a salesperson in that province to cover it. He'll get paid less, but that guy's cost of living will be cut in half easy.

Sales jobs require a certain mindset/character to succeed. They aren’t for everyone.

That said, even smaller towns/cities need IT people, lawyers, doctors, accountants, etc….

The issue is amount of those opportunities is small and the turnover is probably long as folks who get into those roles are there to get away from big cities. So you don’t have a lot of openings.

 

[Fess]

The corporation would be beholding to a previously agreed upon process for layoffs. It does provide a buffer for employees, and keeps the powers at be from just laying off a sector for a stock bump. It's better than nothing for sure

They can find a way around the rules, that’s my experience. And when the future is uncertain they’ll use consultant firms, timed contracts or for specific sectors, instead of adding more real employees they wouldn’t be able to get rid of as easily. The last in and first out rule can be dodged too. Be vary of being recommended to change work roles, may sound like a promotion but that can be a way to easily get you out by claiming that role is not needed anymore.

Unions are good but not as good for employment security as people often think, bulk layoffs happen all the time. You might get help getting back on your feet though. And you’ll not as easily be pushed into unhealthy work conditions with crazy hours and short lunch breaks or else you’re out.

 

[Fess]

So if some smaller accounts have head office in Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan, a company might hire a salesperson in that province to cover it. He'll get paid less, but that guy's cost of living will be cut in half easy.

Yeah that sounds like it should be.

But then one guy said there were shootings and what not happening in smaller (meh) cities. Are smaller cities less safe?
I would’ve thought it’s worse in the metro cities. More money, more people, more crime.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yeah that sounds like it should be.

But then one guy said there were shootings and what not happening in smaller (meh) cities. Are smaller cities less safe?
I would’ve thought it’s worse in the metro cities. More money, more people, more crime.

I;m too lazy to check crime rate per district, but I'm pretty sure holistically metro hubs have much higher crime % rates than small towns or rural areas.

Although oddly, when it comes to crazy school or shopping mall shooting sprees, it seems to skew to quiet suburbs or small town life. Not giant shooting waves in crowded New York City or other huge metros. Figure that one out.

 

[MarkMe2525]

They can find a way around the rules, that’s my experience. And when the future is uncertain they’ll use consultant firms, timed contracts or for specific sectors, instead of adding more real employees they wouldn’t be able to get rid of as easily. The last in and first out rule can be dodged too. Be vary of being recommended to change work roles, may sound like a promotion but that can be a way to easily get you out by claiming that role is not needed anymore.

Unions are good but not as good for employment security as people often think, bulk layoffs happen all the time. You might get help getting back on your feet though. And you’ll not as easily be pushed into unhealthy work conditions with crazy hours and short lunch breaks or else you’re out.

The pros outweigh the cons. As I previously mentioned, it is not a perfect system.

 

[hussar16]

smartest thing they ever did to set themselves up , sell to microsoft then protect your workers

 

[MarkMe2525]

smartest thing they ever did to set themselves up , sell to microsoft then protect your workers

Also a great selling point to attract talent.

 

[Toons]

Also a great selling point to attract talent.

Theres little to no drawbacks for the employees. Theres drawbacks for Microsoft... IF they indented to screw over the workers. In which case there should be drawbacks.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Theres little to no drawbacks for the employees. Theres drawbacks for Microsoft... IF they indented to screw over the workers. In which case there should be drawbacks.

I like the Xbox brand, but I will never have sympathy for a trillion dollar company. I hope these devs squeeze as much as they can out of the suits.