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[teiresias]

Ohio Mulls Academic 'Bill of Rights'

Oh yay.

 

[ge-man]

What a waste of time. There are so many other things that need to be fixed in education that we would be far better served by avoiding all of this political and religious all together.

 

[Drozmight]

/start petition for Washington to leave the union.

 

[fart]

:~(

 

[shoplifter]

Yeah, this has been going the rounds here in Ohio for the last week or so.

"I see students coming out having gone in without any ideological leanings one way or another, coming out with an indoctrination of a lot of left-wing issues," said bill sponsor Sen. Larry Mumper, a former high school teacher whose Republican party controls the Legislature.

He obviously hasn't bothered considering that many of those kids never lived in a diverse setting like a university...hrmm...I wonder how that might affect their political leanings...maybe like those who live in a large DIVERSE city?

Allow me to apologize again for the idiots running this state.

 

[Phoenix]

While interesting in theory, it is impractical at the university level and too easy to exploit. University learning is all about controversy and teaching controversial ideals, that's how we move on. It is interesting how they are trying to protect a students right to express themselves and perhaps I just went to the right school but I have NEVER been in a situation where any position wasn't open to debate. if you were too afraid to speak, that was your own personal problem.

 

[Piecake]

"He questioned why lawmakers should approve funding for universities with "professors who would send some students out in the world to vote against the very public policy that their parents have elected us for."




Thats rather scary...

 

[ge-man]

It is interesting how they are trying to protect a students right to express themselves and perhaps I just went to the right school but I have NEVER been in a situation where any position wasn't open to debate. if you were too afraid to speak, that was your own personal problem.

That's what I find amusing about the situation. This bill is based on the notion that all teachers are cut from liberal cloth--that is utter bullshit. I have definately seen a spectrum of opinion from my past professors and teachers. This is more of an attempt to block the proliferation of left wing ideas within schools than it is an honest attempt at fairness. They are creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Hitokage]

Our children shouldn't be taught to challenge authority!

 

[AntoneM]

"He questioned why lawmakers should approve funding for universities with "professors who would send some students out in the world to vote against the very public policy that their parents have elected us for." .

not only is the meaning of this ststement stupid as fuck, but the fact that these students (yes not only thier parents) can vote, makes the point invalid. Sure if students couldn't vote it'd just be stupid, but the truth of the matter is he's an idiot blinded by idealogy wearing a coat of stupidity inside a house of doublethink.

 

[Loki]

Somewhat related:


I hate when professors interject political/personal opinions into a conversation when there is no basis for doing so. For instance, we can be talking about Dante's Inferno, and the professor will blurt out, "there are elements in this society who would have those who procure abortions perish in a fiery inferno, which is why we must always preserve a woman's right to choose!"-- I mean, come on now. <rolleyes> That's like trolling in a university setting. For what it's worth, I have problems with that same sort of conduct in any setting, be it in real life or online; I feel that it's tasteless to speak on controversial or personal issues when it's not at all germane to the discussion.


Having a Ph.D shouldn't give one carte blanche to pontificate to a captive audience, especially when that audience is not paying to hear your more or less considered opinions; you don't have a Ph.D in "life", so please get over yourselves. If all you wanted was a pulpit, you should've joined the clergy. If such digressions flow naturally from the discussion or subject matter, then I have no problem at all, and in fact encourage it. But that's not what goes on in many instances from my experience-- what goes on is more akin to what we'd define as "trolling" here. It's like when someone walks into a thread on, say, defense spending, and says that "liberals suck." It's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand; assuming that just because the poster has a Ph.D that they should now be allowed to engage in that sort of conduct is silly imo. Especially on another person's dime.


So to sum up: If we're reading Things Fall Apart, and you'd then like to discuss the ramifications of colonialism, by all means do so; if we're reading Primo Levi's Other People's Trades, however, please don't haphazardly launch into a discourse on the evils of western hegemony and the subsequent deculturation of native peoples-- it only makes you look like an inconsiderate, overbearing idiot.

 

[Eric-GCA]

"it only makes you look like an inconsiderate, overbearing idiot."

re. Ward Churchill

I actually so this guy speak on C-SPAN, without commenting on his opinions, the guy came off as an arrogant asshole. One student who was trying to ask a question but was obviously nervous was told "whats wrong with you? you've had all this time to prepare for the question? get it right will you."

 

[MetatronM]

He questioned why lawmakers should approve funding for universities with "professors who would send some students out in the world to vote against the very public policy that their parents have elected us for."

Because not funding institutes that would normally get funding solely because they support or profess viewpoints contrary to or opposing those of the current political administration is what we call "tyranny" and/or "despotism." Jackass.

And that presumes that some massive, left-ist, educational agenda even exists.

 

[Eric-GCA]

It definately exists in California, I've never met anything other than a democratic teacher. Of course thats to be expected when the California Teachers Association is the largest contributer to the democratic party.

 

[MetatronM]

Somewhat related:


I hate when professors interject political/personal opinions into a conversation when there is no basis for doing so. For instance, we can be talking about Dante's Inferno, and the professor will blurt out, "there are elements in this society who would have those who procure abortions perish in a fiery inferno, which is why we must always preserve a woman's right to choose!"-- I mean, come on now. <rolleyes> That's like trolling in a university setting. For what it's worth, I have problems with that same sort of conduct in any setting, be it in real life or online; I feel that it's tasteless to speak on controversial or personal issues when it's not at all germane to the discussion.


Having a Ph.D shouldn't give one carte blanche to pontificate to a captive audience, especially when that audience is not paying to hear your more or less considered opinions; you don't have a Ph.D in "life", so please get over yourselves. If all you wanted was a pulpit, you should've joined the clergy. If such digressions flow naturally from the discussion or subject matter, then I have no problem at all, and in fact encourage it. But that's not what goes on in many instances from my experience-- what goes on is more akin to what we'd define as "trolling" here. It's like when someone walks into a thread on, say, defense spending, and says that "liberals suck." It's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand; assuming that just because the poster has a Ph.D that they should now be allowed to engage in that sort of conduct is silly imo. Especially on other people's dime.


So to sum up: If we're reading Things Fall Apart, and you'd then like to discuss the ramifications of colonialism, then by all means do so; if we're reading Primo Levi's Other People's Trades, however, please don't haphazardly launch into a discourse on the evils of western hegemony and the subsequent deculturation of native peoples-- it only makes you look like an inconsiderate, overbearing idiot.

This I can agree with. However, legislation PROHIBITING such actions is irresponsible, unnecessary, unlawful, and, yes, un-American.

 

[videogamer]

So to sum up: If we're reading Things Fall Apart, and you'd then like to discuss the ramifications of colonialism, then by all means do so; if we're reading Primo Levi's Other People's Trades, however, please don't haphazardly launch into a discourse on the evils of western hegemony and the subsequent deculturation of native peoples-- it only makes you look like an inconsiderate, overbearing idiot.

I once had a professor who was talking about various mental diseases. He used several Bush characteristics to describe them. Marvelous.

 

[Loki]

I don't think that government should have any involvement in such things; what I would hope, though, is that university administrators and people who observe these professors' lectures would see that this sort of unbecoming conduct is quite frequent and speak to the professors about it. Really, if I'm taking an abnormal psych course, why should I be subject to your opinions on welfare spending or illegal immigration unless it comes up naturally somehow from the material or a student asks a question regarding it?


Again, I have a problem with people who behave in such a manner in general, not just in an academic setting. It just irks me, no matter whether the opinion being expressed is in accord with my own views or not. It's just a matter of "what is proper" in certain settings and what is proper in polite conversation, in my opinion. It has nothing at all to do with academia specifically-- it's just that that's what this topic is about, so I figured I'd share my opinions by relating it to the university setting.


And it's also not a matter of "well, why can't you just deal with it?"-- of course I can deal with it...but I also think that it's improper and shouldn't be condoned. Again, I feel just as agitated by this sort of conduct even when the views being expressed are in line with my own beliefs. It's just improper conduct imo. Don't know what else to say, really, but that's how I see it.

 

[videogamer]

I don't think that government should have any involvement in such things; what I would hope, though, is that university administrators and people who observe these professors' lectures would see that this sort of unbecoming conduct is quite frequent and speak to the professors about it. Really, if I'm taking an abnormal psych course, why should I be subject to your opinions on welfare spending or illegal immigration?

I dunno if that is targeted at me or not, but the professor did not talk much about politics at all. He occasionally made oblique political references or used Bush as an example.

 

[Piecake]

I have a prof that regales us with stories of his youth, the stupidity of neo-cons, and the greatness of left wing ideas. The only problem is, is that he ends the class in 30 minutes, and barely gets around to teaching American history, like he is suppossed to do.

I swear, i have more notes from one class of my British history class than all my notes in my American history class. Hope that senile old bastard doesnt grade hard, or else its going to be a pain.

 

[whytemyke]

this is all bullshit

 

[Loki]

I once had a professor who was talking about various mental diseases. He used several Bush characteristics to describe them. Marvelous.

See, now that professor is somewhat similar to the breed I've described, but at least (s)he was more subtle about it and related it to the material being discussed. This is fine imo.


I guess in general I just have a problem with people overly politicizing things or moralizing to people. In general. I'm not that way in real life, and I don't see why anyone else should be either; these things have their proper forums.



EDIT: Hammy, no, it was directed at MetatronM's post right above yours.

 

[Deleted member 4784]

I think Horowitz put the situation best with the statement, "They can be a good professor, liberal or conservative, provided they pursue an educational mission and not a political agenda."

I happen to agree. If professors were advocating an open mindset it would be one thing, but many political science professors at universities staunchly advocate a liberal agenda alone without consideration to either the representation or condonement of opposing, conservative views. If professors do not entertain or tolerate conservative opinions, then they are not being liberal in mindset but conservative to their own ideals in regards to the curricula the present.

As for the proposition, I tend to agree and disagree with it. Although I agree that professors should not present their own personal opinion as fact or penalize their students for carrying opposing views, I believe that private schools should have the freedom to personally control the curriculum they present. That may seem like a contradiction, but I do not believe the state should have a say in private institutions. Simarly, although this bill sounds reasonable being that it would guarantee expression and limit indoctrination, I would tend to question the extent it would reach to in setting a further precedent on curricula and teaching method as a whole.

If passed, this could very well result in a double-edged sword that would set a public standard for the opinions and views a teacher may represent. The goal is to limit a teacher from limiting what is presented to what falls into their own perspective, but setting a precedent upon curricula could prevent a teacher from representing anything other than what is in agreement with the perspective of the state. IMO, the moment that we begin to control what is presented in our schools is the moment that we infringe upon the pursuit of knowledge itself. The only real solution to this problem is for the schools themselves to be diverse in the professors they choose to employ.

 

[videogamer]

The only real solution to this problem is for the schools themselves to be diverse in the professors they choose to employ.

Many science professors are often chosen because of their publication productivity and grant money status. It would be ridiculous to add some kind of question like, "do you oppose killing little babies for stem cell research?" Hopefully schools aren't doing it now, but to legislate or force that kind of question would add an unnecessary barrier to the job.

Also, how would an ideologically diverse set of poly sci professors ensure that they would not simply pursue a diverse political agenda? Of course, this statement assumes that there is indeed a liberal bias in poly sci departments.

 

[Loki]

Many science professors are often chosen because of their publication productivity and grant money status. It would be ridiculous to add some kind of question like, "do you oppose killing little babies for stem cell research?"

Yeah, anything like that would obviously be totally out of line. Waychel, as far as I can tell, is speaking strictly of poli sci courses, which are something of a gray area (re: advocacy of partisan viewpoints) given the subject matter; personally, I was discussing the conduct of professors in courses that are not expressly political/ethical in nature (e.g., poli sci or philosophy courses). I was also more concerned with the manner in which such personal, off-topic opinions made their way into the dialogue (i.e., did it follow naturally from the discussion or the subject matter or was it blatantly off-topic) than anything else. So long as what is being expressed is pursuant to the fulfillment of your educational duties as a professor, or is an outgrowth of the natural progression of the conversation, then I have no problem with it at all.


Like I said, I just hate moralizing in general, and people who overly politicize everything. It's one of the big reasons that I disagree with proselytization-- which is something I've spoken against numerous times on this forum-- despite my staunch Christian beliefs. It's just...misguided.

 

[KingGondo]

While completely unrelated political banter is uncalled for, there is NOTHING more boring than a class in which the professor tries to be "democratic." When everything's up for interpretation by the (largely) moronic students, you tend to get a lot of ridiculous opinions.